Then again:
1) I have little experience using castsequence macros.
2) It has the extreme limitation that it would only work correctly on one target.
This wouldn't work, because the reset=9 part counts from when you last pressed the macro, not from when the castsequence started. So it wouldn't Rake again until all of the Shreds have been cast.
I tend to get a SR running with my first energy (Rake + Mangle, possibly a Shred on OoC -> SR) and then drop TF + Berserk.
Using it this early will mean it'll likely be up again later in the fight, gets me to a 5point rip and 5point SR and makes it easier to maintain the rotation with a bit of luck. Timing TF + Berserk like this together will mean that they're off cooldown pretty much together again, with a few seconds to spare due to energy delays in the use of TF.
I use the same strategy now that our tank can hold agro over it.
Also, as was previously mentioned, don't use haste pots in conjunction with berserk or do it during heroism. More haste means more OoC procs, which means free attacks, which contradicts what berserk is there for. You'll probably see an overall higher dps using berserk outside of a heroism, and using a haste pot outside of both as well. Thus you'd have like a 3 min rotation, berserk, heroism, haste pot, berserk, etc.
Most fights I can get off two Berserk uses.
Also, I realized tonight that on Thaddius, you never want to use rip right after a polarity shift. Somehow my rotation ended up that I was ripping every time during a polarity shift transition (meaning the stacking debuff was down). Still pulled top 8 dps, but could have easily pulled top 5. Basically whatever you Rip at, is what determines the damage. It won't change as your modifier changes. So typically during the times of the polarity shift, just auto attack unless SR is about to wear off or a mangle with an existing bleed going.
I've been toying around with different amounts of CP for my initial SR. Toying between throwing up a 1-2 CP SR intitally and just refreshing it sooner, or building up the full 5CP right off. I know this will vary with the fight mechanics, but has anyone done math on this or tested it much?
Good point, I didn't think about those shreds at lower AP. I'll have to work out exactly when to throw a 5cp SR in afterwards, and see if that still enables a Rip early enough.
The hang up I run into is when Berzerk is up, I get Rip off so quickly that SR is still up with +10 seconds and Rip has 15+ seconds left with T7 set bonus and I'm at 5cp again, so I FB. I feel like this is a waste because I have to wait for energy again during Berzerk.
I guess I'll be giving the combat dummy some TLC tonight >: ]
Indeed, do not use ferocious bite during berserk unless you're down to 18 energy (half of 35). It's completely normal and optimal to let combo points go to waste during berserk.
you can easly do 5k dps in naxx10 gear (I'm actually doing 4k dps in blue/heroic gear with the majority of items enchanted/gemmed for tanking).
The rotation is not a rotation but a conditional algoritm.
Normal Cycle
1. If you don't have a mangle bot keep mangle up.
2. Keep rake up
3. Shred if you have both mangle and rake up but alway manage to have enough energy for mangle and rake.
4. Use Tiger Fury with less than 40 energy.
5. When ooc proc, always shred.
Finishers
1. Keep Savage Roar up with a number of combo-points >=2 (if you have more use them when it vanish, if you have less, built at least 2 cp).
2. If SR is UP, Use RIP at 5 CP.
3. If both SR and RIP is up and there are more than 5 seconds left on RIP timer use Ferocious Bite with energy <=40.
4. If you have more than 40 energy and more than 7-8 seconds left on RIP use shred (also at 5 cp).
5.If you have less than 5 seconds left on RIP refresh rip (if possible) or use shred (also at 5 cp).
With this algoritm you are usually alternate (depending on your crit/hit, etc..) between a 2SR/5RIP cycle and a 4SR/5RIP/5FB cycle. If I see my recount out of 5 finisher I usually do 3 rip and 2 FB (hit, expertise capped and 40% crit before raid buffs).
From my simulations (they are direct simulation for a full naxx10 geared feral druid with all buffs up, heroism and so on)
Finishers
1. Keep Savage Roar up with a number of combo-points >=2 (if you have more use them when it vanish, if you have less, built at least 2 cp).
