At 62 procs out of 100 wraths it gives the impression that something funny is going on with omen proccing from the Pred Swiftness casts as that seems to be vastly higher than the chance of getting it from just standing there chain casting the spells. I'm fairly certain that the chance of getting that large a number of procs if it's actually only a 1 in 60 chance (base ooc proc rate on cat white attacks and specials) or so is horrifyingly low. Thus given that pred swiftness spells seem to be providing more clearcasts than we'd expect the question is exactly how many more and whether we can use that to our advantage for DPS or alternatively if it isn't a DPS gain be able to throw out heals for a minimal or zero DPS loss.
You'd lose closer to 3 white hits due to hasted melee swings + the 1.3-1.5s spell GCD depending on haste in addition to the lost chance to also proc an OOC off those 2 melee swings. This is discounting any procs you get such as trinket and/or weapon procs.
Just had a test as to number of white hits lost over 100 performances of PS wrath was getting a delay of 2.5 seconds on average between the last swing before and the first swing after. Since I couldn't get hold of a WF totem for testing this isn't as useful as it could be. However without it I'm losing 1.8 melee swings on average every time I do it (my current hasted swing speed being 0.88 ((2.5-0.88)/0.88=1.8)). Even after the WF totem that's still only 2 swings lost on average so it should still be a damage gain based on my initial calculations on the last page.
Confident enough in it to give it an initial try in a raid tonight. I'll post a log here or in the WWS thread once I've tried it in a raid buffed environment. Probably will just show that I'm not that great at maintaining proper rip uptime and that it would be more of a DPS gain for me to practice that properly than mess about with this nonsense but this seems worth a try at least for a change of pace (alternatively looking at the signups I'll be stuck as the third tank on heroic beasts and won't get a chance to try it with proper raid buffs).
Current Estimates using my gear:
8688(average shred)* (0.62(estimated proc rate) - 0.033(chance omen would have procced from the two white swings)) - 1805 * 2 (two average white attacks) + 645 (average wrath (taken from Dr. Damage)) = 2134 (extra damage per execution that doesn't clip any other timers)
After an unbuffed test on a dummy I've come across two other factors I'd forgotten about, firstly being significantly below the spell hit cap which could well be enough to kill the idea on its own and secondly the extra generation of CP which made it feel a lot more comfortable working FB into my cycle without buffs.
On the same note as Greyhoof's research, I was reading the moonkin beginner guide, and it said that Gift of the Wild could be used to force Omen of Clarity procs, as it hits so many targets that a proc is likely. I haven't yet tested in a raid environment, but I did check that Gift of the Wild can proc OoC.
At a cost of 1118 mana, which can be glyphed down to 559, you could do this 5 or 6 times in a fight while still conserving mana for a Rebirth.
If it was used during a lull in the fight where no other positive DPS actions can be undertaken (I'm thinking while the Jormungars are underground, and similar situations), there is no opportunity cost and it should result in a net DPS increase, even if the proc rate isn't fantastic.
On the same note as Greyhoof's research, I was reading the moonkin beginner guide, and it said that Gift of the Wild could be used to force Omen of Clarity procs, as it hits so many targets that a proc is likely. I haven't yet tested in a raid environment, but I did check that Gift of the Wild can proc OoC.
I have certainly noticed while buffing the raid that OOC procs almost every time I cast GotW.
World of Logs Parse, on the downside I only got to try it twice due to having to take over on tanking the later tries.
From that particular attempt it looks like I got 5 clearcasts out of 8 attempts. 7.7k dps on a 2:20 fight with no bloodlust, hysteria, tricks, speed potions (though I could in theory have been using one pre-pull) or a spell hit debuff. White attacks lost appear to be about what I'd estimated, wrath on the other hand hits a bit harder as I hadn't thought of any decent way to estimate the effects of full raid buffs on it.
Using Gift to proc Omen the higher proc rate needs to be enough to make up for the extra 800 or so damage off the wrath itself which whilst it isn't much definitely seems to require more accurate data than I have now about the proc rates from Pred swifness spells and gift, as whilst I remember it generally procs it doesn't seem to be 100% either.
Nature's grasp on the other hand seems worth using ever spare GCD, that's one I still haven't really got used to it being castable in forms so rather forgot about.
A quick glance through the log of that snippet of the fight tells me you're missing more than 2 white swings as you spend almost 4 seconds out of cat form due to the longer caster form GCDs. 4 white swings mean you break even, a 5th would put you in a small net loss.
Originally Posted by JamesVZ
Yes but you can't guarantee that every 10 man raid would have Party Grenades available right now, so giving this effect to Disco Priests I think is a worthwhile endeavor.
