Cat DPS Rotation - Page 53

Kenshinji · 03/12/09, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

Hmm.

In 22 seconds we'll have savage roar (25 energy), rip (30 energy) and ferocious bite (35 energy). We would have about 2.5 rakes (35 energy each), 1.5 mangles (34 energy) and then as many shreds as we can fit. Without shreds at all, we're looking at 25+30+35+87+51 = 228 energy alone.

However, we're going to also get 60 energy every 30 seconds (so 44 energy for 22 seconds) and we should get at least one OoC proc, meaning we should be able to get in at least two shreds. The question becomes whether 6 yellow attacks will be able to produce 11 combo points reliably, which is almost certainly 'no'.

That also depends on the proc rate for the 2t8 OoC too though. We're looking at close to 20 seconds of bleeds, all of which now have a chance to grant us another shred.

Would 7 yellow attacks, assuming OoC procs from one of our bleeds, reliably give us the needed CP to maintain the cycle? What about 8? I think the viability of 1Sr/5rip is goign to depend a lot on the bleed proc chance.

Allev · 03/13/09, 2:53 AM

It's going to be hard to say definitively which is better until we start seeing the sims/calcs/gear modeling these things. But I've got something to bring up which I've always taken as a given, which is: if you're in a situation where you'd FB if you were at 40 energy, but you have 60 energy instead, do you still FB? Or do you shred, discard a CP, and re-evaluate?

I ask this because I spent much of the afternoon playing with SimulationCraft, and couldn't find an energy threshold at which you'd want to limit FB. Now, this may be because of SC's relatively new feral simulation needing to mature a little bit, but it got me thinking: is the energy efficiency the important resource here? What I mean to say is-- Could the energy be worth "less" to the ending cycle (since it doesn't need more CP generation) than it is to the new (which gets more energy with an earlier FB).

While the traditional wisdom is "FB at as low energy as possible", does this instead shift to "FB as early as possible, regardless of energy" when the next cycle's energy (and in turn, CPs/SR uptime/Rip uptime) is more important than a single shred's energy conversion?

nightcrowler · 03/13/09, 3:09 AM

To Allev: also in my sim I don't put a limit on FB energy: using FB soon > using FB efficiently expecially after the "max 30 energy" patch.

I've done a first change to my simulator. I simply added the new set bonuses, I didn't change other piece of code, the code should "self-adjust" but I don't know if I need to come with something completly new.

Bad News: 2T8+2T7 > 4T8.

The best cycle with 4T8 seems to be 1SR/5RIP/5FB, average cycle time is about 25-26 seconds, you will do a 2 FB every 3 RIP on average.

Those are only preliminary test.

Mowen · 03/13/09, 6:40 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

BiS really isn't that subjective, and there's quite a few upgrades for you to get

With the new patch out soon this matters less, but is there a definative list of BiS for feral druids out there?

Algroth · 03/13/09, 7:20 AM

Just a thought on 2t8:

As of now OOC is normalized to 3.5ppm (correct me if I am wrong, it is really early in the morning) on our base attack speed, which averages out to about 1 proc per 17 attacks. Now lets see what happens if we have the same rate on our Rip/Rake ticks assuming 100% uptime:
Rip: ticks once every 2 seconds -> 30 ticks/min
Rake: ticks once every 3 seconds -> 20 ticks/min

So an additional 50 chances per minute to get an OOC proc, which is around 3 extra ppms. Assuming you spend all the procs on shred you get an additional 126 energy per minute, effectively increasing your energy regen by ~2/second.

With current gear levels the average damage from shred is around 150DPE, which is 18900 damage. So with the set bonus alone (not including stat increases from gear), we see a 315 dps increase assuming ideal circumstances, and this scales quite nicely.

Just some early morning back of the envelope math.

Murna · 03/13/09, 7:22 AM

This is what my RAWR suggests, 5512 DPS with all buffs.

