Elitist Jerks Restoration Itemization

 12/22/08, 12:46 PM #151 Akomos Von Kaiser     Blackforge Tauren Druid   Ravencrest Overheal ticks, even at 100% overheal, absolutely can proc Replenish. Rejuv yourself next time you're checking your mail or whatever and see.
 12/22/08, 1:16 PM #152 nau Glass Joe   Shaker Tauren Druid   Frostmane I posted about the Headpiece of Reconciliation stat issue and it looks like they are looking at it. Heres hoping This looks promising: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Headpiece of Reconciliation - Stats change Too bad its hideous
 12/22/08, 1:55 PM #153 Playered Soda Popinski     Maifax Tauren Druid   Twisting Nether (EU) Thanks, the best comparison is to our T7 helm though as it is an exact replica beyond MP5->Haste. All gear looks hideous if it is not Tier gear though.. one of the benefits of forms I guess
 12/23/08, 8:15 AM #154 puebloune Glass Joe   Puebloune Tauren Druid   Nathrezim Considering stamina/intellect/spell power are common to every piece of gear we will use. Considering I am using all my spells and not spamming regrowth or using only some kind of HoT. For extra stats I will use spirit/haste/MP5 or crit. Spirit is first because we get mana regen and healing power from it. Not mentionning your aura also benefits from it. Haste second because I think its a great stat for us and sadly not being considered enough. It ease/fasten your HoT rotation and at one point will even allow us to remove points from GoTE talents. MP5 or crit are last because mana regen is barely an issue already and that crit can't be a reliable stats. Even tho you're stacking crit in order to use regrowth, I think you're missing the points of being a resto druid.
 12/23/08, 12:02 PM #155 Albedo Glass Joe     Piasola Night Elf Druid   Kargath Has anyone tried dreamstate resto yet? A sample build might be something like this- Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft I believe this is still a viable way for druids to heal, either as a tank healer in 25s or whatever in 10s or 5s. Assuming my given build is used, the following changes might be considered in itemization. 1-Intel now equals more mp5 (10 intel to 1 mp5) and spellpower (12 intel to 1 spellpower). 2-remove the +heals from the spirit equation 3-3% haste from talents (only 1.1k haste to go!) 4-3% crit from talents 5-0.5 secs every crit (And you still have improved regrowth!) With this, our itemization looks more like a moonkin's. spellpower>int>haste>crit>mp5>spirit Just covering all our bases.
 12/23/08, 12:36 PM #156 Fallenangel Don Flamenco   Treesa Tauren Druid   Chromaggus (EU) No, this is not a viable build. ToL gives way more mp5 than dreamstate, and imp ToL gives more SP than lunar grace. The rest is just trading off the great deep resto talents for useless balance ones.
12/23/08, 12:48 PM   #157
puebloune
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Nathrezim
 Originally Posted by Fallenangel No, this is not a viable build. ToL gives way more mp5 than dreamstate, and imp ToL gives more SP than lunar grace. The rest is just trading off the great deep resto talents for useless balance ones.
I must agree with Fallenangel here. I dont think going deeper in the balance tree is beneficial for us.

Altho, don't you guys have the feeling we have to waste points in the resto tree?

This is my so-called "basic" specc : WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Druid -> Talent Calculator

I have 4 points left, and soon enough I'll have more. With the more haste I am getting, the closer I am to remove points from the GoTEM talents.

Living seed healed for less then 1% when I specced with it. Replenish is meh at best, I would have to use rejuvenation a lot in order to make it worthwhile and this way I would be losing too much of my healing efficiency. Imp tranquility is fun, but mostly usefull in 5 men while anything related to HT is not worth it imo.

Too bad there is nothing worth it in the balance tree either. Maybe 1 point in Brambles and 3 points in celestial focus??

12/23/08, 12:57 PM   #158
Playered
Soda Popinski

Tauren Druid

Twisting Nether (EU)
 Originally Posted by Albedo Has anyone tried dreamstate resto yet? A sample build might be something like this- Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft I believe this is still a viable way for druids to heal, either as a tank healer in 25s or whatever in 10s or 5s. ..Blabla.. With this, our itemization looks more like a moonkin's. spellpower>int>haste>crit>mp5>spirit Just covering all our bases.
I don't know what to say except to roll a Paladin alt?

You cripple your HoTs by 20% GCD/Scaling Power/Cost.
You destroy multiple Spirit enhancements aswell as neutering your Innervate (even Glyphed it will not give you 100%).
You lose 6% healing (will effect your 5/10mans more significantly than 25mans assuming you have a smart Resto Druid or a Protadin).
You don't have Wild Growth (which is still a very efficient heal CD or no CD).

The gains of this 'spec'? 12% Int->SP, 10% Int->MP5 and 3% Haste (oh and 3/3 Brambles & 2/2 Nature's Reach).
Pretty much everything else can be attained in a normal spec (you can get the 3% haste if you wish here too) and you do not miss out on much.

