Duilliath

Bad. Real bad. We wiped.

Which leads me to the following question - mostly I've been focusing on avoidance or stamina. However, with yesterday's raid I lost my last source of hit, which was scarce on my bear gear to begin with. I don't tank enough currently to use the Growl glyph, but Gluth and 4H can be awkward. Where are you guys finding your hit?

An thenn tehy wuz al ded. Srsly. (Exodus 1)

 

Melthu

For me, the answer is that I'm not. [Glyph of Growl] and 64 hit rating from my [Thrusting Bands] and [Gatekeeper] is all I use and I haven't had a problem. Consider the 2 fights that you mentioned. Even if Gluth resists growl 3 times in a row that's what, at most 2 more stacks of Mortal Wound? We usually taunt at 3 stacks, but if you get a string of resists and your other tank gets to 5 stacks it's just not that dangerous. As for 4 horsemen, I could see the argument for putting together a +hit rating set if your raid leader insists on swapping the front two death knights, but it would probably take less energy to convince him/her to use the "zerg Thane Korth'azz without switching" strat.

 

kalbear

It's not the end of the world. It's 8 seconds more where you're not swapping. Most raids can survive 4 marks on people for a while. It's not ideal, but it shouldn't end up being catastrophic unless you're a bit undergeared.

 

thalys

Unless you're going for the simultaneous achievement on 4h, I'm not too sure why you wouldn't just zerg rush Thane down with the bear tank on Rivendare. I comfortably (well, not comfortably) took 6 stacks on an attempt where the Thane side got too spaced out and lost their healer to a meteor and then slowly lost the rest. Sure, we wiped, but a bear tank in reasonable gear can stand in on Rivendare for an awfully long time--and that means you don't have to taunt anything at all. As long as the zerg group can keep themselves to 4 stacks, you'll be fine. (that gives them time to run in, and then you to run out, without going past 6 stacks.)

You'll want to have the healers swap though. They tend to get flattened several stacks earlier.

And yes, it's perfectly possible to rush Thane down in a 3-heal 10-man setup, despite some fanciful claims I've heard to the contrary (though not here).

 

Inaiwae

Taunt glyph has no impact on boss fights. I believe that bosses where taunt is critical have 1% taunt resist which cannot be lowered anymore (if it stays as it was in BC), and on other bosses taunt is just not important.

I tank with cca 80 hit rating, and i dont recall any taunt resists on 4h.

 

• Falk

If Taunt follows conventional spell mechanics (other than the change in TBC to work off melee hit rating; don't think anyone has re-tested this as of 3.x.x) then I'd assume the 1% unmitigatable resist is also gone. On fights where taunts are critical, like Razuvious and 4 Horsemen as mentioned, bosses have a reduced resist rate on Taunt, similar to Brutallus in TBC.

What needs to be tested now is how the new, unified hit rating itself affects taunts - still following the melee conversion rate, or the slightly better spell conversion rate.

 

swiftly

i know the OLD avoidance macro was:
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5+(G etCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)*150/355 +20)*0.04,1,0.5,0)


would these macros work or am i missing something to make this work properly?

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage MIT = (.12+(.88)(GetArmor)/(GetArmor+16635))

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage AVD = (GetDodgeChance()+(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)*150/355 +20))

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage EEF = (GetDodgeChance()+(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)*150/355 +20))+(.12+(.88)(GetArmor)/(GetArmor+16635))(1-(GetDodgeChance()+(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)*150/355 +20)))

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage TTL = (GetHitPoint()/(1-(GetDodgeChance()+(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)*150/355 +20))+(.12+(.88)(GetArmor)/(GetArmor+16635))(1-(GetDodgeChance()+(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)*150/355 +20)))))

 

mesullivan

In an exchange I had with grubnik in the pre-raid tank gear thread in late november, it was assumed by both of us that armor TTL essentially did not change as you built up armor. Toskk's calculator seemed to disagree, so I have checked the math. It looks like toskk is correct.

We had 151.2 bonus armor (i.e. not multiplied by bear form and SoTF, only Thick Hide and austere earthseige) as giving 1%additional TTL. This is roughly accurate when you have very little armor, but not true when you have normal bear-gear levels of armor.

At 25000 armor, an addition 318 armor is required to give 1% TTL, while at 40K armor, 399 extra armor is required to give 1% TTL. The mistake I made is that the armor calculation is geared to give roughly the same number of *seconds* for each additional N armor, no matter how much armor you have (all else held constant) Not the same %.

Since the DR formula for dodge is designed to scale multiplicatively on TTL (TTL goes up roughly the same percentage for each N of dodge or agility, no matter how much you have stacked), agility and dodge become better than armor per item cost as soon as you have starter blue gear at lvl 80. Defense becomes better at high gear levels reachable now, long before it approaches parity with dodge or agility (I have reached parity between dodge and armor already at lvl 78 with the X11 helm from TBC and the eviscerator's set).

So bonus armor really isn't good to stack once you have full epics, and defender's code, offering of sacrifice etc. become rather boring for druids. Even on starter gear, we'd prefer agility, slightly prefer dodge, and are not that much happier with armor than defense.

If anything this is good, as it means that our best bear gear can still do acceptable dps in cat form for a hybrid build.

But it very much changes things I've said in the past about bonus armor still being a good stat post 3.0.8. It isn't much better than defense once you have pretty good gear, and will become worse than defense before defense reaches parity with dodge, let alone agility.