2. If SR is UP, Use RIP at 5 CP.
3. If both SR and RIP is up and there are more than 5 seconds left on RIP timer use Ferocious Bite with energy <=40.
4. If you have more than 40 energy and more than 7-8 seconds left on RIP use shred (also at 5 cp).
5.If you have less than 5 seconds left on RIP refresh rip (if possible) or use shred (also at 5 cp).
Only step 5 doesn't sit well with me. Is it really worth it to refresh Rip rather than "waste" combo points by using other combo point builders while sitting at 5 combo points? Also what if you're at more than 40 energy between 5-7 seconds left on rip? Is the only time to really use FB when there's less than 5 seconds on Rip and fairly low energy?
The hit is highly important because (and you can't see it statistically) a missed hit can screw up 30-40 second of rotation easly.
I find this difficult to believe for several reasons. First, if you miss you lose at most 8 energy, along with at most one second of uptime for some particular ability (savage roar, rip, or rake), with the exception of missing a clearcasted attack. Second, there is no rigid rotation to screw up in the first place. Randomness due to primal fury and omen of clarity ensures that any rotation will be "screwed up" regardless. As a particular example, not getting a clearcast is usually a much greater loss than missing an attack (at best equal, for the case of missing a clearcasted attack).
The hit is highly important because (and you can't see it statistically) a missed hit can screw up 30-40 second of CONDITIONAL ALGORITHM [edited] easly.
[Quote edited to reflect what I believe was night's original intent.]
I find this point to be underestimated, correct and disproportionately relevant in just these forums. Theorycrafting is one thing, but too many people here approach raiding as if you're leisurely scratching away at a target dummy.
Today's WoW environment is full of target-switching and dynamic-positioning fights.
If you have 5 cp on a boss, 15sec left on SR and just got called to go deal with adds, you can reasonable expect to get away with one shot at a 5-cp Rip. If it misses and you spend another GCD or two trying to get it to land - people will be screaming for your head over vent at best, and at worst you just ate a lava wave and made yourself look like an ass in front of 24 other people that you've been working with for years. With the recent extensive nerf to miss rates there's just not much reason not to get hit-capped, it's just too easy and the opportunity cost too low. The expertise cap is another issue entirely, and expertise rating is so plentiful on most dps leather it's simply a non-issue for most of us.
Civilian, if you want to min/max your gear for static fights like Patchwerk, that's your prerogative. Personally I'd rather prepare for a broader spectrum of bossfights with a focus on events that are a challenge for reasons beyond just got-gear-got-rotation-checks. I'm sure the vast majority of theoreticians here are in very skilled company, but my last 25-man Thaddius was a mess with people not making the jump and dying for various reasons. I was not hit-capped at the time, got 5 cp and got called to battlerez our top dps machine with boss at 5%, enrage imminent and 1/4 raid dead. Rip missed. I opted to go do what I was told, got caught out in a polarity shift and didn't get back in to use the 5 cp til too late. We would've wiped anyway, but at that moment I would've LOVED to have been hitcapped.
Last edited by coldbear : 01/02/09 at 8:51 PM.
Reason: clarity
I completly agree with Coldbear.
Those results are from my simulations (target dummy like) but in real fight hit and expertise will be more important (and they are already the most important stats).
As for the miss/hit screw up, the reason is simple. In a t7 gear setup I assume that you are hit/expertise capped with about 50% crit (raid buffed). In that situation you are "near perfection" if you consider the randomness of crit and ooc proc you will see that you can basically always substain a 2SR/5RIP cycle and the vast majority of cases you can do a 4SR/5RIP/5FB cycle. With hit and expertise not capped the chance to substain that cycle goes down very very quickly and you will have a bigger chance to do a double SR cycle that screw the rotation for at least 20 seconds if not 34 due to the extra SR cycle added.
EDIT:
I've changed the computer and I missed my simul file, when I'll found them I'll post it. It's good to notice that with hit/exp capped and 50% crit you will have a "perfect average cycle" (2SR/5RIP will last 19 sec on average, 4/SR/5RIP/5FB will last 29 sec on average).
