Restoration Itemization - Page 11

Paininabox · 01/20/09, 2:39 AM

Originally Posted by Rijndael

I don't understand how you can say 1 MP5 should be the value of 3 Spi, and then value MP5 at 0.2 and Spi at 0.15 in the same breath. Druid healing gear tends to look like this: Sta, Int, Spi, Spellpower, [auxiliary stat]. The Auxiliary stat tends to be haste, crit or MP5. It is very easy to reach the haste softcap with a few pieces of best in slot gear -- beyond that point haste isn't very useful for many druid healing assignments. Crit really only helps in tank spamming situations (like if you heal one target on patchwerk), otherwise it is fairly useless I think (outside of tank spamming, the direct portion of regrowth + nourish account for maybe 5% of my healing).

This leaves MP5 which I think is the best auxiliary stat to have (but only if the gear also has spirit). MP5 works in situations where you actually need the mana -- where things have either gone wrong or you dropped a healer in favor of dps, and so have to spam constantly. In these situations where a healer is stressed MP5 is significantly stronger than spirit, which is our main stat, and certainly stronger than any auxiliary stat. As such I strongly value pieces like Sympathy robe from Sapphiron, or Sash of Solitude from Patchwerk.

I wrote up a mathematical analysis article a while back on how to relate int, spirit, and mp5 in terms of regen. Playered is right that 1 mp5 ~ 3 spi. You can find the article here : Mana Regeneration Analysis.doc

emc · 01/21/09, 1:26 PM

First time posting, long time reading - Giansm did a wonderful job of capturing the best of the best gear available for restoration druids and I was hoping to find the same thing in this thread. Norfair started it off on the right track as well..

Has Norfair, Giansm, anyone from EJ, or Ensidia provided an update on the best in slot gear in the game now?

Including gear (head to toe), including polearms too, elixirs, flasks, food, spirit #s, int #s, mp5 #s, etc etc.

Naxx is on farm, Maly is on farm, OS3D is down; now it's time to prepare for Ulduar. Any help to make this happen is greatly appreciated.

Nitz · 01/21/09, 2:36 PM

Is [Headpiece of Reconciliation] fixed with this new patch ?

• Playered · 01/21/09, 2:44 PM

Originally Posted by Nitz

Is [Headpiece of Reconciliation] fixed with this new patch ?

No it is not, I'm guessing we should expect it to be changed for 3.1 (where it should actually matter) and not before.

bandophahita · 01/27/09, 11:20 AM

In terms of longevity the 'absolute' weighting for MP5, Int, Spi should be something like:
MP5 = 1
Int = 0.57~ (0.5-0.6)
Spi = 0.33~ (0.3-0.4)
Keep in mind that there is a balance between Int and Spi which is best to try and keep to in order to get the most out of both stats which is why I had a specific value of Spi to aim for in my gear that deviated me from the true values.

I've been desperately trying to 'catch-up' in terms of reading about min/maxing druids and healing in general before asking this, and if I've missed a post this is already mentioned, I apologize in advance.

I've always thought that spirit was far superior to mp5 for druids. Partially based on uninformed opinions from other players, and partially because it 'seemed' to work better for me.

After reading Paininabox's paper on spirit vs int vs mp5 calculations, I see this can depend on the current level of stats, etc. Because I use Pawn, I still strive for that magic value to weight each stat for the best healing I can dish out.

My question is this; does the weighting of spirit at ~.33 take into account the plus healing bonus from imp ToL? I always assumed you can't measure spirit simply on the merit of it's regen alone. But i've never known how to calculate the added benefit of healing to the pawn scale. (I blame my impatience with math equations)

• Playered · 01/27/09, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by bandophahita

I've been desperately trying to 'catch-up' in terms of reading about min/maxing druids and healing in general before asking this, and if I've missed a post this is already mentioned, I apologize in advance.

I've always thought that spirit was far superior to mp5 for druids. Partially based on uninformed opinions from other players, and partially because it 'seemed' to work better for me.

