Cat DPS Rotation - Page 61

Algroth · 04/08/09, 2:02 AM

Originally Posted by foxglove

The Wolfshead helm hasn't been nerfed yet? Has anyone run the numbers for the energy gain against (say) the Valorous Dreamwalker Helm's stats? I know it was still worthy of consideration from a DPS-only standpoint in BC, but I didn't even consider using it in LK. (Even in BC, I only used it on fights like Gorefiend.)

Pages 24-26 of this thread have some discussion/math on the Wolfshead Helm.

Murna · 04/08/09, 7:19 AM

Originally Posted by ganuard

Since when is the Rip idol better than the Shred idol? I thought that was only true in 3.1. In any current shred-oriented build the shred idol I thought was far superior.

It's vice versa. The Rip Idol is better now, only by a small margin though.

In 3.1 the shred Idol becomes better as soon as you get 250 Armor Penetration (or something around that).

ArmorPenetration becomes the best stat for cats as soon as you get 330 (with Rip Idol) or 200 (with shred Idol)

foxglove · 04/08/09, 8:31 AM

Originally Posted by Murna

It's vice versa. The Rip Idol is better now, only by a small margin though.

In 3.1 the shred Idol becomes better as soon as you get 250 Armor Penetration (or something around that).

ArmorPenetration becomes the best stat for cats as soon as you get 330 (with Rip Idol) or 200 (with shred Idol)

Are you taking into account raid buffs/debuffs to get these numbers? My fiddling with Rawr 2.2.0b6 shows that, raid buffed and at a potential of 464 ArP in gear I have (Rip Idol, Grim Toll, Naxx 25 stuff), ArP > Agi only if Sunder Armor is not on the target. It actually appears to make a pretty big difference. The only reason I was testing this scenario is that my guild was actually without a warrior for a month and our rogues are undergeared; I'd imagine the majority of raids have this debuff at all times. I suppose in 10-man it is more likely that there will be no Sunder/Expose, but gemming for agility when 3.1 goes live still seems better if you do typically have sunders. (In Ulduar gear, ArP takes over with or without sunders.)

Edit: Here's the stat rankings for the same set, gemmed with ArP and using ArP food; only difference is checking/unchecking Sunder Armor.

With Sunder Armor

Without Sunder Armor

I should note that to confirm this I ran Rawr's optimizer once with Sunder checked and once without; I got the same result. When Sunder Armor was on the target, Rawr found the optimal set to be gemmed with agility and using agility food. When Sunder Armor was unchecked, Rawr found an ArP setup to be optimal.

mydhrin · 04/08/09, 9:25 AM

I'm sorry, I will go out of this discussion for a second and ask about what kind of rotation you guys were using during a Berserk. Personally, I usually keep Berserk for Heroism and then I'm not sure whether to spam shred or try and keep my full rotation going. Any of you guys ever made some testing on this? Thanks!

Temelin · 04/08/09, 9:37 AM

I managed some gears from known Ulduar items in my amateur excel tool and exported data to Toskks. Here are the datas:

- My tool doesnt calculate feral cat AP right, but slightly higher then live cats AP. I dont know why, so sorry, the cats AP will be "~"
- Toskk setted on default build 0/55/16. Glyphs of RiP, shreed, savage roar.
- Included BS sockets and JWCR gems as a best profesions.

Pre Ulduar top gear:
- Focused to max AGI > AP > crit. Based on highest item level.
- Im not using BiS folk, because gear Im using for calculation is slightly different from Nightcrowlers BiS. Its mainly because of my gear and I can check my tool with live numbers.
|T7head, questNeck, T7should, KTback, MalyChest, SinBinWrist, MalyHand, BeltOTTort, Sa2Dlegs, FootOTVD, Sa2Dring, badgeRing, GrTool, AGInobles, RiPidol, KTstaff|

STR - 109
AGI - 1191
feral AP - 7600~
haste - 282
hit - 269
exp - 22
crit - 537
ArPen - 204

- All the buffs + manglebot + Bloodlust/Heroism 5min duration ~6950 DPS

Ulduar similar focused gear:
- Also AGI > AP > crit. Max item level.
- I tryed to compose for being the closest hit/exp cap as possible.
|4xT8, polearm, AGInobles, GrTool ...|

STR - 244
AGI - 1415
feral AP - ~7600
haste - 193
hit - 257
exp - 21
crit - 751
ArPen - 240