Head: [Valorous Dreamwalker Headguard]
Neck: [Favor of the Dragon Queen]
Shoulders: [Valorous Dreamwalker Shoulderpads]
Back: [Drape of the Deadly Foe]
Chest: [Chestguard of the Recluse]
Wrist: [Wristwraps of the Cutthroat]
Hands: [Frosted Adroit Handguards]
Waist: [Belt of the Tortured]
Legs: [Leggings of the Honored]
Feet: [Dawnwalkers]
Ring1: [Surge Needle Ring]
Ring2: [Strong-Handed Ring]
Trinket1: [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
Trinket2: [Fury of the Five Flights]
Weapon: [Journey's End]
Relic: [Idol of the Ravenous Beast]

Boevis · 03/13/09, 3:09 PM

It was discussed many many pages ago.

For consistency:
Rawr v2.1.9
Only use Rare gems that are currently in game, as someone else mentioned, Being able to get an extra 4 Hit/Expertise (2 on orange gems) per gem significantly changes what item is going to appear best in slot.
Talents: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Buffs: SoE+Enhance, BoM+Imp, Unleased Rage, FI, Imp Moonkin, LotP, WF Totem+Imp, Demon Pact, PW:F+Imp, MotW+Imp, BoK+Imp, Sunder, FF, Heart of the Crusader, Savage Combat, Earth and Moon, Flask of Endless Rage, Strength Food, Bloodlust.

Options: Target Level 83, Target Armor 13083, Duration 180 (Patchwerk achievement), Mangle and Rip glyphs.

Do not use any Profession based Enchants or Gems. Currently Enchanting, Leatherworking, and Inscription are identical at 64 AP each, BS is 74.6 AP, and JC is 77, the later 2 being affected by SotF and BoK.
Head:[Valorous Dreamwalker Headguard][Arcanum of Torment]
Neck: [Favor of the Dragon Queen]
Shoulders: [Valorous Dreamwalker Shoulderpads][Greater Inscription of the Axe]
Back: [Drape of the Deadly Foe] +22 Agility
Chest: [Chestguard of the Recluse] +10 Stats
Wrist: [Wristwraps of the Cutthroat] +50 AP
Hands: [Frosted Adroit Handguards] +44 AP
Waist: [Stalk-Skin Belt]
Legs: [Leggings of the Honored] [Icescale Leg Armor]
Feet: [Footwraps of Vile Deceit] Icewalker
Finger1: [Greatring of Collision]
Finger2: [Surge Needle Ring]
Trinket1: [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
Trinket2: [Grim Toll]
Weapon: [Journey's End] Berserking
Idol: [Idol of the Ravenous Beast]
Gems used: 5x[Bold Scarlet Ruby] 1x[Precise Scarlet Ruby] 1x[Etched Monarch Topaz] (boots) 1x[Enchanted Tear] (legs) and [Relentless Earthsiege Diamond] as the Meta.

This gives a result of 5564.75 DPS

In reality, because of the absolute values of Expertise (You see no gain from +expertise rating until you reach the next expertise point) Rawr is miscalculating the reduction in Dodge as higher than actual, so a [Guardian's Twilight Opal] in the pants is actually a better choice than the Enchanted Tear - 5554.8 DPS

You'll notice I assume Mangle isn't provided by another source, if it is, this actually significantly increases the DPS - 5625

kalbear · 03/13/09, 3:20 PM

In reality, because of the absolute values of Expertise (You see no gain from +expertise rating until you reach the next expertise point) Rawr is

This was proven by (I believe) nightcrowler to be incorrect - expertise contributes in fractional values and does not need to be rounded to the next point.

Allev · 03/13/09, 3:29 PM

It was proven by rogues earlier in their forum, then verified again later in the stat values thread in class mechanics.

