Cat DPS Rotation - Page 82

Vinen · 06/18/09, 9:32 AM

Originally Posted by Cliffjumper

Hodir can be a big RNG fight in that oftentimes, the Storm Cloud buff (which allows the buffer to spread Storm Power) may happen to a ranged player, and they don't run that into the melee. Also, the buffs on the fight tend to favor casters over physical melee classes. I'm seeing numbers somewhat similar to yours, but our casters, with the right stuff happening, are blowing up the meters at 10k+ on that fight. Really, the mechanics favor them pretty heavily, so your casters should be beating you by that much, at least in my experience.

This is very much the case. I've broken 10k numerous times but they have mostly been with 3 or more Storm Power buffs. I usually average in the mid 9k with just 2.

I did around 11k on <2min 10man Hodir kill in early May with 1 minute of Storm Power uptime.
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay

Is Rake even worth refreshing while Storm Power is up? I'd assume its value diminishes greatly because outside the initial hit it cannot crit.

foxglove · 06/18/09, 6:23 PM

Hodir is definitely all about the Storm Power buff. Your guild's strat is important here. DPS with the buff, particularly melee, need to stand on top of the tank, and your tank moves the boss near light beams. This increases your DPS and keeps you from pulling aggro... well, it helps, anyway. I seem to get threat capped at around 9.5k DPS on that encounter, unfortunately.

Cliffjumper · 06/18/09, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by Vinen

This is very much the case. I've broken 10k numerous times but they have mostly been with 3 or more Storm Power buffs. I usually average in the mid 9k with just 2.

I did around 11k on <2min 10man Hodir kill in early May with 1 minute of Storm Power uptime.
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay

Is Rake even worth refreshing while Storm Power is up? I'd assume its value diminishes greatly because outside the initial hit it cannot crit.

I have no hard numbers, but I would vote that it is worth it in no small part due to CC procs from T8 2 piece set bonus.

foxglove · 06/18/09, 6:31 PM

Originally Posted by Cliffjumper

I have no hard numbers, but I would vote that it is worth it in no small part due to CC procs from T8 2 piece set bonus.

This would be worthwhile to calculate--how many extra Shreds does the full duration of Rake give you with 2pT8? If the answer is bigger than the energy cost of Rake, it is definitely worthwhile.

Unrelated:

# Mangle: Ranks 4 and 5 base points reduced by about 11%. Scaling from attack power unchanged.
# Rake: Ranks 6 and 7 base points on initial and periodic damage reduced by about 7%. Scaling from attack power unchanged.
# Rip: Ranks 8 and 9 base points and points per combo point reduced by about 6%. Scaling from attack power unchanged.
# Savage Defense: The animation for gaining this buff will no longer make the bear stand upright
# Shred: Ranks 8 and 9 base points reduced by about 10%. Scaling from attack power unchanged.
# Swipe (Cat): Percent of weapon damage done reduced from 260% to 250%.

Anyone have a sense of just how much of a DPS nerf we are talking about here? Do the differences in the percentages of the nerfs imply any changes to our cycle? Am I understanding correctly that these are just a fixed numerical value subtracted from the damage each ability does, or is it come out to be a percentage of the damage done? E.g., everyone's Rip - Spell - World of Warcraft would do 192 less damage over the duration regardless of gear? Shred - Spell - World of Warcraft would do 74 less damage? Is the sky falling, or is this just a relatively minor DPS adjustment?

Cliffjumper · 06/18/09, 6:41 PM

Originally Posted by foxglove

Anyone have a sense of just how much of a DPS nerf we are talking about here? Do the differences in the percentages of the nerfs imply any changes to our cycle? Am I understanding correctly that these are just a fixed numerical value subtracted from the damage each ability does, or is it come out to be a percentage of the damage done? E.g., everyone's Rip - Spell - World of Warcraft would do 192 less damage over the duration regardless of gear? Shred - Spell - World of Warcraft would do 74 less damage?

The FeralByNight thread has a few people confirming that it is a fairly small decrease in damage, less than a 200 DPS nerf or so.