After reading Paininabox's paper on spirit vs int vs mp5 calculations, I see this can depend on the current level of stats, etc. Because I use Pawn, I still strive for that magic value to weight each stat for the best healing I can dish out.

My question is this; does the weighting of spirit at ~.33 take into account the plus healing bonus from imp ToL? I always assumed you can't measure spirit simply on the merit of it's regen alone. But i've never known how to calculate the added benefit of healing to the pawn scale. (I blame my impatience with math equations)

You need a certain amount of Spirit for Innervate which is one reason why MP5 cannot compete until a certain point, you also have FSR regeneration which depending on the fight and your playstyle ends up favouring Spirit (and to a lesser degree Int) further.

Spirit, MP5 and Int all change in value slightly depending on your current gear but honestly there is nothing that significant unless you suddenly go from 1000 Spirit 900 Int to 1000 Spirit 1400 Int. Considering you will generally gear up and keep a relative balance between the stats (ie +10% on both Spirit and Int) the weights don't really change much so for the most part you can assume a sembalance of stability between them.

Spirit at .33~ is ignoring anything beyond mana return, it is near impossible to compare throughput to longevity in a meaningful way.
For example in that case where 1/.57/.33 were the values for those stats, if SP = 5 then Spirit would end up being around .55~ (last time I checked, going on memory). The problem comes from SP, is SP really worth 5? it could be 10 or 15 and in those cases Spirit becomes superior to Int and even could end up beating MP5 on a 1:1 basis.
You are right in saying you cannot just ignore half of what a stat gives you but that case was clearly labeled as "In terms of longevity" as the second half of the stat is depending on your valuation of something else, of which there is no clear answer.

bandophahita · 01/27/09, 4:36 PM

You are right in saying you cannot just ignore half of what a stat gives you but that case was clearly labeled as "In terms of longevity" as the second half of the stat is depending on your valuation of something else, of which there is no clear answer.

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who found this to be true.

Do you suppose it could be calculated based on gear in a spreadsheet similar to the hunter dps worksheet?
Would the effort of such calculation be worth it?

Ultimately I want to plug values into Pawn to give quick itemization values, even if those number have to be adjusted periodically. But if that level of min/maxing isn't going to make any meaningful difference in terms of healing output then I won't bother.

Because I'm not big number cruncher, I always second my (and others) pawn scales.

• Playered · 01/27/09, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by bandophahita

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who found this to be true.

Do you suppose it could be calculated based on gear in a spreadsheet similar to the hunter dps worksheet?
Would the effort of such calculation be worth it?

Before we had the option of using downranking in order to give us some means of comparison, right now it's like comparing effective health (avoidance and stamina) to threat for tanking.

Paininabox · 01/27/09, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by bandophahita

I've been desperately trying to 'catch-up' in terms of reading about min/maxing druids and healing in general before asking this, and if I've missed a post this is already mentioned, I apologize in advance.

I've always thought that spirit was far superior to mp5 for druids. Partially based on uninformed opinions from other players, and partially because it 'seemed' to work better for me.

After reading Paininabox's paper on spirit vs int vs mp5 calculations, I see this can depend on the current level of stats, etc. Because I use Pawn, I still strive for that magic value to weight each stat for the best healing I can dish out.

My question is this; does the weighting of spirit at ~.33 take into account the plus healing bonus from imp ToL? I always assumed you can't measure spirit simply on the merit of it's regen alone. But i've never known how to calculate the added benefit of healing to the pawn scale. (I blame my impatience with math equations)

Yes, there is no convenient or meaningful mathematical way to figure in IToL into spirit's regen capability. My best advice is that if you find two items close in value on the mana regen scale, then pick the one with higher spirit. However, also keep in mind that spirit is worth only 15% of one point of SP, so the benefit is small enough to make it somewhat negligible, in my opinion.

druicifer · 01/27/09, 9:14 PM

Originally Posted by Playered

Before we had the option of using downranking in order to give us some means of comparison, right now it's like comparing effective health (avoidance and stamina) to threat for tanking.

