Cat DPS Rotation - Page 62

tlbj6142 · 04/08/09, 3:46 PM

I'm trying to make sense of 3.1 and ArPen vs. Agi vs. Idol choices...

I'm never going to get the Rip Idol since I don't run 25-man content. Which leaves me with the Shred idol. Do I favor ArPen? Or Agi? We don't have any warriors in my guild, so I'll never have sunders up (unless pally or DK tanks have something similar), does this mean that I should favor ArPen over Agi? Given that I have to use the Shred idol, I think this means I should favor Shred over Rake in my rotation, correct?

Thaeryn · 04/08/09, 4:22 PM

I've done some work with Nightcrowler's simulator to try and determine how we will want to use Ferocious Bite in 3.1.

As far as how the simulation decides when to Ferocious Bite, here is the explanation from Nightcrowler:

3) Use FB if the condition are good: I've made some theorycraft about it. Basically the program compute on the fly the average waiting time to generate 2 cp to refresh SR and then 5 CP to refresh RIP (or the other way around), then it compute the DPS difference between FB and RIP and the acceptable RIP downtime to find the right SR timer and RIP timer value condition to use FB. The value that you will found in the sim report are based on normal condition (no heroism, no berserk) the value used in the sim (and that I will use in the addon) will adjust themself on the fly.

I modified some of the debug output of the simulator to give me a good picture of what was going on when it decided to use Ferocious Bite. I've put a couple of the fights into a google spreadsheet along with average dps using the default setup in the simulator at 10,000 5-minute fights both with Ferocious Bite and without it.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...VMwmnCzxIt5OQw

A quick breakdown for those that just want the info:

Average DPS w/FB: 6532.71
Average DPS w/o FB: 6387.25

Ferocious Bite seems to typically be used when energy is at 35 and the timers of both SR+Rip are more than 24. There are some cases where bite is used with energy levels as high as 83 or with SR+Rip timers as low as 18 seconds, but they are a bit more rare. Individually, the SR or Rip timers may be as low as 4 seconds. As long as the other timer is fairly high, the simulation still deems it a DPS increase.

When viewing the debug information, I was also able to see the time in the fight that the Ferocious Bites happened, and many times the first FB occurred at about the 14 second mark. This is about the right amount of time to get a Mangle->SR->Rake/Shred/Berserk to 5CP->Rip->Rake/Shred/Mangle to 5CP->Ferocious Bite while still having 4-8 seconds on SR. A 2 CP SR would then be used to get SR back up, then 5 more CP to refresh Rip when it falls off. This kind of management of the timers should allow about 7-8 Ferocious Bites in a 5 minute fight.

If anything, it will be better to err on the side of caution once 3.1 comes out. Nightcrowler is also developing an add-on that will compute all the same values as his simulation does and indicate when a FB should be used for a DPS increase while in-game. Until then, or for those who prefer to not use addons, this should help with determining when to use FB to maximize dps.

• sordee · 04/08/09, 4:45 PM

Originally Posted by tlbj6142

I'm trying to make sense of 3.1 and ArPen vs. Agi vs. Idol choices...

I'm never going to get the Rip Idol since I don't run 25-man content. Which leaves me with the Shred idol. Do I favor ArPen? Or Agi? We don't have any warriors in my guild, so I'll never have sunders up (unless pally or DK tanks have something similar), does this mean that I should favor ArPen over Agi? Given that I have to use the Shred idol, I think this means I should favor Shred over Rake in my rotation, correct?

The Naxx Idol will be purchasable for 25 Emblems of Valor in 3.1. (Drops in Ulduar 10 and Naxx 25)

Alcohorlick · 04/09/09, 7:09 AM

Originally Posted by sordee

The Naxx Idol will be purchasable for 25 Emblems of Valor in 3.1. (Drops in Ulduar 10 and Naxx 25)

Do you have a source for this?
I've not seen it anywhere, but will be glad if it is to happen.

Inaiwae · 04/09/09, 7:21 AM

Blue post: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> T8 with Badges of Valor, yes or no??

