◊ Talanik

Eh, now that I think about it, trying to pick which things to use is kind of moot, it will depend on what other itemization we get on our off-set pieces. We haven't even seen Trinkets/Rings/necks/etc.

 

kbranch

I just posted the first release of my feral DPS simulator (Download link, source link). The testing has almost entirely been done by me, so I'm sure there are a few problems and bugs left, but it seems pretty decent. Any attempts to break it or identify errors without feeding it bad input would be much appreciated.

'Branchsim.exe' is the simulator itself, which reads the config file and runs one simulation. 'frontend.bat' lets you easily view and edit config options, run the simulation, and determine stat weights. It can also parse Rawr character files for gear, enchants, trinkets, buffs, talents, and glyphs. The stat weight option should use all available cores to run concurrent simulations. It works fine on a single core Linux system and a dual core Windows system for me, but please let me know if there are any issues with that. More details on usage can be found in 'readme.txt'.

The frontend is a Python script converted to an exe in an attempt to keep people from having to install Python to run it, but all that seems to have gotten me is a 6 MB executable and a dependency on Microsoft's Visual C++ 2008 Redistributable Package. I might have to rethink that in the future, but for now you may or may not have to install that for the frontend to run.

Interface differences aside, the simulation itself differs from FBN slightly in that it focuses more on bleed uptime and less on FB usage. I've tried to keep the cycle logic fairly simple because I wanted to model a rotation that a skilled human could realistically pull off on their own (hence less emphasis on FB). I've also done my best to make the code fairly easy to understand, I'd appreciate any comments on the cycle logic (which is pretty much confined to the ChooseNextAttack() function). Uncommenting "#define DEBUG" on line 34 of branchsim.cpp makes it display fairly detailed information about everything that happens in a single fight.

 

Talishunda

This would serve no point. When Beserk casts it will cancel Tiger's Fury.

I don't know if this has been pointed out yet, I didn't read past the first page.

 

a civilian

That was an undocumented 3.1 change. I don't think it was mentioned in this thread yet though.

 

Isambaard

The macro can still be quite nice if you're one of the many cats who ensures they tiger's fury at low energy and berserk at high energy. Personally I don't macro them together but the more I think of it the less sense it makes NOT to ensure I TF before Berserk every time. At worst it is no gain, at best I ensure I Berserk with as close to a full energy bar as possible.

 

a civilian

The disadvantage is that you waste the Tiger's Fury buff: "Increases damage done by 80 for 6 sec." It falls off when you gain Berserk.

 

Boevis

One has to wonder if that's intended. I also wonder if that 80 damage/6 sec is still being included in all the sims/spreadsheets/rawr DPS.

I think it's fairly simple to adjust rotations to involve more energy pooling to Berserk use, and not using Berserk until 14 seconds after a TF. You should try using as much of the energy as possible during those 6 seconds to take advantage of the damage multipliers on our abilities (yet another instance of Shred > Rake?), 8 seconds after the TF Buff fades = 80 energy + the remainder + 10 for the GCD of activating Berserk = 90-100 energy, fairly ideal. Since Berserk lasts 15 seconds + 6 seconds of TF + 8 seconds of pooling = 29 seconds, this gives a 1 second window for lag before you'll start pushing back the cooldown (30 seconds) on TF. Amusingly, this makes the 4t7 set bonus next to worthless.

 

ithecho84

That would still mean doing nothing while pooling energy. Easier said than done, especially when SR or rip is about to fall off, or you're not taking advantage of shred glyph. It's still probably better to TF to gain energy and then Berserk. TF will be there when Berserk is on cooldown anyways, so having it up 5/6 times makes it acceptable.

Edit-Also that's an interesting point about TF being simulated. If it isn't, quick mental math puts it at approximately 30-50 dps increase from the 80 damage increase alone, mostly dependent on how many specials you can fit in and obviously scaling slightly with your haste rating.

