Cat DPS Rotation - Page 54

Greyhoof · 11/02/09, 9:44 PM

At 62 procs out of 100 wraths it gives the impression that something funny is going on with omen proccing from the Pred Swiftness casts as that seems to be vastly higher than the chance of getting it from just standing there chain casting the spells. I'm fairly certain that the chance of getting that large a number of procs if it's actually only a 1 in 60 chance (base ooc proc rate on cat white attacks and specials) or so is horrifyingly low. Thus given that pred swiftness spells seem to be providing more clearcasts than we'd expect the question is exactly how many more and whether we can use that to our advantage for DPS or alternatively if it isn't a DPS gain be able to throw out heals for a minimal or zero DPS loss.

ramenchef · 11/03/09, 12:57 AM

You'd lose closer to 3 white hits due to hasted melee swings + the 1.3-1.5s spell GCD depending on haste in addition to the lost chance to also proc an OOC off those 2 melee swings. This is discounting any procs you get such as trinket and/or weapon procs.

Greyhoof · 11/03/09, 12:01 PM

Just had a test as to number of white hits lost over 100 performances of PS wrath was getting a delay of 2.5 seconds on average between the last swing before and the first swing after. Since I couldn't get hold of a WF totem for testing this isn't as useful as it could be. However without it I'm losing 1.8 melee swings on average every time I do it (my current hasted swing speed being 0.88 ((2.5-0.88)/0.88=1.8)). Even after the WF totem that's still only 2 swings lost on average so it should still be a damage gain based on my initial calculations on the last page.

Confident enough in it to give it an initial try in a raid tonight. I'll post a log here or in the WWS thread once I've tried it in a raid buffed environment. Probably will just show that I'm not that great at maintaining proper rip uptime and that it would be more of a DPS gain for me to practice that properly than mess about with this nonsense but this seems worth a try at least for a change of pace (alternatively looking at the signups I'll be stuck as the third tank on heroic beasts and won't get a chance to try it with proper raid buffs).

Current Estimates using my gear:

8688(average shred)* (0.62(estimated proc rate) - 0.033(chance omen would have procced from the two white swings)) - 1805 * 2 (two average white attacks) + 645 (average wrath (taken from Dr. Damage)) = 2134 (extra damage per execution that doesn't clip any other timers)

After an unbuffed test on a dummy I've come across two other factors I'd forgotten about, firstly being significantly below the spell hit cap which could well be enough to kill the idea on its own and secondly the extra generation of CP which made it feel a lot more comfortable working FB into my cycle without buffs.

Bearcowcat · 11/03/09, 3:27 PM

On the same note as Greyhoof's research, I was reading the moonkin beginner guide, and it said that Gift of the Wild could be used to force Omen of Clarity procs, as it hits so many targets that a proc is likely. I haven't yet tested in a raid environment, but I did check that Gift of the Wild can proc OoC.

At a cost of 1118 mana, which can be glyphed down to 559, you could do this 5 or 6 times in a fight while still conserving mana for a Rebirth.

If it was used during a lull in the fight where no other positive DPS actions can be undertaken (I'm thinking while the Jormungars are underground, and similar situations), there is no opportunity cost and it should result in a net DPS increase, even if the proc rate isn't fantastic.

Pants · 11/03/09, 4:27 PM

On forcing OoC procs, I use Nature's Grasp while regenerating energy. It has a chance to proc too.

RareBeast · 11/03/09, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by Bearcowcat

On the same note as Greyhoof's research, I was reading the moonkin beginner guide, and it said that Gift of the Wild could be used to force Omen of Clarity procs, as it hits so many targets that a proc is likely. I haven't yet tested in a raid environment, but I did check that Gift of the Wild can proc OoC.

I have certainly noticed while buffing the raid that OOC procs almost every time I cast GotW.

Greyhoof · 11/04/09, 3:26 PM

World of Logs Parse, on the downside I only got to try it twice due to having to take over on tanking the later tries.

From that particular attempt it looks like I got 5 clearcasts out of 8 attempts. 7.7k dps on a 2:20 fight with no bloodlust, hysteria, tricks, speed potions (though I could in theory have been using one pre-pull) or a spell hit debuff. White attacks lost appear to be about what I'd estimated, wrath on the other hand hits a bit harder as I hadn't thought of any decent way to estimate the effects of full raid buffs on it.