Boevis · 06/19/09, 12:22 AM

Still completely unacceptable. Just because Poster-child Ensidia has a feral druid that knows his class better than many of their other players ... WMO doesn't lie and is a much better gauge of feral DPS compared to other classes than unattainable spreadsheet DPS, or a zerg guild's anecdotes. I'm most concerned with how this affects PvP, Feral lacks CC, Survivability, a Healing Debuff and now a huge chunk of DPS (lacking raid buffs and in PvP gear, Feral relied a lot more on the base damage of abilities)

I can think of a dozen other changes that would lower feral Raid DPS without affecting our viability elsewhere, not that I think feral druids should be going from "Pretty good at every fight" to "not worth bringing 2 because 1 is all you need for the buffs" But there was still other things they could do (remove Hysteria stacking) that don't result in making all my furious gear thus far, worthless.

nightcrowler · 06/19/09, 4:25 AM

@Boevis: Actually I like the way they changed it. Basically they leaved our rotation and scaling unchanged. (And our scaling was poor so it's fine that they didn't make it worst), in PVE I don't see the problem, I'm already topping the meter in basically every fight (at least vs. similar classes) a 2% dps nerf is something we will probably don't see on the meter, is most likely a "noob shut up nerf".

The main problem will be for pvp, we already aren't that good there and nerfing our base damage will probably lower our dps enough (we don't have buff there, expecially in 2vs2) to don't let us "burst enough". But still I prefer a pvp buff (for istance berserk all around immunity) than any other kind of change.

Blizzi · 06/19/09, 5:03 AM

I could not accept this nerf..
Just because Player who plays their Ferals very well. they nerfed all of ours damage-spells.
The problem is, bad players doesn't make any damage with their druid. But the others make too much.
so boring..

Deathwing · 06/19/09, 8:52 AM

That's the problem with the nerf, Nightcrowler. It's not the numbers, which will stay almost the same, it's the intent.

GC just posted last week they have to be careful not to nerf the less skilled players, yet that is exactly what this nerf is doing, although a bit indirectly. While at the same time, they aren't address the several holes ferals have to jump through to get their max dps. And I'm not talking about just our rotation. Fight mechanics basically have to be a tank 'n spank for it work out well for us. The few of those that do exist will favor other classes(casters). XT and maybe Thorim is all we got.

nightcrowler · 06/19/09, 9:45 AM

@Deathwing:
A guildie and RL friend mage told me a few days ago: "GC is mad, if feral should be that high because is a very demanding spec (in term of skill) then all class should have a demanding spec to choce, I like to play a mage for the "feeling", I don't like to spam fire ball at all, give us more button, require us more skill and we are par".
I think he has a point saying that. It's true that bad feral doesn't do too much dps and you can't balance things around top damage guys but it's also true that there are plenty of good enough feral druid doing a lot of damage (we have 3 ferals in my guid and we are topping meters in a lot of fights, so, not only me). It's also true that doing very high damage is demanding but doing good enough damage it's not. If you only use shred/SR/RIP with a manglebot (pretty common those days due to trauma of feral tanks) you'll probably do how much? 10-15% less dps, it's still high. I read the nerf in another way, they don't want to nerf us, they want to shout up criers. Also this nerf doesn't nerf less skilled player more, yes it nerf less equiped ones but actually they are reducing our yellow damage without touching our white damage (the part that doesn't need skill). The only problem I can see is for pvp really. Also probably I'm playing in a "lesser than my skill guild" but I don't see many fight were I'm not topping the meter and if a fight it's a real advantage for casters I'm still on the first few melees (exception made for hodir). XT and thorim are basically tank & spank, but also Freya, Algalon, Ignis, Mirmiron are really good fight for us due to our energy mechanincs and cd.

Juuso · 06/19/09, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Vinen

This is very much the case. I've broken 10k numerous times but they have mostly been with 3 or more Storm Power buffs. I usually average in the mid 9k with just 2.

I did around 11k on <2min 10man Hodir kill in early May with 1 minute of Storm Power uptime.
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay

Is Rake even worth refreshing while Storm Power is up? I'd assume its value diminishes greatly because outside the initial hit it cannot crit.

