Cat DPS Rotation - Page 60

nightcrowler · 04/06/09, 7:21 AM

As I've posted in my simulation topic FeralbyNight (Cat & Bear simulation tool)

rake should be used also with 100% ArPen in full Ulduar gear so it's not an issue. The main issue for me will be scaling, 7.3% dps increase from Naxx to Ulduar gear seems a little low, we should see how other classes scales (we should also consider that our base dps is higher than other hybrids dps).

thalys · 04/06/09, 1:34 PM

I guess I had just assumed the reason that rake was the knob they turned down was PvP, since it's the bleed of choice there. Isn't that the obvious answer to the question or is there something I'm missing? This seems to fall under the whole 'reducing random burst effects' paradigm for PvP they've gotten to be fairly serious about.

foxglove · 04/06/09, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by Natural

Do any of the simulators include human error when considering the hit and expertise caps? In an ideal world, we will always notice when an ability misses and try the same attack again. However, in the heat of battle, we might not notice and accidentally use the next ability we had planned in our head. A simulator will always pick the correct thing to do. A human might not.

Perhaps we accidentally put up a 4 point rip because we didn't notice mangle missed, or our rake misses and we follow up with a mangle and have to wait for energy to come back to put up Rake. There are lots of situations where we may already be planning our next ability in our heads. However, if we make a mistake, I don't know how much this will really impact our DPS.

Hypothetically this could be simulated by predicting one action ahead at all times. If the attack misses and the predicted next action would occur immediately on the next GCD, the "human error factor" would be considered to determine whether the simulator makes the "new best ability" or "planned next ability"

I know it's a bit pessimistic to assume we will make mistakes. However, it's clear to me that Hit/Expertise are the only stats that reduce the chance you will make a mistake. I believe it should be considered.

I think this is a really interesting idea. It would be helpful to compare the relative values of different stats between a human error factor of zero (you play perfectly) to one (every time an ability doesn't land, you cast your next planned ability by mistake, and therefore go with Rip/Mangle/Rake down for a few seconds until you have energy). A factor of 0.5 would mean you respond correctly to 50% of missed attacks.

On the subject of theoretical versus actual DPS, I've been considering gemming for agility instead of ArP, despite that ArP appears to be our best stat now when stacked properly. The biggest gamble in feral DPS is using Ferocious Bite. Used properly, it's a big bump to DPS. Used at the wrong time, it can mean a significant DPS loss because of Rip downtime, especially if the mis-timed FB is followed by a string of non-crits and no OOC procs. I've found myself letting Rip drop for a long time after an ill-conceived or just plain unlucky FB, even with > 8s left on both SR and Rip. Gemming for agility (and therefore higher crit) would mean better CP generation, which would in turn lessen the risk of using FB. Thoughts?

Thaeryn · 04/06/09, 4:48 PM

The effective dps increase of trading Rip uptime for a Ferocious Bite is going to go down quite a bit in 3.1. It may no longer even be a dps increase in all but the most lucky of situations. With 25% crit off of Ferocious Bite, and Rip now critting, emphasizing Rip uptime is going to be even more important. If you have 15+ seconds on both Rip and SR, and are sitting at 5 CP, then Ferocious Bite may still be worth using. If BOTH Rip and SR are at 16 seconds though, you probably want to wait until 95 energy, refresh your SR early, and get ready to refresh your Rip right when it falls off.

I'm sure someone with more skills in math then myself will be able to give stronger numbers to solidify the theory, but I get the feeling that FB is no longer going to be a reliable way to increase our dps.

sola5ide · 04/06/09, 7:38 PM

Does know the actual Blizz reasoning for why Rake was removed from Primal Gore? I, like most I imagine, assumed it was simply to reduce our DPS in general. But that also makes Rake scale poorly while the obvious choice was to reduce the damage increase of SR, which surely the Devs realize.

When Thalys mentioned the PvP implications, that was the first time I'd even considered it was to reduce burst damage. But does that really make sense? If you Pounce someone in PvP, you get the RnT bonus to Shred for 18 seconds, which should be plenty of time to get Rip up, even if you Maim first. So you really don't need to use Rake.