- All the buffs + manglebot + Bloodlust/Heroism 5min duration ~7315 DPS

Ulduar ArPen gear:
- Composed like ArPen > AGI > AP > crit. Max item level.
- Also compose for being close to hit/exp caps.
|2xT8, polearm, GrTool, AGInobles ... |

STR - 241
AGI - 1162
feral AP - ~7300
haste - 123
hit - 291
exp - 25
crit - 379
ArPen - 670

- All the buffs + manglebot + Bloodlust/Heroism 5min duration ~7150 DPS

=====================

- The first result is, that in 3.1 will "never" be shred idol better then RiP idol. Even if you have realy crazy ArPen gear composition. Im not sure, but I can believe, that even with ArPen cap is RiP idol better ^^

- The second result is, yes, it could be posible to compose a gear, which ArPen become the best stat. But that ArPen gear dont have to be the way to max DPS.

For example, in my ArPen gear, there is a cap, when ArPen become better then agi around 510 ArPen. But if you increase your feral AP to 7600, that cap gets lower to 480 ArPen. Im not such skilled in maths to give you some graph, so sorry.

So being the man, for who is ArPen best stat is not a win. This value for ArPen become better then AGI is floating and it seems, that for DPS is best to not take ArPen, if there are possibilities to wear something with more AGI, AP, crit. It drive me personaly to focus on AGI > AP > crit and count ArPen as some bonus out of table in Ulduar. I thing that far in next major patch with new instance become the ArPen cap more actual. But in my opinion, ArPen > AGI cap is something, what we have to care and watch our gear, when geming AGI. Its not a point, which we want to get for all cost.

(!) These result couldnt be final. They are builded on items availabled, not on the ideal gears. I missed some usable rings very hard especialy for hit/exp caps

Allev · 04/08/09, 10:16 AM

That's if you use Toskk's, which assumes 100% rip uptime.

If you use FBs, and you use a tool which adds FBs at the sacrifice of rip damage (Nightcrowler's sim, SimulationCraft), you'll see armor penetration weighted more heavily. (Caveat: I haven't double-checked SC's armor penetration, I don't know if it's updated for 3.1.)

Murna · 04/08/09, 11:17 AM

Hm, I was referencing to the other thread here named "FeralbyNight".

I am quoting nightcrowler in the very first post:

Originally Posted by nightcrowler

Cat simulation

Cat build used: 0/55/16

The simulation takes all dps talents + the new Primal Gore talent and Improved Mark (you can do that).
I'm using best in slot item.
Averaged out variable: Berserk on weapon, Noble Deck (agility), Grim Troll (Armor Penetration)
I'm using Shred idol and 2T7 (head and shoulders), actually 4T7 is a dps loss with best in slot items.
I'm also using all possible raid buff + flask + food.

------

Priority List
There isn't a real rotation, it's more a priority list.

1) If ooc proc use shred or rake if rake is down
1) Keep SR up (with 1+ cp)
2) Keep RIP up with 5 CP
3) Use FB if the condition are good: I've made some theorycraft about it. Basically the program compute on the fly the average waiting time to generate 2 cp to refresh SR and then 5 CP to refresh RIP (or the other way around), then it compute the DPS difference between FB and RIP and the acceptable RIP downtime to find the right SR timer and RIP timer value condition to use FB. The value that you will found in the sim report are based on normal condition (no heroism, no berserk) the value used in the sim (and that I will use in the addon) will adjust themself on the fly.
4) Keep mangle up
5) keep rake up
6) Use shred to generate CP with energy micromanage to avoid rake/mangle downtime (basically use it if you will have enough energy to refresh rake/mangle when they expire or simply use shred if you have 3+ cp)
7) If you are going to lose SR before you can reapply it -> use your CP to refresh SR (yes SR clipping is good)
8) If you have 5 cp and you are going to waste energy waiting rip to expire (you have more than 95 energy) -> try to reapply rip, otherwise wait for rip to expire.