 

kalbear

Ideally you'd use TF immediately prior to reapplying rip and rake, since they gain damage bonuses on application and do not recheck. The disadvantage here is that if you're waiting for TF to expire, you'll almost be done with your rip and will be done with rake when you go to berserk, which means less cheap shreds.

Waiting 14 seconds means 140 energy + likely one CC proc (it's about 75% chance of one), which should be enough to reapply a mangle if necessary, a second rake, and SR while having around 70 energy for berserk.

 

kbranch

Rip and Rake don't benefit from weapon damage, only AP. Even FB is purely AP, only Mangle, Shred, and white hits scale with weapon damage.

 

kalbear

Gah. I had thought it was a straight AP gain and not weapon damage. If that's the case there's no real reason to worry about applying rip and rake ahead of time or during the TF bonus, and it's actually much better to do so after it wears off during the buildup phase to get cheaper shreds. Good to know.

 

Vinen

Honestly, I don’t believe it is that simple. What happens if you take into trinkets into consideration?

 

foxglove

Can anyone confirm that TF does not actually increase the damage of the bleeds? The tooltip says "Increases damage done by 80." (Tiger's Fury - Spell - World of Warcraft) That doesn't sound like base "weapon" damage to me, but it's not exactly very specific.

I've always used TF right before bleeds, under the assumption that it increased the damage of the bleed for the duration. If they don't, that's a pretty significant change to my rotation.

Edit: Looks like it is in fact weapon damage. The "Effect" is "Apply Aura: Mod Damage Done (1) Value: 80"--same format as Weapon Damage - Spell - World of Warcraft. I'll try it on a test dummy to be sure.

 

◊ Talanik

Even if it had increased the bleed damage, would it have been worth holding back on your Tigers Fury cooldown while waiting for your bleeds to fall off? I typically pop it every cooldown, given ~3 seconds leeway for me to burn through my current energy to get to >20. Waiting any longer could possibly add up to the point where you're actually missing 1-2 possible TF's. Or, conversely, if you were at high energy when your bleeds fell off, and got several OOC procs while trying to burn down your energy - not only are you then wasting TF CDs, but Bleed uptime as well.

On the issue of wasting the 80 dmg/6 seconds when Berserking, is there a definite on whether its better to just waste the buff to guarentee a full energy bar at Berserk without having to pool your energy and potentially waste bleed uptimes and the like?

 

mbox15

Did anyone have a hard time switching from 2T7/2T8 to 4T8 (set-bonus-wise)? I found that with 2T7/2T8 I would constantly have a 5 CP Savage Roar up as well as of course a 5 CP Rip, but with 4T8, I'd keep only a 1 or 2 CP (depending if I crit) Savage Roar up, to make the most use of the extension from the set bonus. I've only had it for about a week so the fact that it's new is most probably why I'm having difficulty adjusting. It just seems like it was much easier to keep everything up with 2T7/2T8, whereas with 4T8 everything is just barely hanging on.

I know the general rule is to keep everything up (in order of priority of course), but specifically for 4T8, is there an optimal amount of CP I should be keeping Savage Roar up with? Is it bad form to be overwriting Mangle a lot to desynchronize it with Rake?

 

Rainman5419

After repeated attempts I've finally succeeded in convincing the guild blood DKs to hit me w/ Hysteria, but at the cost of aggro problems. I normally build buffs/debuffs, TF, then Berserk+Hysteria at 30sec-45sec in. In 10-mans our prot pally seems to think there are better targets for HoS, and tells me to simply stop attacking. Ignoring the opportunity for crit streaks at the start, what is going wrong here? Adding cower into parts of my rotation seems an underwhelming solution.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...ainman5419.png

 

◊ Thaeryn

Your paladin needs to improve their own threat. I will usually engage at the exact time our warrior pulls with a faerie fire followed by a mangle, rake, shred, and into a TF/Berserk cycle. He holds it just fine. The one time I got a Hysteria while doing that, I definitely pulled off of him, but if you are giving your paladin (much higher theoretical TPS than a warrior) a 30-45 second lead, you shouldn't be having issues at all. You might check to see if your tank is getting a tricks/MD on the pull as well. Conniving rogues and lazy hunters could be making the situation worse.