As it stands now, I only use Rake on targets that I know I can't burst down. Normally I just use Shred - a potential 6k shred crit is much better burst than a 1300 Rake every 3 sec. Even if Primal Gore had Rake critting, I'd still probably go with the up front damage. So in the end, it seems to me that removing Rake from Primal Gore really only reduces PvE DPS. In fact, it almost seems to increase PvP burst by discouraging Rake as PvP gear scales.

thalys · 04/06/09, 8:20 PM

Originally Posted by sola5ide

Does know the actual Blizz reasoning for why Rake was removed from Primal Gore? I, like most I imagine, assumed it was simply to reduce our DPS in general. But that also makes Rake scale poorly while the obvious choice was to reduce the damage increase of SR, which surely the Devs realize.

When Thalys mentioned the PvP implications, that was the first time I'd even considered it was to reduce burst damage. But does that really make sense? If you Pounce someone in PvP, you get the RnT bonus to Shred for 18 seconds, which should be plenty of time to get Rip up, even if you Maim first. So you really don't need to use Rake.

As it stands now, I only use Rake on targets that I know I can't burst down. Normally I just use Shred - a potential 6k shred crit is much better burst than a 1300 Rake every 3 sec. Even if Primal Gore had Rake critting, I'd still probably go with the up front damage. So in the end, it seems to me that removing Rake from Primal Gore really only reduces PvE DPS. In fact, it almost seems to increase PvP burst by discouraging Rake as PvP gear scales.

For 35 energy, you get 1-2 cp and put a bleed on your target to give a good chance at a crit FB, even against resilience. Pounce is lovely, but it's twice as much energy and requires stealth.

In any event, the particular point I was referring to wasn't pure burst, it was RNG. There's no question it takes more work to put a rip on someone than a rake, I wouldn't think--and the difference between back-to-back rake crit dots and non-crit dots could be a real difference maker. A swing of 2K or more damage on a cloth target is a lot, even over 3 seconds.

Then again, I could be doing it completely wrong, because I haven't really made much effort to get good at PvP on the druid (and you can see that if you check my laughable ratings). I was OK on my rogue once upon a time, but that was quite a while ago. But, mangle-rake-FB seems to take a pretty healthy chunk out of people in a hurry.

Boevis · 04/06/09, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Thaeryn

The effective dps increase of trading Rip uptime for a Ferocious Bite is going to go down quite a bit in 3.1. It may no longer even be a dps increase in all but the most lucky of situations. With 25% crit off of Ferocious Bite, and Rip now critting, emphasizing Rip uptime is going to be even more important. If you have 15+ seconds on both Rip and SR, and are sitting at 5 CP, then Ferocious Bite may still be worth using. If BOTH Rip and SR are at 16 seconds though, you probably want to wait until 95 energy, refresh your SR early, and get ready to refresh your Rip right when it falls off.

I'm sure someone with more skills in math then myself will be able to give stronger numbers to solidify the theory, but I get the feeling that FB is no longer going to be a reliable way to increase our dps.

There's too many factors to consider now for me to say one way or the other, but the likelyhood is to not FB in most situations, probably only during berserk or after ridiculous omen procs. Now that Shred increases Rip time, you can treat its damage as Shred+1 Rip tic up until the 3rd Shred per rip, and most likely when you have a lot of time left on rip, you haven't shredded 3 times yet, the reduction in crit from R&T, the added Rip tic, and the increased value of Rip uptime (especially with 2t8) all says to me "FB rarely"

Murna · 04/07/09, 7:25 AM

Originally Posted by Kazanir

1. Keep up Rake
2. Keep up Mangle
3. If both are up, Shred for combo points
4. Use Tiger's Fury at 25 energy or less
5. Use OoC procs to Shred over a Rip/FB
6. Use only 5-CP finishers
7. Keep up Savage Roar
8. Keep up Rip
9. If Rip and SR are up and Rip has more than 4-5 seconds left, FB
10. Berserk on cooldown, ideally when at 80-90 energy with TF up

It's still nearly correct.

6.: You can finish with Savage Roar with whatever amount of CP you have, just make sure to have no downtime on Savage Roar. Actually Savage Roar is more CP efficient the less CP you spend:

1 CP -> 14 Seconds -> 14 seconds per CP
3 CP -> 24 Seconds -> 8 Seconds per CP
5 CP -> 34 Seconds -> 6.9 Seconds per CP

9.: This will change in 3.1. Since Rip uptime becomes much more important, a FB can be only made with SR and rip at 12-13 seconds or so left.