Given it's only 8 instances it seems worth posting the surrounding events to save people digging through the combatlog just to find the relevant events as the rest of it is all just a question of how well I can play cat, which I guess is fundamentally irrelevant to whether this tactic is actually worthwhile.
Originally Posted by Combatlog
[20:20:53.866] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler 628
[20:20:54.618] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:20:54.618] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:20:55.702] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler Miss
[20:20:55.914] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:20:56.298] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler Dodge
[20:21:03.046] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2349*
[20:21:03.563] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:21:03.563] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:21:03.955] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 867 (R: 85)
[20:21:04.139] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:21:05.352] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2044*
[20:21:05.546] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:21:07.120] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2138*
[20:21:15.995] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler 785
[20:21:16.517] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:21:16.517] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:21:16.871] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 918
[20:21:16.945] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:21:18.030] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:21:18.249] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2454*
[20:21:36.721] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2173*
[20:21:36.876] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:21:36.876] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:21:37.212] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 927
[20:21:37.467] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:21:38.289] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:21:38.702] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2153*
[20:21:47.546] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2136*
[20:21:48.076] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:21:48.077] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:21:48.457] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 920
[20:21:48.717] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:21:49.454] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:21:49.940] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler 802
[20:21:57.944] Greyhoof hits Gormok the Impaler 968
[20:21:58.083] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:21:58.083] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:21:58.483] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 813 (R: 80)
[20:21:58.655] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:21:59.440] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:21:59.827] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2208*
[20:22:13.086] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2152*
[20:22:13.671] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:22:13.671] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:22:14.000] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler 769 (R: 170)
[20:22:15.057] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:22:15.358] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2177*
[20:22:43.921] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *2281*
[20:22:44.577] Greyhoof gains Clearcasting from Greyhoof
[20:22:44.592] Greyhoof's Cat Form fades
[20:22:44.592] Greyhoof's Clearcasting fades
[20:22:44.592] Greyhoof begins to cast Wrath
[20:22:44.983] Greyhoof Wrath Gormok the Impaler *1528*
[20:22:45.998] Greyhoof gains Cat Form from Greyhoof
[20:22:46.280] Greyhoof crits Gormok the Impaler *289* (O: 1983)
Attempts 1,3,4,5,6,7 all appear to have worked properly, with swing delays between 1.9 and 2.4 seconds, 0.77 is my buffed swing timer normally so on those I lost 1.5-2 swings.
The worrying ones are 2 where I appear to have ended up with a white swing in caster form, I think that one was user error (though I did think I'd only made that mistake on the first attempt), and 8 where I actually manage to consume an omen proc on wrath (interesting to not that the proc takes 0.6 seconds to show up after the white swing), I guess avoiding doing that must depend on how quick your reactions are.
I don't think I'll gather any more proper proc rate data as doing so in such a way as to avoid white swing contamination was really quite concentration intensive for gathering a statistically valid sample at the rate of one data point per 15 seconds. I'll keep experimenting with it in raids but I guess I'll leave creating a proper proof for or against it to someone willing to collect the data properly.
*edit* Tried it for a farm raid whilst on a slightly better connection, couldn't find any signs of the caster form melee this time so I'm guessing that was user error or high latency. Swing delay ranging 1.8 to 2.4.
Using Gift to proc Omen the higher proc rate needs to be enough to make up for the extra 800 or so damage off the wrath itself which whilst it isn't much definitely seems to require more accurate data than I have now about the proc rates from Pred swifness spells and gift, as whilst I remember it generally procs it doesn't seem to be 100% either.
Following up on the derivation of the proc chance of of OoC on a Pred.Swift. hasted Wrath by rcxquake, we can compute the proc chance of OoC with a GotW cast as well, using similar assumptions.
GotW is instant. For spellpower coefficients, instant casts are generally treated as being 1.5 second casts, so we'll use that. Further more, we assume that GotW can proc OoC for every target being hit by the spell. In a 25 man raid you'll have around 30 targets (depending on the number of buffable pets). With 3.5ppm, you expect a proc chance of 8.75% per hit. The chance that you get at least one proc is 1 - (1 - 0.0875)^n (with n the number of targets), so that'd come out as 93.6% (with just 25 targets it's 89.9%, with 35 it's 95.9%). In a 10 man raid with 12 targets, you're at 66.7%.
I'll leave it up to others to work out if a 90%~94% proc chance on OoC is worth losing those white attacks.
I'll leave it up to others to work out if a 90%~94% proc chance on OoC is worth losing those white attacks.
In my initial supposition, it was never a question of using Gifts during the rotation. Instead, I proposed using the spell to force OoC procs when there was a lull in the fight.