I also found a series of condition about berserk usage and tiger fury usage with the other abilities, for more specific insight you can read the following LUA code from my addon:

		if ((((sr < lag) and (cp>0)) or (cp==5 and sr < srvsfb_time)) and (energy>=sr_energy or ooc > 0)) then
				return FeralbyNight.L["Savage Roar"]
				
		elseif ((tf < lag) and (energy < 35) and (berserk < 165) and (cp<5 or rip<GCD+lag)) then
			return FeralbyNight.L["Tiger's Fury"]
			
        elseif (ooc > 0) then
			if (mangle < lag and trauma < lag and energy<(mangle_energy-10)) then
				return FeralbyNight.L["Mangle (Cat)"]
			else
				return FeralbyNight.L["Shred"]
			end
		
		elseif ((berserk < lag) and (energy >= 70) and (sr > GCD+lag) and (tf>=23) and (FeralbyNightdb.Berserk == true)) then
			return FeralbyNight.L["Berserk"]
		
		
		elseif ((mangle < lag) and (trauma < lag) and (energy>=mangle_energy) and cp<5) then
			return FeralbyNight.L["Mangle (Cat)"]



		
		elseif ((rake < lag) and cp<5 and (mangle >= lag or trauma >= lag)  and (energy>=rake_energy) and ((mangle > ((rake_energy+mangle_energy-10-energy)/10) and cp<3) or cp>=3 or sr<(GCD+lag))) then
			return FeralbyNight.L["Rake"]
		

				elseif ((energy>=shred_energy) and cp<5 and (((tf<((shred_energy+rake_energy-10-energy)/10) and ((mangle > ((shred_energy+mangle_energy-10-koj_m1-energy)/10) and rake > ((shred_energy+rake_energy-10-koj_m1-energy)/10) and cp<3 and (mangle >= lag or trauma >= lag) and rake>(lag) ) or sr<(GCD+lag))) or (((mangle > ((shred_energy+mangle_energy-10-energy)/10) and rake > ((shred_energy+rake_energy-10-energy)/10) and cp<3 and (mangle >= lag or trauma >= lag) and rake>(lag) ) or sr<(GCD+lag)))) or cp>=3)) then
			return FeralbyNight.L["Shred"]

		
	elseif (((sr>lag) and (energy>=fb_energy or ooc > 0) and (cp==5) and (rip>lag)) and ((((rip>ripvsfb_time) or ((tf<ripvsfb_time) and (rip>ripvsfb_time_koj))) and ((sr>combovsfb_time) or ((tf<combovsfb_time) and (sr>combovsfb_time_koj)))) or (((sr>srvsfb_time) or ((tf<srvsfb_time) and (sr>srvsfb_time_koj))) and ((rip>combovsfb_time) or ((tf<combovsfb_time) and (rip>combovsfb_time_koj)))))) then
			return FeralbyNight.L["Ferocious Bite"]
	


		elseif ((sr>lag) and (energy>=rip_energy or ooc > 0) and (cp==5) and ((rip<lag))) then
			return FeralbyNight.L["Rip"]
		
		
		elseif (energy >=(rake_energy+rip_energy-10) and cp==5) then
			if (mangle < lag and trauma < lag) and (rip>=GCD) then
				return FeralbyNight.L["Mangle (Cat)"]
			elseif (rake < lag) and (rip>=GCD)  then
				return FeralbyNight.L["Rake"]
			end

		elseif((energy>=90) and (mangle>=GCD or trauma >=GCD) and (rake>=GCD) and (rip>=GCD) and cp==5) then
			return FeralbyNight.L["Shred"]
		

		elseif ((FeralbyNightdb.FFF == true) and (fff < lag) and (fffdur < 7)) then
			return FeralbyNight.L["Faerie Fire (Feral)(Rank 6)"]
		end

In the following report I've assumed 100% mangle debuff uptime (manglebot) and 100% bleed effect (if you have a manglebot it's likely that there is a bleed on the target).

CAT SIM report:

5 minute fights.
100,000 Simulations.
Time step: 0.01 seconds.
Latency: 90ms.

Aggressive Stats after all the buffs (full stacked raid + Bloodlust used 1 times in a 5 min fight)
_______________________

Cat (crit% vs. a boss (-4.8% added)): 47.5277%
Cat (AP): 10493
Expertise: 23
Hit: 7.89875%
Armor Penetration: 35.1195%
Haste (from equipment): 12.7264%

Boss base Armor (before penetration and debuff): 10643
Boss modified Armor (after penetration and debuff): 4719.89
Boss Damage Reduction (after debuff and penetration): 23.6558%
Weapon Speed Reduction % (Total without Bloodlust): 28%
Missed % (Total): 0.101248%
Dodged %: 0.553826%
_____________________________________

DPS: 6773.25 +/- 0.68, (Min-Max variance: 26.9%, Lower dps sample: 5882, Upper dps sample: 7703) , TPS: 4809