You mention skipping Spirit in favor of SP/Int despite the fact if you look at gear without Spirit you gain either Haste, Crit or MP5 in almost all cases - you do not get that budget spent on Int or more SP (in any notable amount).
The only way to drop Spirit for SP or Int is by gemming and in no cases should you have been putting pure Spirit gems in sockets anyway.

Dropping Imp ToL/LS will result in nullifying your Lunar Guidance gains and the loss of LS and a chunk of your Spirit from gear will (almost/completly) nullify your gains from Dreamstate.
Using any spell except HT/Nourish will result in further devestation due to their additional costs.

I wish you luck on your incredibly inferior and poorly thought out spec/gear choices and hope you enjoy testing it on very easy content to give you mediocre results.

Last edited by Playered : 12/23/08 at 1:16 PM. Reason: forgot to include the other 2/3 Brambles and 2/2 NR.

12/23/08, 12:58 PM   #159
Arentios
Wisdom as dump stat

Tauren Druid

 Originally Posted by Albedo Has anyone tried dreamstate resto yet? A sample build might be something like this- Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft I believe this is still a viable way for druids to heal, either as a tank healer in 25s or whatever in 10s or 5s. Assuming my given build is used, the following changes might be considered in itemization. 1-Intel now equals more mp5 (10 intel to 1 mp5) and spellpower (12 intel to 1 spellpower). 2-remove the +heals from the spirit equation 3-3% haste from talents (only 1.1k haste to go!) 4-3% crit from talents 5-0.5 secs every crit (And you still have improved regrowth!) With this, our itemization looks more like a moonkin's. spellpower>int>haste>crit>mp5>spirit Just covering all our bases.
You seem to really be overlooking what talents tree druids can already get without much difficulty, and underestimating Tree of Life.

Trees get 6.66 spirit to the spellpower, and factoring in Living Spirit, it comes out to 5.797, making it better lunar guidance on the spellpower front (you have guidance wrong, it's 8.33 int to the spellpower).

Tree druids can already get 3% crit and 0.5s off every crit without any significant sacrifices.

It's fully possible to get 3% haste in a spec that doesn't get Natural Perfection. You don't get 3% crit and 3% haste to be sure, but neither is of tremendous value overall.

You're also really forgetting the mana saving of Tree of Life's -20% cost to HoTs. Assuming you cast say, 3 rejuvs every 12 seconds, you're already generating more effective mana regen than Dreamstate will give you (161 mp5 by my napkin math), before you cast a single extra spell in those 9 remaining seconds.

12/23/08, 1:31 PM   #160
Albedo
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

<LWW>
Kargath
 Originally Posted by Fallenangel No, this is not a viable build. ToL gives way more mp5 than dreamstate, and imp ToL gives more SP than lunar grace. The rest is just trading off the great deep resto talents for useless balance ones.
If you are stacking int>spirit, it should come out to roughly the same +spells, if not more so. I have roughly 125 less intel than spirit, and that's with a couple of +16 spirit gems in my gear (which will be swapped out for +spell after reading this thread ) It has even been said in here that int is weighted more than spirit in traditional treebe forms. All dreamstate does is make spirit just like it is for most other classes.

Perhaps I should explain the concept of dreamstate in more detail.

With the end of spamming different ranks of healing touch (the heart and soul of dreamstate), the build was pretty much dead. However, I believe with Nourish, Regrowth, and Healing Touch, there are still enough options to continue the build, especially with the emphasis on haste this latest expansion. Obviously there are a lot of points wasted (5 to be exact) just to get down to dreamstate, and in the end we end up sacrificing almost all of our great hot-based talents. Fortunately for all of us, dreamstate isn't about hots. It's about spaming touch heals. Granted, now that ToL can healing touch, why would we even consider casting out of our elemental tree (short of seeing a lock in pvp)?

First off, let's look at improved regrowth combined with nature's grace. The prospect of a spell critting half of the time makes me all giddy inside, but more importantly, besides healing for more with that crit, we get a half a second off of our next cast. This means a >1 sec nourish, a >1.5 second regrowth, and a 2 sec healing touch. We know this from our current builds. All that dreamstate does is take it a step further. An earlier post considered the prospect of a 25% crit rating combined with regrowth. Dreamstate is meant to realize that scenario. More crit=faster casts+more heals. Eat your heart out palidins!

Of coarse other classes will be better at touch healing than druids, that's what they were designed to do. So why should we get obscure gear for a wierd build that will most likely be sub-par to other healers?

1-Dual specs are on the horizon!
For all of the crit chickens of the world, this build would require less item-swapping. Just uhm...ignore all that hit on your gear...

2-We can now single-target heal!
Patchwork got you down? Regrowth, regrowth, nourish, HT...

3-It's different.
Variety is the spice of life.

Until we see some numbers on how this build might actually preform, it may be best to consider it a novelty build. However, you cannot expect to heal the same way with a different build.