Using Gift to proc Omen the higher proc rate needs to be enough to make up for the extra 800 or so damage off the wrath itself which whilst it isn't much definitely seems to require more accurate data than I have now about the proc rates from Pred swifness spells and gift, as whilst I remember it generally procs it doesn't seem to be 100% either.

Nature's grasp on the other hand seems worth using ever spare GCD, that's one I still haven't really got used to it being castable in forms so rather forgot about.

Isambaard · 11/04/09, 5:13 PM

A quick glance through the log of that snippet of the fight tells me you're missing more than 2 white swings as you spend almost 4 seconds out of cat form due to the longer caster form GCDs. 4 white swings mean you break even, a 5th would put you in a small net loss.

Greyhoof · 11/04/09, 8:09 PM

Given it's only 8 instances it seems worth posting the surrounding events to save people digging through the combatlog just to find the relevant events as the rest of it is all just a question of how well I can play cat, which I guess is fundamentally irrelevant to whether this tactic is actually worthwhile.

Originally Posted by Combatlog

[20:20:53.866] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler 628
[20:20:54.618] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:20:54.618] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:20:55.702] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler Miss
[20:20:55.914] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:20:56.298] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler Dodge

[20:21:03.046] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2349*
[20:21:03.563] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:21:03.563] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:21:03.955] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 867 (R: 85)
[20:21:04.139] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:21:05.352] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2044*
[20:21:05.546] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:21:07.120] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2138*

[20:21:15.995] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler 785
[20:21:16.517] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:21:16.517] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:21:16.871] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 918
[20:21:16.945] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:21:18.030] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:21:18.249] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2454*

[20:21:36.721] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2173*
[20:21:36.876] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:21:36.876] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:21:37.212] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 927
[20:21:37.467] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:21:38.289] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:21:38.702] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2153*

[20:21:47.546] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2136*
[20:21:48.076] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:21:48.077] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:21:48.457] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 920
[20:21:48.717] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:21:49.454] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:21:49.940] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler 802

[20:21:57.944] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler 968
[20:21:58.083] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:21:58.083] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:21:58.483] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 813 (R: 80)
[20:21:58.655] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:21:59.440] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:21:59.827] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2208*

[20:22:13.086] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2152*
[20:22:13.671] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:22:13.671] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:22:14.000] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 769 (R: 170)
[20:22:15.057] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:22:15.358] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2177*

[20:22:43.921] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2281*
[20:22:44.577] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:22:44.592] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:22:44.592] Greyhoof's Clearcasting fades
[20:22:44.592] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:22:44.983] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler *1528*
[20:22:45.998] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:22:46.280] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *289* (O: 1983)

Attempts 1,3,4,5,6,7 all appear to have worked properly, with swing delays between 1.9 and 2.4 seconds, 0.77 is my buffed swing timer normally so on those I lost 1.5-2 swings.

The worrying ones are 2 where I appear to have ended up with a white swing in caster form, I think that one was user error (though I did think I'd only made that mistake on the first attempt), and 8 where I actually manage to consume an omen proc on wrath (interesting to not that the proc takes 0.6 seconds to show up after the white swing), I guess avoiding doing that must depend on how quick your reactions are.

I don't think I'll gather any more proper proc rate data as doing so in such a way as to avoid white swing contamination was really quite concentration intensive for gathering a statistically valid sample at the rate of one data point per 15 seconds. I'll keep experimenting with it in raids but I guess I'll leave creating a proper proof for or against it to someone willing to collect the data properly.

*edit* Tried it for a farm raid whilst on a slightly better connection, couldn't find any signs of the caster form melee this time so I'm guessing that was user error or high latency. Swing delay ranging 1.8 to 2.4.

Rannasha · 11/06/09, 6:11 AM

Originally Posted by Greyhoof

Using Gift to proc Omen the higher proc rate needs to be enough to make up for the extra 800 or so damage off the wrath itself which whilst it isn't much definitely seems to require more accurate data than I have now about the proc rates from Pred swifness spells and gift, as whilst I remember it generally procs it doesn't seem to be 100% either.

Following up on the derivation of the proc chance of of OoC on a Pred.Swift. hasted Wrath by rcxquake, we can compute the proc chance of OoC with a GotW cast as well, using similar assumptions.