 

angral

When you say 'per item cost' I assume you are refering to 14 points of armour vs 1 point of agility or 1 point of dodge rating?

 

kalbear

It really depends on what things you're facing, I'd imagine. Armor's value increases significantly compared to the size of the attacks. Avoidance is essentially linear with respect to the size of the attacks.

That being said, the items with bonus armor also tend to have equal amounts of avoidance compared to the DPS items in question, so it's often a matter of trading armor for AP, not avoidance.

 

mesullivan

angral: yes, when I say per item cost, i mean to compare the value of 14 armor to 1 agility/defense/dodge.

Something like defender's code will be superior to some random 187 blue, even if the blue is perfectly itemized. We have no stat differences severe enough to offset that kind of budge difference anymore. But if there's a E213 trinket with just agi/stam/dodge, it will probably be superior mitigation.

kalbear: yeah, for a max mitigation set, bonus armor is still a worthwhile stat, but it has roughly the same value as defense. That said, I am starting to think that I need to gear more for threat/dps, there does not seem to be huge mitigation pressure on tanks in this expansion so far, and our dps is no longer trivial. I expect to be worth 1/2 a dpser or more as a tank now for any fight where 100% max mitigation isn't a requirement. Giving up the weaker mitigation stats like armor or def in favor of good threat stats (str/exp/hit/AP) might not be a bad tradeoff for most fights, especially as a hybrid.

 

Habba

I've never used the Growl glyph. Yes it has been annoying at times but, I don't get many resisted taunts. I'm currently running about 138 hit rating in my mitigation get up. I adjust for more on trash/bosses where threat is more of a concern than survival.

Sarth has not been kind to me so I haven't switched to the 7.5 gloves yet and my current gloves give a chunk of hit (20).

Since armory isn't being kind I really can't take a look at your gear (you showed up without any equipped) to see where you could pick up more hit as yours seems quite low.

 

jminhas

Can someone give me the math which shows the viability of using Darkmoon Card: Greatness (+90 Agi)
for feral tanking? I haven't been able to find it anywhere, and have been wondering for a while
if it is actually the best in slot tanking trink atm.

 

Boevis

90 * 1.1 * 1.02 * 1.06 = 107 Agi. People average the proc at another 90, so another 107 after kings/sotf/imotw = 214 Total average agi
2 Armor per agi:
214 * 2 = 428 Armor

35.03 agi per dodge:
214 / 35.03 = 6.11%

70.07 agi per crit:
214 / 70.07 = 3.05%

That makes it 3rd best for Armor, 1st for Dodge, and 1st for crit (higher SD uptime) of the trinkets. I honestly can't compare it to the [Essence of Gossamer] because of some fights needing more HP than others, but it's still going to be one of my two trinkets until I see Ulduar upgrades no matter what, possibly upgrade it when I get both Hearts, but I don't really like the General's.

 

brokentuzk

Where are you getting 650 Health? According to Rare Beast thread in Feral Druid Numbers 1 Stam=15.9 Health which would mean 15.9*111=1765 Health.

 

Boevis

The post he was replying to was commenting about old world 45/50 stam trinkets. 650 was clearly an understatement even for a 45 stam trinket, his point remains that you're not going to choose [Commander's Badge] over [Defender's Code]. Though I will admit to using [Commendation of Kael'thas] for Sarth+3D tanking.

 

nightcrowler

The OP didn't take into accout parry gibbs & expertise. Parry gibbs are one of the best sources of wipes (at least in my expirience).

 

kalbear

They were when attacks came in actually large blows relative to your health. The only boss that hits remotely hard and parry-hastes right now is Sartharion, and he's not exactly what you'd call a killer.

Crushing blows being removed pretty much destroyed the concept of parry gibbing, I think. It's a shame, because that forced tanks to gear for some threat mechanics. And it's possible that this won't be the case in the future. But that's certainly the case now.

 

nightcrowler

Malygos and KT cann parry gibbs and actually I can say that I've easy tanked both in dps gear so if parry gibbs / expertise doesn't count because they are not "killers" also avoidance doesn't count because healers never go oom and stamina doesn't count after surv cap.

 

Allev

Another contributing factor to the lowered deadliness of parry gibbing is that we get a ton more expertise than we did in TBC-- both with gear and talents. So the deadly parry killers-- getting multiple parries on consecutive swings, so more than one boss attack is hasted-- is much, much less likely to happen.

 

dakalro

One small clarification, all taunts have been on the melee hit table since around Sunwell in TBC, that is 8% hit (or 9%, whichever is the special hit cap for melee, no 1% chance to miss). TBC it was 17% chance to miss, 16% max hit. At the moment there is 17% hit cap for spells without any 1% miss sill in effect.

 

Observer

Is there a thread discussing this topic for 3.1, since it's changed significantly? It seems like it should have been discussed somewhere, but I'm not finding one.

 

charriu

If you are looking for the SD math, you really want to read the 3.1 thread.

 

Navaram

Anyone using Formula: Enchant Weapon - Blood Draining - Item - World of Warcraft on live? Curently have moongose on tanking weapon, but on bosses in Ulduar im pretty often under 35% health(like thorim hard mode) and 2k heal after US can save me.

 

Chojee

I've been playing around with Blood Draining a bit, and it seems to be a decent choice when stacking stam. For me, it seems to proc at around 3-4 stacks, and has the potential to crit. A potentially interesting quirk is that the buff remains even if you swap to another weapon.