Cat DPS Rotation - Page 58

ramenchef · 03/30/09, 5:50 PM

I'm sorry but you're wrong boevis. As GC explained it, if a bleed ticked for 100 and crit for 150, with full resilience, it would tick for 85 and crit for 100.5. the DoT damage reduction only applies if the DoT doesn't crit. If it does crit, it gets a lower crit chance (15%) but the DoT damage reduction doesn't apply. Instead the crit damage reduction part applies.

zorzor · 04/01/09, 4:28 PM

Hello,

I am new to the druid feral world. I have been following this thread and some others and I have figured out what hit cap and expertise cap are but it seems like most of the really well geared cats meet the expertise cap but hardly any meet the hit cap. Does the AEP value end up being more worthwhile to go with strength and or agility (seems like you are supposed to get a combination of this or do you shoot for a crit rating then start stacking strength instead) vs., worrying about keeping the hit number up to 263 then? Sorry, just looking for some clarification and thank you in advance for any help.

Allev · 04/01/09, 5:30 PM

Unlike most classes, hit rating isn't essential to feral DPS druids. Our white autoattacks are a relatively low percentage of our damage. The vast majority of our damage, though, is yellow "special" damage.

Our "special" damage suffers from misses in two ways:
1) We lose 20% of the energy spent on yellow attacks.
2) Depending on the timing of the attack, we suffer a GCD of downtime on attacks with timers (everything but shred and Ferocious Bite).

So, hit rating is weaker for us compared to rogues because we have a low percentage of damage from white attacks, and lower compared to other melee and casters because our special attacks don't hurt us that badly.

Being hit-capped makes the game easier to play because you don't have to repeat parts of your rotation when they miss. If you have no problem acknowledging when you miss and adjusting for it, then it's perfectly fine, or even encouraged, to not keep capped hit.

Most druids actually do get close to the hit cap, but being below 263 isn't a terrible occurrence.

zorzor · 04/01/09, 6:17 PM

Originally Posted by Allev

Unlike most classes, hit rating isn't essential to feral DPS druids. Our white autoattacks are a relatively low percentage of our damage. The vast majority of our damage, though, is yellow "special" damage.

Our "special" damage suffers from misses in two ways:
1) We lose 20% of the energy spent on yellow attacks.
2) Depending on the timing of the attack, we suffer a GCD of downtime on attacks with timers (everything but shred and Ferocious Bite).

So, hit rating is weaker for us compared to rogues because we have a low percentage of damage from white attacks, and lower compared to other melee and casters because our special attacks don't hurt us that badly.

Being hit-capped makes the game easier to play because you don't have to repeat parts of your rotation when they miss. If you have no problem acknowledging when you miss and adjusting for it, then it's perfectly fine, or even encouraged, to not keep capped hit.

Most druids actually do get close to the hit cap, but being below 263 isn't a terrible occurrence.

Ok, thank you for the input I appreciate it. I found something saying if your AP was > a certain level with your crit then strength was better than hit too or something like that. Still trying to make my way through all these posts.

Temelin · 04/02/09, 10:29 AM

Hi

- my first post
- my english is realy retarded -> Im so sorry
- with all respect to maths and theorycrafters I prefer results from live raid as a stronger argument -> Im aggain so sorry, for all theorycrafters, who hate this agruments

Rend and Tear now increases the critical strike chance of your Ferocious Bite ability on bleeding targets by 5/10/15/20/25%. (Down from 10/20/30/40/50%)

Due to the my role in guild raid, I prefer imp mangle as a lone mangle/trauma debuff provider - here is the core of that build. In this build is not possible to reach 5/5 Feral Aggression. And it will not be possible in 3.1x when one talent point will be consumed in Primal Gore. Yes, you will have 4pts remain and very probably the arms warriors take the position of mangle/trauma providers... but in my opinion, imp mangle is stil good - if not for not to be so depend on arms warr, its good for situations, when you cant attack from behind (Thadius etc).
I absolved all the guild 25man raids as a feral DPS since WotLK started and find, that using a 5CBP FB safe by all the rotation rules is almost imposible and there are 1 or 2 moments in 3min fights, when you realy can use it safety. Now on live 3.08, Im having very often a problem, with 5 CBP, SR and RiP up, while Im not using FB.

The question was: What to do with couple of free energy? I finded, that simple shred spam over the 5CBP until RiP need to be refreshed is the way to safe rotation. Lame but effective.