 

Pelf

Perhaps you should just delay your Hysteria+Berserk until 1 or 2 TF cycles in?

 

Boevis

Depending on fight length, waiting an extra cycle can be horribly costly in terms of your DPS. My guild understands the power of Hysteria+Berserk and I will always have a Salv reserved especially on fights like Hodir and Iron Council which have the high possibility of another damage boosting buff.

Of the classes without an aggro drop (DK, Druid, Warrior, Shaman), we have the highest burst potential, so I don't know who your paladins think they're saving their Salv for.

 

Vaccine

The problem is with your tank threat. I usually Berserk+ Hysteria as early as 10-15 seconds into the fight and don't pull aggro.

 

Cliffjumper

I've had issues with this on Vezax, which we use a DK to tank. One of my favorite talents in the game is Vigilance, though. If we use our warrior to tank, I yell at him to put Vigilance on me and all my threat problems are solved.

Who is your prot pally using his HoS on most of the time in your 10 mans, if he thinks you're not a good target for it? I can see him wanting to save it on Hodir, because of the insane buffs casters receive, but I'm curious to hear who exactly he's using it on.

 

Pelf

I hear about this so much, I'm curious as to whether any of you know why, of the two DKs in our main raids, neither of them have a Blood DPS spec. Is there some reason that they would always be Unholy or Frost? Is Blood actually inferior and the guilds where ferals are getting Hysteria are just encouraging their DKs to spec Blood for that purpose?

 

Murna

Well our guild for example rarely has an enhancer. Since many Hunters are Survival and not Marksmanship we need our DK to be blood for +10% AP.

 

Boevis

Personal DPS wise, all 3 specs of DK are very very close, with Unholy taking the advantage on Multi-target fights, Frost dominates Hodir, but Blood seems to have pulled ahead on the other single target fights, this is likely due to self-hysteria and is likely equal to frost without.

DK's provide the following buffs:
Blood: 10% AP, Hysteria, Mark of Blood (optional)
Frost: 20% Attack Speed Debuff, 20% Melee Haste
Unholy: 13% Spell Damage, Anti-Magic Zone (optional)
Additionally, all tank spec DK's will pick up the 20% Attack Speed Debuff. Blood is currently the strongest tanking spec for DKs.

10% AP can be provided by a Marksman Hunter or Enh Shaman
20% Attack Speed Debuff can be provided by any tank
20% Melee Haste can be provided by an Enh Shaman, 16% can be provided by any Shaman
13% Spell Damage can be provided by an Affliction Warlock or Moonkin, but only Unholy DK's can effectively do it AoE. Any warlock can do 10% Spell Damage.

Assuming you want one DK tank, and considering Dual Specs, if you have 1 DK he should be Blood(tank)/Unholy regardless of what other classes you have. Ebon Plague (the 13% Spell Damage) is just too powerful on AoE fights, and Unholy does decently on single target. If you have 2 and an Enh Shaman, you'll want Blood(tank)/Blood(dps) and Blood(dps)/Unholy, without the Enh Shaman you probably want Frost/Unholy instead, the extra 4% Haste being worth it for single Targets over an extra Hysteria.

 

eMagdAeH

Even holding HoS for ranged on Hodir isn't really optimal. Hodir is tauntable and thus allowing ranged to pull (pending the tank is great with reaction times) will allow for a giant threat boost for the tank. I'll submit that it takes a lot of coordination between the tank and the ranged, but this is how we have been doing it for a few weeks and find that it allows for a bit more DPS when attempting hard mode. HoS is saved for melee simply because of the distance threat modifier.