Effective health is mitigation and stamina

druicifer · 01/27/09, 9:19 PM

Originally Posted by bandophahita

I've been desperately trying to 'catch-up' in terms of reading about min/maxing druids and healing in general before asking this, and if I've missed a post this is already mentioned, I apologize in advance.

I've always thought that spirit was far superior to mp5 for druids. Partially based on uninformed opinions from other players, and partially because it 'seemed' to work better for me.

After reading Paininabox's paper on spirit vs int vs mp5 calculations, I see this can depend on the current level of stats, etc. Because I use Pawn, I still strive for that magic value to weight each stat for the best healing I can dish out.

My question is this; does the weighting of spirit at ~.33 take into account the plus healing bonus from imp ToL? I always assumed you can't measure spirit simply on the merit of it's regen alone. But i've never known how to calculate the added benefit of healing to the pawn scale. (I blame my impatience with math equations)

I'm not sure of the exact values of spirit per mp5 with intensity talent, but its pretty close to 2.5 spirit = 1mp5.

2.5 spirit = 1mp5 is equal in terms of itemization too. So only AFTER you're able to restore your entire mana bar with spirit, does mp5 become equal. This is also assuming you have ~ 1000 int and ~ 1100 + spirit raid buffed.

When comparing two pieces of gear, you can easily calculate the extra SP you get from the spirit on it. After you've done that, add it on to the existing SP (mentally) on the item, and forget about IToL. Then you can do the work of deducing which piece is superior, based on SP and regen. I think that in the very near future, we'll be seeing spirit outscale mp5 for resto druids, in regen and because of IToL.

Arkonos · 01/28/09, 7:27 PM

First of all: Thank you all
I started raiding and doing heros with WotLK and you're helping me a lot.
So, since I'm quite new my questions are probably newbish too, srr about that

1.To provide a stat ranking (for Pawn eg) can't we just equipp a druid with all BiS's and look at his stats?
this way we wouldn't have the optimal stats, but the best accessible.
I doubt this works because if it would, you guys would already have done that.

2.I used Paininabox's Resto Spreadsheet v1.21L to create a stat weight but thats split into regen and healing power
I would go for HP untill I go oom and then go back to regen etc
but if I'm going oom depends on my role and on the other healers, so that isn't a very good option
is there a better way to wight between regen and HP?

I'm nax10/25, badgeds and 2-3 hero pieces equipped and will only do 10nax for the next weeks so it's not really important to have those values for me, I'm just interested in numbers and calculations.

While we don't have a way to feed Pawn with exact numbers, I recommend the Addon BonusScanner
(you have to be in Tree form to have the addon calculate exactly)
thanks for spending time reading my thoughts

Ps: If someone is bored and could tell me via pm witch stat I'm lacking most at the time (int I assume), I'd be very grateful.

Devinestorm · 01/28/09, 11:04 PM

Ok, i hope this post will not be deleted or removed or that i receive a warning for posting an impropper topic in the incorrect thread!!!

My purpose here is to get some feedback on whether im a crazy druid, with silly ideas that is not in touch with the plannet! I read about my class daily, i leveled my druid as resto from level 17 - 80 and ive healed in BT fighting Illidan and now in Wrath i heal in Nazzramas, EoE, OS and Archie in 10 and 25 raids. I think i know what im talking about but after looking at Resto druids on my server i think either everyone is wrong or im on funny pills!!!

PLEASE HELP ME!!!

Ok to the bones of it and this is about Gems, Enchants and Gear build; not tallents / glyphs etc and this is not poised to say this person is better than you. Its about clarity on my thinking as a resto druid as im begining to doubt myself. And this isnt about who is best its about who is right with gems and gear choices...