**************************************
CAT

White cat: 2105.22, Yellow cat: 4668.04
White: 31.1%
Shred: 30.5%, Avg dmg: 8233, #/cycle: 6.8),
Rake: 11.9%, Avg dmg: 8334, #/cycle: 2.6),
RIP: 20.5%, Avg dmg: 42903, #/cycle: 0.87)
Ferocious Bite: 6.0%, Avg dmg: 14257, #/cycle: 0.77, Average Energy Usage: 43)

Savage Roar uptime: 98.0%
Average Cycle Time: 27.0 s

Stats value

Stat	points		Error	dps value		Error
Armor Pen	28.2	+/-	0.1	1.49	+/-	0.01
Agility	25.9	+/-	0.1	1.37	+/-	0.01
Feral AP	12.0	+/-	0.1	0.63	+/-	0.01
Strengh	23.8	+/-	0.1	1.26	+/-	0.01
Crit	21.4	+/-	0.1	1.13	+/-	0.01
Hit	21.6	+/-	0.1	1.14	+/-	0.01
Expertise	21.6	+/-	0.1	1.14	+/-	0.01
Haste	20.8	+/-	0.1	1.10	+/-	0.01
AP	10.0	+/-	0.1	0.53	+/-	0.01

Best in slot gear (pre Ulduar, 3.1 rules)

Slot	Item
Head	Valorous Dreamwalker Headguard
Neck	Favor of the Dragon Queen
Shoulders	Valorous Dreamwalker Shoulderpads
Chest	Chestguard of the Recluse
Waist	Stalk-Skin Belt
Legs	Leggings of the Honored
Feet	Footwraps of Vile Deceit
Wrist	Wristwraps of the Cutthroat
Hands	Frosted Adroit Handguards
Finger1	Surge Needle Ring
Finger2	Greatring of Collision
Trinket1	Grim Toll
Trinket2	Darkmoon Card: Greatness (agility)
Back	Drape of the Deadly Foe
MainHand	Journey's End + berserking
Idol	Idol of the Ravenous Beast
ExtraWaistSocket	Fractured Scarlet Ruby

Everything socketed with 16 Arpen + one 8 hit/12 stam and 21 agi +3% crit meta.

Discussion
The best in slot trinkets are grim toll and the agility darkmoon card.
Shred idol is better than RIP idol. Shred idol scales better with ArPen..
It's important to notice that all stats scales about lineary in relative value. All but Armor Pen, the more you have, the better it is.
There are 2 boundary lines about ArPen:
At about 350 ArPen with RIP idol and 200 ArPen with Shred idol, ArPen becames a better stats than agility.
For a similar reason at about 230 ArPen Shred idol becames better than RIP idol.

In the following table you can find set-bonus value (the gear is the same, I've changed only set bonuses):

Set Bonus	Idol	DPS	Difference
2T7	Shred	6773	-
2T7	RIP	6758	-15
4T7	Shred	6827	54
2T7*+2T8	Shred	6900	127
4T8**	Shred	6866	93

* I've assumed 2% proc chance.
**with 4T8 (2T8 & 4T8 bonuses) the best wait time for SR is 1 CP instead of 2 CPs.

About Glyph choce
Abviously if you have a mangle bot the best glyph choce is: SR+RIP+SHRED but what about mangle?

Glyphs	DPS
SR+RIP+SHRED	6534
RIP+SHRED+MANGLE	6457
SR+MANGLE+SHRED	6451
SR+RIP+MANGLE	6346

So SR+RIP+SHRED combo is the best choce ALSO if you don't have someone who keeps mangle up for you.

His simulation clearly shows ArmorPen as the most important stat after 200 ArmorPen and shred idol.

When I load the pre 3.1 BiS Gear into RAWR, i get 6683 DPS, all socketed with Agility. When I replace all Agility gems with ArmorPen gems, i get 6688 DPS. And the more ArmorPen I get, the better it is compared to Agility.

But I checked again and you are right - Rip idol is still by far better than shred Idol.

Thaeryn · 04/08/09, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by mydhrin

I'm sorry, I will go out of this discussion for a second and ask about what kind of rotation you guys were using during a Berserk. Personally, I usually keep Berserk for Heroism and then I'm not sure whether to spam shred or try and keep my full rotation going. Any of you guys ever made some testing on this? Thanks!