New patch bringing several changes against this "solve of free energy problem". Shred glyph increasing the RiP duration even if we will drop 2pc T7, the RiP will be "too long" and new free energy will concentrate in our bar. There are also strong energy providing 2pc T8 bonus. In all that, it seems, that arms warr will become a hard spot part of 25man raids - less timers to watch, more energy to safe. At last, new gear seems to have increased AGI, crit and Armor Pen instead of Attack Power. More crit chance, more CBPts.

The question aggain is: What to do with couple of free energy? I know... maths says:

35en cost 5CBP FB with (even)25% more critchance > 42en cost shred

But you have to have in mind, that those FB consume your CBP and you can fall into situation, when no RiP will tick for a few sec, or your SR expire - because you are not flawless rotation script .) So my story ends here for a while and Im looking foward to maths, how much shred spam over 5CBP gimp my DPS - if any can provide, I ll be pleased and you will have my thanks.

chaos8517 · 04/02/09, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Allev

Unlike most classes, hit rating isn't essential to feral DPS druids. Our white autoattacks are a relatively low percentage of our damage. The vast majority of our damage, though, is yellow "special" damage.

Our "special" damage suffers from misses in two ways:
1) We lose 20% of the energy spent on yellow attacks.
2) Depending on the timing of the attack, we suffer a GCD of downtime on attacks with timers (everything but shred and Ferocious Bite).

So, hit rating is weaker for us compared to rogues because we have a low percentage of damage from white attacks, and lower compared to other melee and casters because our special attacks don't hurt us that badly.

Being hit-capped makes the game easier to play because you don't have to repeat parts of your rotation when they miss. If you have no problem acknowledging when you miss and adjusting for it, then it's perfectly fine, or even encouraged, to not keep capped hit.

Most druids actually do get close to the hit cap, but being below 263 isn't a terrible occurrence.

I hear this a lot (both that +hit isn't as useful for us, and that white damage is a low percentage for us), and I was wondering if you could support it somehow?

I ask because I have found from my experience that focusing on hit was the biggest increase in my DPS, and that white damage is a relatively large percentage of my damage.

For example:
Wow Web Stats
White damage was about 30% of my total damage done.

I don't think that i was capped for this fight - probably around 235 - and I'm mostly tank spec'd - above parse is actually the only time I've ever DPS'd patch, but you get the idea.

Is the thought that if I were to switch out + hit for gear with other stats that those would increase my DPS more than the + hit is?

Garanthir · 04/02/09, 11:02 AM

Not to be insulting, but your position in that WWS parse does not support any sort of stat weighting argument. There is no post in this thread that states hit is not important. Rather, there are many posts showing it's relative weight compared to other stats and I believe that is the message Allev was trying to convey.

chaos8517 · 04/02/09, 11:48 AM

Not insulted - I have just heard the argument that "white damage is a very low percentage of our damage" several times - however, my experience has been to the contrary.

My position on the parse isn't relevant - just that my 'swing' damage is outweighing damage from other attacks.

Allev · 04/02/09, 12:37 PM

You had 33% "swing" damage, the rogue had 42%. That's measurably less white damage compared to the other energy-based class-- which is what I meant when I said "relatively low". Yes, the rogue there is not very high on the damage meters, but those percentages roughly match my guild's parses as well-- rogues have about 10% more of their overall damage as white damage.

Warriors will be hard to measure given their white hits get replaced with Heroic Strike (fury warriors have more white hits than the arms warrior in your raid), and I don't have a good pally/enhancement shaman to compare to. DKs have less white damage than us, though.

For less cherry-picked-data-based and more Blizzard-design-based evidence, haste rating affects white attacks only (except autoattack-replacement attacks). The classes which are getting a buff to haste rating in 3.1 are those which have low white-attack damage. Druids are included here.

chaos8517 · 04/02/09, 1:10 PM

I was always comparing my swings to my other damaging attacks (as opposed to swings from other melee classes), I suppose that's where my confusion came from.

Bigtoy · 04/02/09, 5:26 PM

Isn't there more to hit/exp than just white damage? Namely every miss/dodge is a lost opportunity for a an Omen of Clarity proc, along with 20% loss of energy on a missed special.

I threw together a quick napkin math looking at this.