Best I can do on the training dummy only self buffed with MotW is about 2100 DPS where as Rawr says I should be doing almost 2700. Granted alot of times my ping is rather high so maybe thats what's messing me up. I do my best to follow the rules for the rotation or whatever you want to call it. Am I missing something or is it just I need to work on cleaning up my rotation?
Well, doing 2100 DPS is good. Rawr works in that case more like a simulation and you should be able to get close to the value in lag free simulation environment. The question I have would be during what time you recorded the 2100 DPS and what was the ping during the time.
The best thing is doing these in the city with the least population. On the ally side3 I would go for Exodar or Darnassus. Silvermoon might fall in the same category on the horde side. That can have major effects on lag issues. Keep that in mind and do the routines for 3-6 minutes to build up more experience with the rule set. I did that just after I hit 80.
edit: check your gear and especially regarding hit rating. you are at over 9%. You need only 8%.
I thought it was 9% or 295 hit rating for Heroic Raid bosses? I know I'm over that slightly because of gear. Yeah it's good DPS but not as close to the predicted amount according to Rawr. I mean granted that Rawr is an optimal completing the rotation perfect type thing. Still I'd like to be only 200 off rather than 600. Ping varies. Tonight it was around 100 othertimes I'll be up in 300 to 400 but the upload of the connection I'm on has some serious issues so that could be part of it I guess.
I'm sure it's out there and I'm gonna go look in a sec but does Rawr average in over time the use of Trinkets and Berserk as well? If it does that's prolly part of my problem I've been trying to avoid using them so I could get a better idea and focus mainly on the base rotation I have to keep up. I wish there was an option to turn off the use of both in Rawr if that's the case.
It is 8% or 263 Rating according to [FAQ]Working theories of raiding at level 80 I have not looked up the detailed explanations, but there was something a long these lines in the Feral numbers post.
Yes, Rawr calculates in Berserk and trinkets. There should be somewhere a mouse over explaning the skils used in ther Rotation.
Rawr is also using Rake that includes Savage fury isn't it? That won't account for the whole discrepancy but it will account for some. Also, check your crit rate vs your char sheet crit rate. I spent 10 min on a dummy (simulating a longish boss fight) and my actual crit rate was near 10% lower than my sheet crit rate. RNG can screw you sometimes. Finally theres cooldown/proc usage. Rawr averages procs out but if for some reason your mirror is always proccing after you've ripped you're "losing" some DPS. Not using berserk/TF in an ideal manner also can be a part of it.
Yeah I saw the mouse over but it doesn't mention trinket and berserk being averaged in. I was able to get much closer 2330 when I tried again this time using the trinket's and berserk. Initially I started off only about 50 dps short of the projected figures but it lowered down by 300 dps by the end of the 3 minutes so I'm not to unhappy much closer than before.
Thanks for answering questions. I don't know where I got confused about my hit rating that makes it much easier though for me to switch gear around.
Yeah I figured 100 to 200 dps was just due to badluck if I was that low 600 dps I was like uhhh I'm doing something wrong
Originally Posted by Valerian
Rawr is also using Rake that includes Savage fury isn't it? That won't account for the whole discrepancy but it will account for some. Also, check your crit rate vs your char sheet crit rate. I spent 10 min on a dummy (simulating a longish boss fight) and my actual crit rate was near 10% lower than my sheet crit rate. RNG can screw you sometimes. Finally theres cooldown/proc usage. Rawr averages procs out but if for some reason your mirror is always proccing after you've ripped you're "losing" some DPS. Not using berserk/TF in an ideal manner also can be a part of it.
I was wondering about that too if it uses the broken Rake currently in game or the fix that's coming with the next patch.
Only step 5 doesn't sit well with me. Is it really worth it to refresh Rip rather than "waste" combo points by using other combo point builders while sitting at 5 combo points? Also what if you're at more than 40 energy between 5-7 seconds left on rip?
basically you want to use one of those things:
a) fb
b) shred then fb
c) wait for energy to replenish and rip
d) rip
wich one you use depends on your energy value, rip timer and your crit/ap values.
Usually it's safe to assume (with 2t7+glyph) that fb with 8+ sec on rip and <40 energy it's ok.
With less than 4-6 seconds it's usualy better to wait for about 80 energy and then rip.