Mijae · 03/13/09, 5:48 PM

So, I was working on my spreadsheet last night figuring how to implement 2t8. While thinking about clearcasting this morning I've had a few brainstorms. I don't have time to do any math right now (damn day job), but wanted to get them out here for discussion.

First - It is currently accepted that the best use of a clearcast is always on Shred. This is because it has both highest energy cost and highest DPS. However, with the 2t8 bonus does it still hold true?

Taking a worst case scenario where Mangle, Rip, and Rake are all expiring at the same time. Right now I would reapply Mangle early and use Rip/Rake after they expire with order depending on if I'm at 5 CP. Maybe this isn't correct, but it's not really important. What happens if I get an OoC proc at the same time? Right now Rake and Rip are basically just abilities with long cooldowns. They have high DPE, but low DPS (compared to Shred/Mangle). With 2t8 will letting Rip or Rake drop in favor of Shred reduce clearcasting chance more than the Shred gain is worth? Is letting Mangle fall off worth the Shred gain?

My initial rough math says to continue to Shred on clearcast. However, that is very rough.

Nightcrowler - does this happen to be a configurable option in your simulator?

Second - I'm wondering if it is worth considering bear shifts again when low on energy due to Lacerate also giving clearcast procs? It will take at least 4 seconds (shift bear, Lacerate, shift cat), with possibly throwing in a Mangle (bear) also. Of course, that would really require at least 4/5 Furor. My initial guess is again no change, but interesting.

• Melthu · 03/13/09, 6:07 PM

I just tested the Savage Roar and Shred glyphs. Glyph of Shred works just like it says: the first 3 shreds you land with a Rip running will increase its duration by 2 seconds. Glyph of Savage Roar increases Savage Roar's bonus to 36%, not 31.8% like some people suspected.

Malazaar · 03/13/09, 8:00 PM

@Mijae:

At least according to my napkin math it's Mangle > Rake > Shred > Rip for me within clearcasts. Rip may even be better than Shred if you are wasting combo points.

The_Spectre · 03/13/09, 10:42 PM

The 2T8 bonus gave me an idea, which is pretty far outside the proverbial box, and might be totally crazy:

Would it be worth keeping up a Lacerate 5-stack as a Cat DPS?

You'd have to switch to Bear Form every 15 seconds, wait for a single melee attack to get rage, and Lacerate. This would cost you some Cat melee swings, but is probably doable without wasting any energy with good timing and a stationary fight, as the new furor will simply let your energy keep building up. The gain would be the Lacerate DoT (including its associated clearcasting procs) and the single bear melee swing.

I couldn't determine whether this would be a net dps gain. A very rough analysis doesn't let me dismiss the idea out of hand: Trade 5 or so cat swings of 700 damage each for 5 lacerate ticks of 1000 each and a bear swing of 1500, every 15 seconds. Whether it's actually practical: I doubt it honestly. There's also the fact that you need to build the stack to consider.

Even further outside the box: also using [Wolfshead Helm] would remove the need to wait for a bear swing, and add 20 energy from the shift to boot. I'm not sure how the added energy would weigh up against the loss of stats from using a headpiece that doesn't have any.

a civilian · 03/14/09, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by The_Spectre

Even further outside the box: also using [Wolfshead Helm] would remove the need to wait for a bear swing, and add 20 energy from the shift to boot. I'm not sure how the added energy would weigh up against the loss of stats from using a headpiece that doesn't have any.

Actually, wolfshead helm is already probably the best-in-slot helmet for feral damage dealing. It was discussed a few pages back (this is my analysis); I've been trying it out since then and attained for example 6300 dps on Patchwerk this week.

nightcrowler · 03/14/09, 6:32 AM

Originally Posted by The_Spectre

The 2T8 bonus gave me an idea, which is pretty far outside the proverbial box, and might be totally crazy:

Would it be worth keeping up a Lacerate 5-stack as a Cat DPS? .

My simulator is already ready for that kind of simulation, I'll tell it to you soon.