Relevant examples I can think of off the top of my head are:
1) While the Jormungars are burrowing.
2) While running from Icehowl's charge.
3) While switching auras on Twins, if you're using a strategy where you switch on Vortex.
A situation where I suspect forcing an OoC proc even while attacking will be beneficial is while swiping Anub adds. The high damage of Swipe vs. auto-attacks on several adds and the high energy cost of Swipe would seem to tip the balance in favor of missing a few white hits to squeeze more Swipes in.
Two things I'd be worried about in ideas of forcing OOC procs whilst running.
Firstly the loss of feral swiftness whilst shifting out of cat probably loses you time on target in some circumstances, though there are definitely some where it doesn't (burrowed worms for example).
Secondly there's the slight problem of a combination of 3/5 furor and the buff timer on Clearcasting meaning that it's only a gain of a full omen proc if you get to use your attack in the 4-15 second window after you do it (presuming that the break would have been long enough to cap out on energy anyway). Less than 4 and you lose energy by capping to 60 when you Gift, more than 15 and the Clearcast is gone. Shouldn't be too much of a problem but worth keeping in mind.
The big problem with Omen forcing during lulls as opposed to in the middle of combat that I can see is that you'll generally have to spend the Clearcast on re-establishing your rotation rather than shredding which especially if your energy has actually pooled to full anyway as you then lose the 10 energy from the first global back in combat as well. So Mangle or Rake to re-establish things and you've only gained 24-25 energy out of it.
Gift use on Anub definitely looks like it could be worthwhile though seeing as there's not enough finishers to be allowing regular Pred Swiftness use whilst swiping, probably not something I'll experiment with myself though for the same reasons as not using double haste potions on every fight.
Gift use on Anub definitely looks like it could be worthwhile though seeing as there's not enough finishers to be allowing regular Pred Swiftness use whilst swiping, probably not something I'll experiment with myself though for the same reasons as not using double haste potions on every fight.
Predatory Swiftness is irrelevant to GotW -- it's instant. The question there is if your mana can support it.
*edit* Tried it for a farm raid whilst on a slightly better connection, couldn't find any signs of the caster form melee this time so I'm guessing that was user error or high latency. Swing delay ranging 1.8 to 2.4.
Why Wrath instead of Starfire? I'm not sold the technique is worth it, since it appears to be a marginal gain with perfect play and a loss with less, but Starfire should perform better since it has higher base damage and better coefficient from any incidental spell damage and scaling effects present in your raid.
[e] Don't be like me and post on no sleep. Yes Starfire is not nature so I'm an idiot.
Last edited by Isambaard : 11/07/09 at 9:00 AM.
Originally Posted by JamesVZ
Yes but you can't guarantee that every 10 man raid would have Party Grenades available right now, so giving this effect to Disco Priests I think is a worthwhile endeavor.
I have tested too, and my "procs rate" are 68% for 100 Wraths. OoC procs on a precedent OoC (from Mangle). In my opinion, we don't have any certitudes for that, but that's very interessant for the precedent situations (Switching Vortex, bump of Icehowl with Charge on CD ...). (Sorry for my language, i'm french)
I have read through this entire thread and have not really seen anyone talk about a situation in my rotation I am having trouble with. My apologies if i missed it.
I often find myself with 5 combo points, savage soar AND rip at about 6 seconds or so, but LOW energy (less than 20). My first instinct in this situation is to hit a FB when I have enough energy but this never works because I then have no energy to build up combo points to re-apply rip. However, I feel like a total fool just sitting there with my thumb up my ... uh rear...doing nothing with my combo points and... well nothing at all!
Doing nothing while your energy regenerates is not a problem. It is called pooling, which insures that you have sufficient energy to continue your rotation and keep all buffs and debuffs up with minimal downtime. If you get to 100 energy, though, or you get an OOC proc, consider shredding even if you're at 5 combo points.
As long as you are not overflowing with energy (or run the risk of overflowing if you get an omen of clarity proc) doing nothing is not necessarily bad. I would point out though that if both rip and roar have about 6 seconds left you would have been better desynchronizing them earlier with a low point roar. Its also good to note that if you are planning on clipping a roar to desynchronize it you should also be pooling energy to make sure you clip as little of the roar as possible, leaving enough time to build 5 combo points to reapply rip when it falls off.
Sweet, thanks for the feed back. The answers lead to more questions tho! XD
I usually arrive at the situation I described quickly after applying 5 CP rip and getting lucky with OOC procs (which I use to shred if mangle and rake are up) and/or primal fury procs. This gives me 5 CP very quickly that I feel the need to use and it makes the most sense to me to lay down a nice, long SR. Is there a better way of handling THAT situation?