Crazy Resto Druid one - The World of Warcraft Armory - Vitality Enchants, MP5 gems, NP5 specif gear with no spirit and A Critical Strike Gem???? After talking with many resto druids from my server its sufggested that i dont know anything about my class... I could list 5 other people here with simmilar builds but i think tYavanna is a good example and this is in no way meant to insult you yananna so i hope you dont mind me picking you out; if you ever read this ofc

Crazy Resto Druid - Me - The World of Warcraft Armory - I think i have a very nice gear set, welkl balanced, heavily spirit based yet several people from other top raiding guilds suggest that my build is wong? (If you cant see my 2nd ring its the [Loop of the Kirin Tor])

Finally, my intention is to obtain [Torch of Holy Fire] or [The Impossible Dream] for main hand and the t7.5 for my head and then (if i get lucky enough) to get [Unravelling Strands of Sanity]. Then thats it, i see that my gear is complete with the current gear available.

(When i say build i refer to gear choices if item spots...)

Last issue is the [Life-Binder's Locket] I think this sucks for a rest druid and i would say that the neck that i have equiped is far better yet again i see many resto druids with this?

And when i say "I feel like im taking crazy pills" if you have watched Zoolander then thats how i feel.

Comments please and please give me some help!

(When i read this i feel very lucky indeed that i have the gear i have and i have the chance to improve it further so please dont interpret this in any other way that i intended when i wrote this; i need clarity on my thinking as a resto druid and i seek your advise please)

Lightflower · 01/28/09, 11:39 PM

Firstly, let me say that you both are geared well enough to be fine at healing any of the current content. Both of you seem to have foregone some +SP for regen stats (whether it is spirit or MP5) and this perhaps is not the best thing since running OOM really isn't happening in current content.

With that in mind, that is why many Druids like the Life Binder's Locket since, socketed correctly, it is the highest +SP neck piece available.

So my advice is to find the highest +SP item and look at equipping as many of those as possible while ensuring that your Innervate always fills your mana bar, you are at or above the haste soft cap and you get above 450 MP5 while casting when fully raid buffed. So you may want to look at some of the higher +SP rings and the Spaulders of Catatonia - your weapon choices are fine, I'm after the Torch myself but it never drops

Devinestorm · 01/29/09, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Lightflower

Firstly, let me say that you both are geared well enough to be fine at healing any of the current content. Both of you seem to have foregone some +SP for regen stats (whether it is spirit or MP5) and this perhaps is not the best thing since running OOM really isn't happening in current content.

With that in mind, that is why many Druids like the Life Binder's Locket since, socketed correctly, it is the highest +SP neck piece available.

So my advice is to find the highest +SP item and look at equipping as many of those as possible while ensuring that your Innervate always fills your mana bar, you are at or above the haste soft cap and you get above 450 MP5 while casting when fully raid buffed. So you may want to look at some of the higher +SP rings and the Spaulders of Catatonia - your weapon choices are fine, I'm after the Torch myself but it never drops

A few things then.

- Haste soft cap is 200 i beleive?
- Should i regem my blue spirit gems for Spellpower?
- Raid Buffed im just over 660 MP5 and 1600 while not casting (trinket procs ontop ofc)
- I never go OOM

• Playered · 01/29/09, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by Devinestorm

A few things then.

- Haste soft cap is 200 i beleive?
- Should i regem my blue spirit gems for Spellpower?
- Raid Buffed im just over 660 MP5 and 1600 while not casting (trinket procs ontop ofc)
- I never go OOM

Never socket a 16 Spirit gem (go Purified if you must) and you did a mistake picking the Greatness (Spirit, not Int) trinket but there is not much you can do about that.

The necks you have a choice of either [Life-Binder's Locket] or [Necklace of the Glittering Chamber] where the former is the highest SP neck and also gives you 22 more Intellect which goes a long way to covering up the loss of 38 Spirit and combine that with the dirty MP5 and it ends up a straight up superior item.

There is nothing really 'wrong' with your spec either, you might want to change your bracers to the Instructor ones.
As to T7.5 helm I wouldn't bother with it and would suggest [Cowl of Vanity] or [Hood of Rationality] if no cloth user wants, obviously aim for [Headpiece of Reconciliation] when it drops but the other two are the same or better if no cloth user needs.