Between 4 and 8 second really depends on gear and situation, I've studied a "formula" but it's not applicable in real game fights.
If you have 5 cp on a boss, 15sec left on SR and just got called to go deal with adds, you can reasonable expect to get away with one shot at a 5-cp Rip. If it misses and you spend another GCD or two trying to get it to land - people will be screaming for your head over vent at best, and at worst you just ate a lava wave and made yourself look like an ass in front of 24 other people that you've been working with for years. With the recent extensive nerf to miss rates there's just not much reason not to get hit-capped, it's just too easy and the opportunity cost too low. The expertise cap is another issue entirely, and expertise rating is so plentiful on most dps leather it's simply a non-issue for most of us.
Civilian, if you want to min/max your gear for static fights like Patchwerk, that's your prerogative. Personally I'd rather prepare for a broader spectrum of bossfights with a focus on events that are a challenge for reasons beyond just got-gear-got-rotation-checks. I'm sure the vast majority of theoreticians here are in very skilled company, but my last 25-man Thaddius was a mess with people not making the jump and dying for various reasons. I was not hit-capped at the time, got 5 cp and got called to battlerez our top dps machine with boss at 5%, enrage imminent and 1/4 raid dead. Rip missed. I opted to go do what I was told, got caught out in a polarity shift and didn't get back in to use the 5 cp til too late. We would've wiped anyway, but at that moment I would've LOVED to have been hitcapped.
First, a remark. I do not optimize gear for static fights, nor can I see how that claim could possibly have followed from my previous posts. In fact, I do not believe I have even once mentioned static or non-static fights in this thread.
Now let us attempt to estimate numerically how the value of hit changes for a non-static fight. In a static fight, damage is proportional to
(1-miss chance)(white damage fraction) + (1-miss chance/5)(fraction of damage from energy) + (1-miss chance)^2 (fraction of damage from omen of clarity).
(Explanation: a missed attack using energy only costs 1/5 the energy, and omen of clarity is affected twice by miss chance: first in the proc rate, and second in the clearcasted attack itself.) The white damage fraction is about .3, and the yellow damage fraction overall is about .7. Energy regenerates at 720/minute (10*60 passive + 120 from tiger's fury), and omen of clarity procs about 3.5 times per minute, thus being worth about 140 energy. Thus, the energy fraction is about .7*720/(720+140) = .59 and the omen fraction is about .7*140/(720+140) = .11. Damage is then proportional to
(1-miss) .3 + (1-miss/5) .59 + (1-miss)^2 .11
If miss chance is small, then we can approximate (1-miss)^2 as (1-2*miss), so the expression simplifies to
1-.64*miss
or
0.95+.64*hit,
since miss = .08-hit.
Now let us model our non-static fight by making the player lose contact with the target every, say, minute of dps time. For the last attack before each such event, we say that a miss costs the full energy cost of the attack, since the player will not get a second chance, and we suppose that contact is lost long enough for the energy to regenerate to full. These attacks represent 40 energy/minute, and thus .59*40/720 = .03 of the damage. Damage is now proportional to
The mechanics of this non-static fight therefore increased the value of hit rating by a factor of 66/64 = 1.03 relative to a static fight. This is a very marginal increase: if hit rating were worth 1.3 strength in a static fight, it would be worth 1.34 strength in this non-static fight.
Civilan it's not the math flawless but the assumptions, You are considering damage without CP, CD, buffs. A missed attack is not only a damage loss or energy loss but also a cp loss that became a buff/dot possibly expire. What really make hit the best stats while it wasn't in the past is that now we have a really tight cycle, while before we had a lot of waiting time.
You lose more when attack hits instead of critting, than when an attack misses instead of hitting. You lose more when omen of clarity doesn't proc than when an attack misses. The random elements of critical hits and omen of clarity procs will throw off a cycle much more than a nonzero miss chance.
I'm not ignoring combo points. It is possible to relate combo points, energy, and damage based on the costs of one's abilities such that it is sufficient to provide only one of those values (or two, depending on how much information is given). For example, you could say a missed shred costs 4000 damage (or whatever) and 1 combo point, but gains you 33.6 energy. Or equivalently, you could just say it costs 8.4 energy and no damage or combo points. All combo point generation results from special attacks which are fueled by energy, so it is reasonable to ignore combo points and account for energy instead when looking at the damage distribution.