GotW is instant. For spellpower coefficients, instant casts are generally treated as being 1.5 second casts, so we'll use that. Further more, we assume that GotW can proc OoC for every target being hit by the spell. In a 25 man raid you'll have around 30 targets (depending on the number of buffable pets). With 3.5ppm, you expect a proc chance of 8.75% per hit. The chance that you get at least one proc is 1 - (1 - 0.0875)^n (with n the number of targets), so that'd come out as 93.6% (with just 25 targets it's 89.9%, with 35 it's 95.9%). In a 10 man raid with 12 targets, you're at 66.7%.

I'll leave it up to others to work out if a 90%~94% proc chance on OoC is worth losing those white attacks.

Bearcowcat · 11/06/09, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by Rannasha

I'll leave it up to others to work out if a 90%~94% proc chance on OoC is worth losing those white attacks.

In my initial supposition, it was never a question of using Gifts during the rotation. Instead, I proposed using the spell to force OoC procs when there was a lull in the fight.

Relevant examples I can think of off the top of my head are:
1) While the Jormungars are burrowing.
2) While running from Icehowl's charge.
3) While switching auras on Twins, if you're using a strategy where you switch on Vortex.

A situation where I suspect forcing an OoC proc even while attacking will be beneficial is while swiping Anub adds. The high damage of Swipe vs. auto-attacks on several adds and the high energy cost of Swipe would seem to tip the balance in favor of missing a few white hits to squeeze more Swipes in.

Greyhoof · 11/06/09, 11:23 PM

Two things I'd be worried about in ideas of forcing OOC procs whilst running.

Firstly the loss of feral swiftness whilst shifting out of cat probably loses you time on target in some circumstances, though there are definitely some where it doesn't (burrowed worms for example).

Secondly there's the slight problem of a combination of 3/5 furor and the buff timer on Clearcasting meaning that it's only a gain of a full omen proc if you get to use your attack in the 4-15 second window after you do it (presuming that the break would have been long enough to cap out on energy anyway). Less than 4 and you lose energy by capping to 60 when you Gift, more than 15 and the Clearcast is gone. Shouldn't be too much of a problem but worth keeping in mind.

The big problem with Omen forcing during lulls as opposed to in the middle of combat that I can see is that you'll generally have to spend the Clearcast on re-establishing your rotation rather than shredding which especially if your energy has actually pooled to full anyway as you then lose the 10 energy from the first global back in combat as well. So Mangle or Rake to re-establish things and you've only gained 24-25 energy out of it.

Gift use on Anub definitely looks like it could be worthwhile though seeing as there's not enough finishers to be allowing regular Pred Swiftness use whilst swiping, probably not something I'll experiment with myself though for the same reasons as not using double haste potions on every fight.

Jone · 11/07/09, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Greyhoof

Gift use on Anub definitely looks like it could be worthwhile though seeing as there's not enough finishers to be allowing regular Pred Swiftness use whilst swiping, probably not something I'll experiment with myself though for the same reasons as not using double haste potions on every fight.

Predatory Swiftness is irrelevant to GotW -- it's instant. The question there is if your mana can support it.

Isambaard · 11/07/09, 6:46 AM

Originally Posted by Greyhoof

*edit* Tried it for a farm raid whilst on a slightly better connection, couldn't find any signs of the caster form melee this time so I'm guessing that was user error or high latency. Swing delay ranging 1.8 to 2.4.

Why Wrath instead of Starfire? I'm not sold the technique is worth it, since it appears to be a marginal gain with perfect play and a loss with less, but Starfire should perform better since it has higher base damage and better coefficient from any incidental spell damage and scaling effects present in your raid.

[e] Don't be like me and post on no sleep. Yes Starfire is not nature so I'm an idiot.

Protagonist · 11/07/09, 7:32 AM

Originally Posted by Isambaard

Why Wrath instead of Starfire?

Because Wrath would be instant cast with Predator's Swiftness. Wrath is a Nature spell, Starfire is not.

Loranel · 11/07/09, 2:15 PM

I have tested too, and my "procs rate" are 68% for 100 Wraths. OoC procs on a precedent OoC (from Mangle). In my opinion, we don't have any certitudes for that, but that's very interessant for the precedent situations (Switching Vortex, bump of Icehowl with Charge on CD ...). (Sorry for my language, i'm french)