Basic inputs: OoC proc rate 6%, 75 white attacks/min (20% haste), 20 special attacks/min (600 energy regeneration, + 2x Tiger's Fury of 60 / avg special cost of 36. Numbers chosen for smooth math). So there's 95 chances for an OoC proc. Each miss has a 6% chance of having been a "lost proc" which s 2.5 lost energy averaged out (6% * 42 energy for shred) A missed/dodged special costs on average about 7.2 energy (36 averaged x 20% loss)

So what are our costs per 1% of miss/dodge on the table? Given the 95 attacks postulated each 1% of combined miss/dodge averages in 3.8 energy lost per minute. Of which 2.4 is lost OoC procs and 1.4 is lost energy from a missed special attack.

I'm not up-to-date on the the best energy:damage rule of thumb, so as a conservative estimate I picked 2200 damage for a shred (number picked in a post-caffiene crash at work), divded by 42 energy for roughly 52 damage per energy. Multipled by 3.8 for each percentage of a failed attack and that's about 200 DPS. Per minute. Seems potentially very non-trivial.

Apologes for any blown numbers, potential Rawr redundancies and so forth.

Jayro · 04/02/09, 5:42 PM

Since Wrath came out I've been doing only 5cp Rips in my rotation. Pretty sure that was the consensus reached through various discussions on these forums. I'm now wondering whether we should consider going back to 4/5cp Rips after 3.1.

Reasons are that now Primal Gore only affects Rip, making Rip up-time even more important that it was previously. Using 4cp Rips gives us the ability to get Rips off sooner in situations where your Rip has already fallen off and you're frantically building CPs to get it back up. The second reason is that with our raid buffed crit rating sitting between 55%-60% in uldar gear, the number of lost CPs from critting while at 4cps is going to add up to even more lost dps.

Do you guys think the gain in CPs and Rip up-time will outweigh the loss of using 4/5cp Rips instead of just 5cp?

kalbear · 04/02/09, 5:44 PM

I think the biggest problem is that 4/5CP rips were there when 4p and 5p wasn't that big a deal and rip duration wouldn't last that long. With rips (glyphed, no set bonus) lasting 22 seconds, having it do 20% less damage for that entire duration seems to me to be a fairly painful hit on DPS.

Mijae · 04/02/09, 6:20 PM

I have made quite a few changes to the way I model OoC gains and I'm actually seeing hit/expertise rating value increase dramatically. However, I haven't fully verified the changes yet, so i might somehow be double-dipping into miss costs.

Basically instead of modeling OoC as an energy gain, I have changed the model to be based on a new resource which is essentially just "attacks" and "hits". Attacks have multiple sources, either from energy or clearcasting. Clearcasts can come from either OoC or bleed ticks from 2t8 bonus. From these I derive attacks gained from clearcast per second. Energy gains come from TF, Revitalize, or power shifting (Wolfshead Helm).

For example, a static SR/5Rip cycle with no FBs. Based on crit chance, I determine what the average number of "hits" is required for 5 CP. From the number of needed hits, you can get number of needed attacks. Based on clearcasts per second, average energy cost of CP generators, and energy regen rate we get how much these attacks take on average. If we know our Rip duration, we can then go backwards and subtract the time it took so far. We take that time and calculate total attacks and hits. From hits we can calculate cycle damage and finisher CP. If we set a constant CP target for SR, we can do the same to figure out how much extra time (and hits) is available for a FB finisher instead.

While obviously still not as accurate as a full simulation, it feels like a better approximation on clearcasting value than converting to generic energy. Assuming my equations are correct, does anyone see a flaw in the logic?

Algroth · 04/03/09, 7:23 AM

I just had a thought that I would really like some input on, this assumes that Super Rips still are possible.

With 3.1 coming out, there is a nice addition to rip duration, that being said:
Mangle: 12 seconds
Rip: 12 + 4 (2T7) + 4 (Rip Glyph) + 6 (Shred Glyph) = 26 seconds

Drop the Rip Glyph or the 2T7
Rip duration = 22 seconds
2x mangle uptime: 24 seconds

So if we drop either the rip glyph or 2t7 (most likely the latter since we will have T8) then Super Ripping will be plausible for 100% of rips. Prior to this you would have to alternate Super Rip / Non-mangle'd Rip, which wouldn't really be a dps increase.

Testing to see if Super Rips are still in the game later. If anyone who is familiar with Super Ripping can test that would be much appreciated (preferably on things with large hit boxes, like the Son of Gruul in Nagrand or even Rage Winterchill).