Besides, the order is a bit wrong. Mangle uptime is more important than rake uptime and Savage Roar uptime is the most important.

I would also add another point: If SR and rip will expire at nearly the same time, say with only 2-3 Seconds difference, try to realize it early and refresh SR to bring the two timers out of balance.

kalbear · 04/07/09, 1:28 PM

It's more efficient for CP, but less efficient for energy spent. Though this math will change drastically with the 4p bonus; having an 8-second boost to savage roar makes 1-CP SR likely the best overall cost for CP and for overall throughput.

Ria · 04/07/09, 2:31 PM

I have a question that I haven't seen answered in the topic so far. I read through it, might of missed it but I am not sure.

Anyway. What is good feral DPS to have in 25 man Naxx? I pull 4.5k DPS on Patchwork. I think its low and I am doing something wrong. But I am not sure. I tool advice from the forum and changed up my rotation a little bit but I still feel like I am not doing so well. Look at my gear and talents and if you have some advice please tell me. Thanks

kalbear · 04/07/09, 2:52 PM

It very much depends on the length of a Patch fight, but in general you should be aiming for 5k on Patch, I think. It'll be higher depending on how many berserks you get, what your raid comp is and whether or not you have a manglebot.

For you specifically, you shouldn't enchant or gem for AP - strength is always better, and agility is always better. Berserk is better than massacre. The rip idol is better than the shred one. Don't bother with socket bonuses unless they're a no-brainer or they're excellent. Talent wise, you're fine for maximal cat DPS, though you'll do less with swipe than other cats.

Ria · 04/07/09, 3:31 PM

Okay thanks. If any one else wanna say something go ahead. Our patchwork fights are very short. We finish him off in like 2min 30 secs. So I only get one shot for that. And the stupid rip idol wont drop for me! It sucks so much. I think this week I'll go to Naxx and then come back to post recount so you may see in detail how well I do.

ganuard · 04/07/09, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

It very much depends on the length of a Patch fight, but in general you should be aiming for 5k on Patch, I think. It'll be higher depending on how many berserks you get, what your raid comp is and whether or not you have a manglebot.

For you specifically, you shouldn't enchant or gem for AP - strength is always better, and agility is always better. Berserk is better than massacre. The rip idol is better than the shred one. Don't bother with socket bonuses unless they're a no-brainer or they're excellent. Talent wise, you're fine for maximal cat DPS, though you'll do less with swipe than other cats.

Since when is the Rip idol better than the Shred idol? I thought that was only true in 3.1. In any current shred-oriented build the shred idol I thought was far superior.

Algroth · 04/07/09, 9:40 PM

Originally Posted by ganuard

Since when is the Rip idol better than the Shred idol? I thought that was only true in 3.1. In any current shred-oriented build the shred idol I thought was far superior.

Just some quick math:

Rip Idol: 21 damage/cp = 105 damage/rip tick (with 5cp) = 52.5 dps
Shred Idol: 203 damage/shred

Just taking a look at a fairly recent patchwork kill of mine:
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...7727#damageout (Act. DPS : 5364)

2:25 dps time = 145 seconds
42 shreds
1 shred every 3.45 seconds
203/3.45 = 58.8 dps

Two things to think about though:
1. Does the shred idol add damage before or after armor is factored in?
2. I was powershifting with Wolfshead Helm (and as a side note my current armory has 2 other gear upgrades since that last kill)

I powershifted 26 times that encounter, so that generated 520 energy. Assume all of that energy went into extra shreds for simplicity.
520/42 = 12.3 shreds (round down to 12 shreds) --- so lets do the math again
145 seconds
30 shreds
1 shred every 4.8 seconds - which is a rough approximation of shredding without powershifting
203/4.8 = 42.3 dps

42.3 dps < 52.5 dps
Therefore the rip idol is better (assuming you are not powershifting every 5.58 seconds like I was)

foxglove · 04/08/09, 1:03 AM

Originally Posted by Algroth

(assuming you are not powershifting every 5.58 seconds like I was)

The Wolfshead helm hasn't been nerfed yet? Has anyone run the numbers for the energy gain against (say) the Valorous Dreamwalker Helm's stats? I know it was still worthy of consideration from a DPS-only standpoint in BC, but I didn't even consider using it in LK. (Even in BC, I only used it on fights like Gorefiend.)