Short napkin math on this issue. Hope it is right. If it is, this should be something to consider while fighting Hodir. I took your wmo of Hodir and only used the average dmg done by Shred and Rake. If Shred DPE is on average higher than Rake DPE, Shred DPE should definitely be higher while having Storm Buff.
This what i came up with from your hodir log:

Average Shred Dmg: 11806 /42 = 281,1 DPE
Average Rake Dmg: 1712 Direct Dmg + 2266 * 3 Dot Dmg + (1-0,98^3) * 11806 Shred Dmg from 2 T8 /35 = 263 DPE

Ok so it seems that even on average Rake is worse DPE than Shred (even considering 2T8) on you hodir log.I hope I did not make a logical mistake here, but it seems to me it is save to assume that considering your gear level you should not Rake with storm buff up. To maximize your dps Rake without the buff but don't use Rake with the buff.
This is only 100% true for your level of gear though! Although I am pretty sure it is the same for me and many others.

Thaeryn · 06/19/09, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Juuso

Short napkin math on this issue. Hope it is right. If it is, this should be something to consider while fighting Hodir. I took your wmo of Hodir and only used the average dmg done by Shred and Rake. If Shred DPE is on average higher than Rake DPE, Shred DPE should definitely be higher while having Storm Buff.
This what i came up with from your hodir log:

Average Shred Dmg: 11806 /42 = 281,1 DPE
Average Rake Dmg: 1712 Direct Dmg + 2266 * 3 Dot Dmg + (1-0,98^3) * 11806 Shred Dmg from 2 T8 /35 = 263 DPE

Ok so it seems that even on average Rake is worse DPE than Shred (even considering 2T8) on you hodir log.I hope I did not make a logical mistake here, but it seems to me it is save to assume that considering your gear level you should not Rake with storm buff up. To maximize your dps Rake without the buff but don't use Rake with the buff.
This is only 100% true for your level of gear though! Although I am pretty sure it is the same for me and many others.

From Nightcrowler a couple pages back:

Absolubtly true. Actually I never seen that high crit in my simulated data so yes, with that crit there is probably a situation where shred>rake. The main thing is that you'll not stop using rake when rake DPE< shred DPE but you need shred being at least 10% better than rake, otherwise you still lose dps because you should also note that usually a less expensive ability (also with a lesser dpe) is a better choce because let you generate CP faster. Also with 2T8 rake increase your clearcasting chance.

The only situations when I spam shred is hodir with the crit buff, given the crit buff an abiility that can crit like shred is far better than rake.

Boevis · 06/20/09, 7:46 AM

Nightcrowler, being consistently good DPS isn't something that I would have considered needing a nerf, much like rogues in TBC we felt "right"; good enough that bringing more than 1 was ok if they were good players but not better than "pures" except with swipe-favoring fights (which, as was pointed out in the FA/FI arguments, is only good for giving us big numbers, and does not significantly contribute to defeating the boss)

As for being "among the top of the melee", when comparing among my guild, I tie the Fury warrior, and lose to the rogues on nearly every fight including significant AoE fights, obviously there's variance, but that's entirely due to a particular part of the fight that favors one or the other, I take less AoE damage, my AoE is better, I run out of things faster, get full benefit from hysteria, don't have to interrupt things, and am less affected by haste. This makes me a better choice for what, Vezax? Pretty sure my extra 500 DPS over rogues on that fight makes up for the 8k they beat me on Hodir.

I'm still going to trust WMO more than Blizzard or forum qq in terms of where druids are in relation to other players. If Blizzard is telling us that feral druids may be doing too much DPS, and I can see from numbers that we're still worse than at least 2 other classes on every fight, I'm really not sure they are looking at the right numbers.

azorac · 06/20/09, 8:06 AM

Can't really see how you can use Hodir as a reference fight? It depends alot on RNG. If you should use a fight in ulduar to compare melee dps, I would use Ignis. And I would argue that cat is about 400-500dps above where we should be, considering us being a hybrid class.

Take a look at this for example: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis our last ignis. Sure I was a bit lucky, but still.

Toranshalur · 06/20/09, 8:54 AM

On that parse, either your rogues fail or are undergeared. Rogues do deal more damage than cats, except on fights which give us a particular advantage, such as XT, mimi, yogg or vezax.