Norfair · 01/29/09, 8:21 AM

Originally Posted by Playered

Never socket a 16 Spirit gem (go Purified if you must) and you did a mistake picking the Greatness (Spirit, not Int) trinket but there is not much you can do about that.

The necks you have a choice of either [Life-Binder's Locket] or [Necklace of the Glittering Chamber] where the former is the highest SP neck and also gives you 22 more Intellect which goes a long way to covering up the loss of 38 Spirit and combine that with the dirty MP5 and it ends up a straight up superior item.

There is nothing really 'wrong' with your spec either, you might want to change your bracers to the Instructor ones.
As to T7.5 helm I wouldn't bother with it and would suggest [Cowl of Vanity] or [Hood of Rationality] if no cloth user wants, obviously aim for [Headpiece of Reconciliation] when it drops but the other two are the same or better if no cloth user needs.

Why not bother with T7.5? I find it a pretty good itemized helm tbh. It's same as the Hood of Rationality, but instead of haste (which you can easily get enough of) you get a nice bunch of mp5. It's all personal preference of course, but I wouldn't say it's a bad helm. On top of it you can get the 4-set bonus which is a nice plus (and in the future it will be easier to maintain 2-set bonus).

Also, as for maces, the [Ice Spire Scepter] is a nice one to pick up, it's the same as the Impossible Dream but has haste instead of crit and is a lot easier to get as well, since it drops in 10-man Malygos.

Pownstaronfizz · 01/29/09, 10:12 AM

deleted, thought the post would look better.

Devinestorm · 01/29/09, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Pownstaronfizz

It's a bit off-topic, but it's always nice to see everyone's preferences:

[Runed Dragon's Eye] or [Sparkling Dragon's Eye]

Enchants:

04:10:03 called in wowhead_item::start:324 Item not found!

vs. [Scroll of Enchant Bracers - Major Spirit] vs. [Scroll of Enchant Bracers - Greater Stats]
[Formula: Enchant Chest - Powerful Stats] vs. [Scroll of Enchant Chest - Greater Mana Restoration] vs. [Enchant Chest - Major Spirit]
[Scroll of Enchant Cloak - Wisdom] vs. [Formula: Enchant Cloak - Greater Speed]
[Scroll of Enchant Weapon - Mighty Spellpower] vs. [Scroll of Enchant Weapon - Exceptional Spirit]
[Scroll of Enchant Boots - Greater Spirit] vs. [Scroll of Enchant Boots - Greater Vitality]

Gear:
Haste > Crit or Crit > Haste?
How much are you willing to sacrifice for Spirit on a item?

Cloak -- >[Scroll of Enchant Cloak - Wisdom] This is my preference as 23 hast is on other gear and 10 sopirit is free effectivly as this is the only back enchant that offers this. The threat reduction means you can drop 1 point out of Subtley and put it in Tranquil spirit; this is my thinking.
Feet ---> Take the 18 spirit imo as its more sueful to a druid than vitality. You can get your MP5 up if needed by getting a ring/back with raw MP5 on it.
Weapon ---> Spell power for me but id say it depends on the quality of your gear and how much spirit you already have, if you are short then cap spirit otherwise stack spell power.
Bracers ---> Spell power
Chest ---> Use to be 15 spirit as the resto must have chest enchant although i would go for 10 styats now as you get 10 spirit, and 10 intel which has more value than just 15 spirit. I personally wouldnt consider any others tbh.

Originally Posted by Playered

Never socket a 16 Spirit gem (go Purified if you must) and you did a mistake picking the Greatness (Spirit, not Int) trinket but there is not much you can do about that.

Ive replaced my 16 spirit gems for purple 9 spell power and 8 spirit gems for the loss of 12 MP5 and 45 regen although i have gained 46 spell power so ill run with this and see how it goes,

I cant imagine why 12 mp5 would make me go OOM so thanks for the feed back and assistance.

One questioned un-answered is WYH do many resto druids gem for MP5 on my server>? Makes no sence to me!!