Originally Posted by Odas
Healcat,
Its also good to note that if you are planning on clipping a roar to desynchronize it you should also be pooling energy to make sure you clip as little of the roar as possible, leaving enough time to build 5 combo points to reapply rip when it falls off.
I am assuming by "clipping" you mean applying SR even though it is already up? Sorry about my noobness. I've been a tree for most of the game and I'm just now getting serious about ripping faces off. So would the idea with clipping be to actually SHORTEN the duration? That would make it easier to alternate using CPs for SR and rip I suppose.
Desynchronizing rip and roar applies to the situation when roar and rip have close to the same duration left. If you wait for them both to fall off then you will have some time when rip is not on (because you'd refresh roar first). The idea is instead of waiting for 5 combo points to roar and applying that when roar falls off, if you use a low combo point roar before roar falls off, then you have time to get 5 combo points ready for when rip falls off, ensuring that there is no major downtime of either rip or roar. It comes down to it being better to lose a few seconds on roar (by applying before roar falls off) than to have rip be off for a few seconds because you need time to generate combo points.
If you just applied a 5 combo point rip and have just gotten lucky with omen of clarity and now have 5 combo points again, you can do one of two things.
1. If roar if about to fall off and you are not too high on energy you can pool energy and apply roar either when it falls off, or you reach 85 energy whichever comes first
2. If roar still has enough time on it, you can ferocious bite.
When using ferocious bite make sure that you will have enough time to get combo points to refresh roar and rip before they fall off. If you wont have enough time to do that you should either pool energy and go for situation 1, or if you start overflowing energy shred at max combo points (although this will rarely happen unless you get even more omen of clarity procs).
I've noticed that on the fights where I take my time and let my energy regen, and MAYBE get in just 1 FB, my overall dps increases by a lot. When I get antsy with my energy and try to use it all when I get it, my dps sucks. So yes I would say there is no problem with a little bit of downtime while your energy regens.
EDIT: I also only use FB if TF is off CD. That way I can get the energy back to keep the debuffs going.
2. If roar still has enough time on it, you can ferocious bite.
This was my mentality for the longest time, then I noticed that 3 shreds = more then 1 bite. I have completely stopped using bite in my rotation (aside from obvious scenarios like burrow phases or when a mob is about to die and rip will not deal it's full damage). Another plus to not using bite? You should never find yourself saying "Oh hell, I have no combo points or energy to reapply Roar or Rip" because you literally are sitting on 5 all the time.
It feels wrong not using Bite at first, but until it's re-tuned it seems Shred wins. Not to mention, as a lot of people tend to put "filler" points into Feral Aggression for extra Bite damage, it frees up points to other things like Survival Instincts, Imp LotP(which helps maintain mana for GotW OoC procs), 4/5 Furor, or whatever really.
This was my mentality for the longest time, then I noticed that 3 shreds = more then 1 bite.
3 shreds are also a lot more energy than a FB and 3-6 combo points you are throwing away (basically another finisher). The issue isn't "use FB or don't use it"...its more "when is it best to use it". Currently playing with the idea of 1-2 CP SR and semi-alternating Rip and FB...data mixed so far.
3 shreds are also a lot more energy than a FB and 3-6 combo points you are throwing away (basically another finisher). The issue isn't "use FB or don't use it"...its more "when is it best to use it". Currently playing with the idea of 1-2 CP SR and semi-alternating Rip and FB...data mixed so far.
Well I wouldn't begin to know how to provide accurate tests for this, but I can say over the last 3 weeks I have seen an increase in my DPS since I stopped using Bite (Again, excluding obvious times like end of fights). I used to try the 1-2 CP Roar, while keeping up Mangle, Rake, and a 12 second+ Rip on the target, then throw in a bite because seeing 20k+ damage at once seems like it's a lot.
But over time misuse of Bite can really start to put a damper on DPS. Once you fall behind the rotation because of a miss-timed Bite, or a lack of OoC procs, it can be tiresome and depressing trying to catch back up. Sitting on 5 CP does not hurt your DPS. Having all your bleeds/roar falling off around the same time because you used Bite and now have no energy, that can really hurt your DPS.
Currently my shreds hit for roughly 10k on average (Again I can't provide solid numbers, sorry) so even 2 Shreds will equal out to about 1 Bite, without risking the loss of Combo Points. And then it free's up Talent Points? To me it's pretty clear cut that not using Bite is the better way to go currently, but I'm not sure how to produce any numbers to back this claim. I'd also love to hear any other suggestion as to why the points in Feral Aggression outweigh others.
11/03/09, 12:57 AM
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