Saving Berserk for a Heroism won't increase the effectiveness of your Berserk. The extra haste from Heroism only increases our white attacks, and thus only provides more Clearcasts. If anything, this can actually lead to having too much energy during your Berserk, and not enough GCD's to spend it. I typically pop Berserk within the first 15 seconds of a fight and then every time it comes up afterwards (not often with the speed that bosses are dying now). This allows you to open with a Mangle->1-2CP SR->Rake->Shred->TF->Berserk->Shred/Rake to 5CP->Rip->Shred/Rake/Mangle to 5CP->SR. This will get your rotation setup quickly at the beginning of the fight.

On fights like Thaddius, Loatheb, or Malygos, you will want to save your first Berserk for when you get one of the damage increasing buffs/debuffs.

If you have on use trinkets, then I could see an argument for waiting for the Heroism to use Berserk. Activating your trinkets, using berserk, haste pot, and Heroism could set you up for some really good burst. This would be especially effective on fights where a burn is needed at a specific point. This allows you to take the most advantage of the extra damage increase on your trinkets for both white and special attacks. If this is not the case though, don't bother waiting for the Heroism.

Murna · 04/08/09, 11:43 AM

Well since Hysteria and Death Wish no longer stack in 3.1, the cat is the best target for the Blood-Dk's Hysteria!

Berserk and Hysteria stacks and should be used together, and Hysteria stacks with Bloodlust and should be used together.

Thus, if you will get the Hysteria in your raid, you need to wait with Berserk for Bloodlust + Hysteria.

david0925 · 04/08/09, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Murna

Well since Hysteria and Death Wish no longer stack in 3.1, the cat is the best target for the Blood-Dk's Hysteria!

Berserk and Hysteria stacks and should be used together, and Hysteria stacks with Bloodlust and should be used together.

Thus, if you will get the Hysteria in your raid, you need to wait with Berserk for Bloodlust + Hysteria.

I am pretty sure Hysteria does not stack with any Enrage effect, and Savage Roar is considered an Enrage effect in 3.1, so you'll never get Hysteria unless you let SR drop (which will net you a dps loss regardless)

mydhrin · 04/08/09, 11:54 AM

Thank you for your input guys!

Murna · 04/08/09, 12:14 PM

Classes: General

Hysteria, Tricks of the Trade, Enrage, Wrecking Crew, Death Wish, Arcane Power, Owlkin Frenzy, Beast Within, and Avenging Wrath damage bonuses no longer stack together.

As you can see, Savage Roar is not included in this list. But I have to admit, SR amplifies Dmg by x%, as all other abilities mentioned do. It would be quite hard if it doesn't stack either =(

Thaeryn · 04/08/09, 12:17 PM

The biggest difference is that SR does not have a cooldown and is meant to be up all the time. All of those abilities are cooldowns. I may need to jump on the PTR to find out for sure, but it may in fact be true that feral druids are the best choice for Hysteria targets now. If that IS the case, then consider the Hysteria buff to be the same case as using on-use trinkets when deciding when to Berserk. Haste pot + Hysteria + Berserk + Bloodlust/Heroism will definitely be your best use of cooldowns.

david0925 · 04/08/09, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by Murna

Classes: General

Hysteria, Tricks of the Trade, Enrage, Wrecking Crew, Death Wish, Arcane Power, Owlkin Frenzy, Beast Within, and Avenging Wrath damage bonuses no longer stack together.

As you can see, Savage Roar is not included in this list. But I have to admit, SR amplifies Dmg by x%, as all other abilities mentioned do. It would be quite hard if it doesn't stack either =(

Also from Patch Notes
Savage Roar is now considered an Enrage effect and now increases physical damage done by 30% instead of increasing attack power.

I realize that maybe it's just an Enrage effect for the sake of being able to be dispelled, I guess it's how you take the wording. I will hop on PTR in a bit to test this myself.

Murna · 04/08/09, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by Thaeryn

The biggest difference is that SR does not have a cooldown and is meant to be up all the time. All of those abilities are cooldowns

That is not entirely true. Wrecking Crew is an Arms-Warrior Talent with 5 points. It increases dmg by 2/4/6/8/10% everytime you crit for 12 seconds. This should be up all the time as well.

Originally Posted by david0925

Also from Patch Notes
Savage Roar is now considered an Enrage effect and now increases physical damage done by 30% instead of increasing attack power.

I realize that maybe it's just an Enrage effect for the sake of being able to be dispelled, I guess it's how you take the wording. I will hop on PTR in a bit to test this myself.

Somebody on the PTR really needs to test it, but by Enrage I guess they mean the Bearform Ability Enrage, which increases Dmg by 15%, when you have skilled KotJ 3/3.