Zoltair · 01/30/09, 9:11 AM

From a prior conversation on the PvE Resto Healing Thread I posted the following 3 posts regarding the current Haste with GotEM. Ideally they should have been posted in this thread.

http://elitistjerks.com/1079250-post270.html

http://elitistjerks.com/1079687-post272.html

http://elitistjerks.com/1080740-post276.html <- Uliko

BigRiz · 02/04/09, 4:53 PM

I am putting together a spreadsheet of all of the standard tree calculations including haste, healing, Mp5, Innervate and crit, and have one sticking point I have yet to find an answer for.

Is the healing the LB idol grants a fixed amount given an expected untalented duration for Lifebloom, or is it further spread out considering Nature's Splendor and the LB glyph? Meaning, which is true:

0 SP LB tick = 53
No Talent/glyph # ticks = 7
LB Idol healing per tick = 125/7 = 17.85
NS and glyph per tick = 125/10 = 12.5

-or-

NS and glyph per tick = 125/7 per tick regardless of duration

-or-

Is it (not likely) 125 per tick?

Any thoughts or assistance would be great!

Thanks

Ambullance

Paininabox · 02/05/09, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by BigRiz

I am putting together a spreadsheet of all of the standard tree calculations including haste, healing, Mp5, Innervate and crit, and have one sticking point I have yet to find an answer for.

Is the healing the LB idol grants a fixed amount given an expected untalented duration for Lifebloom, or is it further spread out considering Nature's Splendor and the LB glyph? Meaning, which is true:

0 SP LB tick = 53
No Talent/glyph # ticks = 7
LB Idol healing per tick = 125/7 = 17.85
NS and glyph per tick = 125/10 = 12.5

-or-

NS and glyph per tick = 125/7 per tick regardless of duration

-or-

Is it (not likely) 125 per tick?

Any thoughts or assistance would be great!

Thanks

Ambullance

When I made my spreadsheet, I found that the idol just adds that much spell power to the tick, ala:

BASETICK+(Coef)*(SP+IoLM)=53+(0.0952)*(SP+IoLM)

This applies per tick, and is not diminished by talents/glyphs that increase the length of LB.

Feel free to use my spreadsheet (listed in my sig), because I spent about 4k gold speccing and respeccing during beta to ascertain how everything came together.

Paininabox · 02/08/09, 7:33 PM

I just wanted to let everyone know that I have a new version of my spreadsheet out. The link is in my signature. Please let me know about any errors either by e-mail or through PM. Thanks!

EDIT:

UPDATE

After using this sheet on my own guy, I noticed that the MRVD column was being calculated incorrectly. Please be aware of this until I put out a fixed version (probably tomorrow).

jula · 02/09/09, 6:41 AM

I have a druid alt with access to all gear in game. I made this template of what i think is the best PvE gear in game, assuming no professions.
With full buffs its over 2.6k healing power and 450 mp5 while casting.

About the meta - From my experience using the mana restore meta and stacking healing power is superior to using the spell power meta and using regen gems / gear, even when you have to adjust your gemming for it (assuming you not a JCer). I would say the spell damage meta is only superior if you both gear and gem for max spell power already and you don't need the extra regen from the mana restore meta.

If a specific fights requires more regen you can always change trinket to MDF however this is almost never needed.

If anyone has any suggestions on how to improve it further i would be happy to hear. Assume access to all gear in game.

Hellebore · 02/09/09, 10:32 AM

Hi, first post and all so please excuse any glaring errors.

During a recent bank clear out, I came across [Harold's Rejuvenating Broach], and noticed that it adds 88 spell power to revj, which given the amount of healing especially raid healing I use revj for seems to be very powerful indeed.

A bit of testing seems to show that it adds ~42 healing a tick to my revj, which are normally just below the 2k mark raid buffed, with about 2k spell power on my gear.

I think that this is either bugged or over powered so I'm not sure how long it will stay as 88 spell power but it seems to be to be the best in slot idol for raid healing, such as on Sapphiron 25.

WWS link for the first experiment with the idol in 25 man: Wow Web Stats