As for buffs, yes, a missed attack can cost 1 second of uptime (as I acknowledged earlier). I still contend that this is not very significant.
Finally, we still have a lot of waiting time. Energy regenerates at 860/minute (600 passive + 120 tiger's fury + 140 omen of clarity), or 14/second. The average energy cost of an ability is somewhere around 35 energy. Thus we are using abilities on average every 2.5 seconds, i.e. we are only spending 2/5 or 40% of the time using abilities. (I ignored berserk here - obviously during berserk, close to all of the time is spent attacking. In this case a miss can cost more.)
You lose more when attack hits instead of critting, than when an attack misses instead of hitting. You lose more when omen of clarity doesn't proc than when an attack misses. The random elements of critical hits and omen of clarity procs will throw off a cycle much more than a nonzero miss chance.
You are saying you think lose more by missing an OoC proc, which can be improve by reaching the +hit and -dodge cap, but at the same time don't think you lose as much by not being capped?
I hope you realise that is a little contradictory.
Many people are saying that they prefer to hit the cap on +hit and -dodge because it makes the human element much easier to maximise. I fall into this group as I find myself with enough things to monitor in most encounters.
I like the assurance of knowing that in X seconds, at most, I will have enough combo points to refresh Rip or Savage Roar.
While crits will effect the amount of combo points you get they shorten the time to get to finishers not lengthen it, this gives you a much greater degree of accuracy on whether you will be able to get the Rip off before running from timed boss abilities or needing to go bear for picking up adds.
Edit.
I just realised I was in the right thread for a question I have been meaning to ask.
For anyone else running Mongoose on your cat weapon, what have you found the up time to be like?
From the runs I looked at which a friend logged and displayed with StasisCL the up time was only about 30% on Patchwerk. At that level I don't need to be brilliant at maths to know other enchants would be better.
You are saying you think lose more by missing an OoC proc, which can be improve by reaching the +hit and -dodge cap, but at the same time don't think you lose as much by not being capped?
I hope you realise that is a little contradictory.
That is not what I said. I said you lose more by not getting an omen of clarity proc, i.e. by omen of clarity failing to proc within some arbitrary interval.
Edit: maybe I misunderstood you. Hit and expertise indeed increase the chance for omen of clarity to proc within some interval. That is beside the point, which was that a missed special attack is not particularly disruptive to the ability rotation.
Put another way, the effect of hit rating and expertise on omen of clarity proc rate is already accounted for by the existing models and simulations. The discussion of which my post was a part entirely concerned the effects of hit and expertise that were not accounted for by these models and simulations.
Edit.
I just realised I was in the right thread for a question I have been meaning to ask.
For anyone else running Mongoose on your cat weapon, what have you found the up time to be like?
From the runs I looked at which a friend logged and displayed with StasisCL the up time was only about 30% on Patchwerk. At that level I don't need to be brilliant at maths to know other enchants would be better.
Am I just deluding myself in thinking there is some remote possibility to perform with near perfection as a DPS kitty on any fight with a modicum of movement required? When it comes to my gear I'm kind of optimized, but my damage in any fight that matters doesn't seem to match that of the mainstream DPS classes. Sure, I can average fourth on damage done on most fights, but there's just too much happening to keep track of four debuffs, one positionally impaired high energy combo generator, one short duration combo point driven buff and two semi-active cooldowns - especially when the boss turns/moves/forces me into movement.
I'm not sure I want to ask Blizzard to dumb down feral dps, but at this point it doesn't really seem worth spending 4x the effort of any other class (save perhaps Affliction warlock) and still not being number one.
Does anyone know if someone is developing or is thinking of developing some addon which runs the feral algorithm and derives the next course of action given all the circumstances (energy, cps, debuffs, buffs, cooldowns) in realtime? I figure it would be possible to code (think ShockAndAwe) and it would make my job, and the job of every other kitten out there, much less of a hassle.
12/29/08, 6:56 AM
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