"... Currently the only items I noticed added to the emblem of valor quartermaster are the relic items that were in Naxx. Examples: Sigil of Awareness, Idol of Awakening, Libram of Resurgence, Totem of Hex, etc. ..."

Alcohorlick · 04/09/09, 8:52 AM

Cheers, I'd gone and found it on Blue Tracker after I'd asked the question (Mental note on the order I should have done those 2 things...), but it's sometimes nicer to see the whole original thread.
At least now I won't go so bottom-lip-wobbly when it drops and one of the other 4-5 ferals in our raid alliance wins it.

tlbj6142 · 04/09/09, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by foxglove

Are you taking into account raid buffs/debuffs to get these numbers? My fiddling with Rawr 2.2.0b6 shows that, raid buffed and at a potential of 464 ArP in gear I have (Rip Idol, Grim Toll, Naxx 25 stuff), ArP > Agi only if Sunder Armor is not on the target. It actually appears to make a pretty big difference. The only reason I was testing this scenario is that my guild was actually without a warrior for a month and our rogues are undergeared; I'd imagine the majority of raids have this debuff at all times. I suppose in 10-man it is more likely that there will be no Sunder/Expose, but gemming for agility when 3.1 goes live still seems better if you do typically have sunders. (In Ulduar gear, ArP takes over with or without sunders.)

I only run 10-mans, and we don't have a warrior in the guild (dual pally tanks, or pally/dk combo). Now that I know I can get the Rip Idol (thanks sordee), it seems as though I should stack ArPen and use the Rip Idol?? Though the numbers from foxglove and murna, make me think I should stick with the Shred idol as I can reach ~200 ArPen far easier than 350 or so required for the Rip idol. We often have a Rogue, so I would hope Expose is available...

I just might have to break down and figure out how to run the simulator tools (NCs, SimulationCraft) myself, as it seems the differences between 10 and 25 man raid setups has a dramatic affect on how I should gear/spec. And most of the "public" stat weight listings (and gear choices) assume 25-man.

bloodcurdler · 04/11/09, 11:30 PM

I've been reading this thread and the feralbynight thread and don't understand what a manglebot is. I thought it might be an addon but there was nothing in curse

Mijae · 04/11/09, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by bloodcurdler

I've been reading this thread and the feralbynight thread and don't understand what a manglebot is. I thought it might be an addon but there was nothing in curse

A manglebot is someone that provides the bleed increase debuff for you so that you do not have to mangle yourself. This could be a bear tank, another cat, or an arms warrior with Trauma.

brutish · 04/13/09, 2:03 PM

Originally Posted by david0925

I am pretty sure Hysteria does not stack with any Enrage effect, and Savage Roar is considered an Enrage effect in 3.1, so you'll never get Hysteria unless you let SR drop (which will net you a dps loss regardless)

Does anyone have an update on how this mechanic is working on the PTR/how it is assumed that it will work come patch?

Also the wording suggests to me that the "Enrage" referred to in the patch note:

Hysteria, Tricks of the Trade, Enrage, Wrecking Crew, Death Wish, Arcane Power, Owlkin Frenzy, The Beast Within and Avenging Wrath damage bonuses no longer stack together.

is specifically the warrior enrage Enrage - Spell - World of Warcraft, and that there is no implication of this applying to ALL enrage effects generally. Is this incorrect?

[Edit: clarification]

Murna · 04/13/09, 2:27 PM

As I already mentioned it could also mean

Druid - Enrage in combination with

King of The Jungle

Viia · 04/13/09, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by Murna

As I already mentioned it could also mean

Druid - Enrage in combination with

King of The Jungle

It says "enrage in bear form" which rules out savage roar.

rehtonAesoohC · 04/14/09, 1:40 PM

Yes, it looks like Savage Roar will work with Hysteria, but then again, we will have to test to confirm.

Latas · 04/15/09, 9:11 AM

I tested on live if Hysteria stacked with Savage Roar and as far as i could tell it definitly did.

Viia · 04/15/09, 1:16 PM

So, with the new savage roar... does it still need to be up BEFORE you RIP or can it be up after you RIP and still have an effect?