 12/23/08, 2:01 PM #161 Arentios Wisdom as dump stat     Arentios Tauren Druid   Lightning's Blade You can do everything you just listed with a 14/0/57 (or 18/0/53) spec. You really seem to be missing what a tree druid can and cannot get. The only thing you're gaining is Dreamstate, while sacrificing Wild Growth, Tree of Life Form, and Gift of the Earth Mother. A dreamstate build doesn't single target heal any better than a full resto build (and actually does it worse due to not having -20% to the cost of Regrowth)
12/23/08, 5:52 PM   #162
Norfair
Piston Honda

Night Elf Druid

Grim Batol (EU)
 Originally Posted by Arentios You can do everything you just listed with a 14/0/57 (or 18/0/53) spec. You really seem to be missing what a tree druid can and cannot get. The only thing you're gaining is Dreamstate, while sacrificing Wild Growth, Tree of Life Form, and Gift of the Earth Mother. A dreamstate build doesn't single target heal any better than a full resto build (and actually does it worse due to not having -20% to the cost of Regrowth)
Not to mention Living Spirit, which is a similar talent to Dreamstate. Why go through so much trouble to get Dreamstate but not picking up the resto version in the process?

 12/23/08, 7:52 PM #163 Elorael Glass Joe     Elorael Night Elf Druid   Caelestrasz I'm still wondering about your 1.3 value used to determin the needed haste to get a 1.0s GCD. * GotEM before haste: 1.5s * 0.8 = 1.2s - simple but apparently not the way its done. * GotEM after haste: (This is a backwards math thing from what you normally see so I'm talking it up, instead of just math'ing it up. Aim - 1.0 casting speed. Therefore solve for the value required to mean that a 20% reduction in GCD is equal to 1.0 GCD after Haste before GotEM = 1.0 * ( 1 / 0.8 ) = 1.25s The casting speed that Haste must bring you to is 1.25s If we take a base of 100 casts at 1.5s, then in the same time at 1.25 speed we can cast 120 times. 120 / 100 = 120% increase in casting time. Therefore we require 20% haste to bring us to a 1.25 casting speed. 32.79 haste rating * 20 percentage points = 656 (655.8 rounded up) So for a druid with GotEM 5/5 you require 656 haste to hit 1.0s GCD dead on. And for those looking at the 1.3 then applying GotEM: 1.3s * 0.8 = 1.04 not 1.0 The interesting thing is: It doesn't matter if GotEM is applied before or after. If it's applied before, you have a 1.2s cast to reduce with haste, that means you need to get 20% haste. If its applied after, you have to get to a 1.25s cast speed, that means you need to get 20% haste. I welcome any corrections to this as I'd prefer to be right then louder, but I don't see the math tables at the front of this being correct. And its causing issues for us healers over at PlusHeal.com.
 12/23/08, 9:00 PM #164 uliko Piston Honda   Feidan Night Elf Druid   Kor'gall (EU) http://elitistjerks.com/1020428-post143.html Why hit food is bad "You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."
 12/23/08, 9:28 PM #165 Elorael Glass Joe     Elorael Night Elf Druid   Caelestrasz Thankyou for linking the posts that I have an issue with. Neither post actually explains the 1.3s base cast after Haste. http://elitistjerks.com/990017-post110.html solves for h with an assumed 1.3 base cast. My issue is that you don't explain how you get the 1.3 and from my calculations, your value should be 1.25 not 1.3. http://elitistjerks.com/958293-post638.html relies on the calculations done in the post above. http://elitistjerks.com/958293-post638.html doesn't even mention the 1.3s base. I'm looking for the justifcation of the statement in http://elitistjerks.com/1003153-post50.html that says the base GCD you need to get to is 1.3s. If GotEM removes 20% of the current GCD and your aim is to get a 1.0 GCD, then $1.3 * 0.8= 1.04$ which is not a 1.0s GCD If you can explain to me how the above line (and only the above line) is incorrect then maybe linking a previous post is valid, but I actually read each of those posts in detail. If $1.25 * 0.8= 1.00$ then the base cast GCD required is 1.25 so: $\frac{1.5}{h*1.05*1.03}=1.3$ should be: $\frac{1.5}{h*1.05*1.03}=1.25$ I'm trying to ask you to justify why the formula you posted = 1.3 instead of = 1.25. In mathematics if you start from a flawed premise then the calculations are wrong. EDIT: To clarify, I'm not trying to solve for h, its a pretty picture that you have linked as justification. My post was about the haste value required for a druid with GotEM when no other haste modifiers from other classes or talents were applied. Ultimately my post was describing: $\frac{1.5}{h}=\frac{1.0}{1.0 - 0.2}$ where h is the required haste that a Restoration Druid with GotEM requires to get the GCD without outside help. Last edited by Elorael : 12/23/08 at 9:50 PM.

 Elitist Jerks Restoration Itemization