Elitist Jerks Restoration Itemization

12/23/08, 11:39 PM   #166
uliko
Piston Honda

Night Elf Druid

Kor'gall (EU)
 http://elitistjerks.com/958293-post638.html doesn't even mention the 1.3s base.
Ok, first things first, we want to know how much haste you need to get 1s GCD on spells effected by GotEM. To find that out we need to figure out exactly what GotEM does. So lets actually read that post since you obviously have not. The first thing it does is state that GotEM removes 0.3s from the GCD after haste effects have been applied. Now you obviously do not believe that so how about verifying with the method provided in that post.

 To verify; put any spell that has a GCD in action button 1 on your bars and write /script print((select(2, GetActionCooldown(1)))) just after you cast a spell and it should say what the cooldown for that ability is (which should be the GCD).
So make that macro, bind it to some convenient button and cast thorns or whatever spell you want and press the macro. It should say 1.5/haste in your chat window since that should be the cooldown on that spell (the gcd from casting thorns). Now cast lifebloom and press the macro again and it should be painfully obvious that it's 0.3s lower. Hence the need to only reduce it to 1.3s with haste since GotEM does the rest.

GotEM reduces your current gcd with 20% of the base gcd. In a "mathy" way if that makes more sense: 1.3 - 1.5*0.20 = 1

So stop spewing out your "here's how it should work" math and actually do some tests in game to back up your claims.

Last edited by uliko : 12/23/08 at 11:46 PM.

Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."

 12/23/08, 11:57 PM #167 Glory Von Kaiser   Zeraleen Orc Warrior   Gilneas (EU) never mind
12/24/08, 12:02 AM   #168
Elorael
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

Caelestrasz
So what you're saying is that GotEM removes 0.3s from the 1.5s GCD.

With 0 haste, I fully and wholeheartedly agree with you.

However, the text from GotEM reads:

Reduces the base global cooldown of your Rejuvenation, Lifebloom and Wild Growth spells by 20%.
Gift of the Earthmother - Spell - World of Warcraft

I agree with you completely that:

$1.5 * 0.2=0.3$

However, you have also stated:

 Originally Posted by uliko Most casting time reduction talents are before haste (like naturalist, mages imp. fire/frostbolt and starlight wrath), but for some reason GotEM is not
(rest of quote removed as its the part I have issue with)

It appears I was confused by the logic you where employing. I understood the statement above to indicate that, GotEM is not taking 20% of 1.5s off your cast time, it is taking 20% off the adjusted GCD after haste has lowered the GCD.

The logic of taking off 0.3s because $1.5 * 0.2=0.3$ only applies if the GotEM adjustment is done on the 1.5s base GCD first or ...

From what I can deduce, in order to fit the model you've presented, haste and GotEM interact as such (this was what I needed you to explain for me to get your model):

$x=1.5 - ((1.5*0.2) + \frac{1.5}{h})$ where x is the resulting casting time (or GCD) and h remains our percentage haste.

If this is the model you're presenting to calculate the casting speed based on GotEM's interactions with haste, then I can accept that on the basis that I haven't done accurate empirical testing yet as i haven't been able to get a high enough haste value on my gear to validate or negate either model.

Model A (yours):
$1.0=1.5 - ((1.5*0.2) + \frac{1.5}{h})$

Model B (my assumed model from my reading):

$\frac{1.5}{h}=\frac{1.0}{1.0 - 0.2}$

I was not trying to be contentious or claim a higher knowledge, I simply did not interpret your statements across the various posts to indicate that the GotEM bonus was fixed. I beleived from all you had indicated, that the 20% reduction was applied to the effective GCD after haste had been applied. Your model, if I have it correct now, does not matter whether haste is applied before or after, as they are applied independently to the 1.5s GCD.

Also my confusion may have come from the fact that in Beta, GotEM began as a fixed value, was nerfed to a smaller fixed value, then buffed to a percentage, then a further percentage. Therefore it didn't make sense that it would be a percentage of a fixed value as this is no different to a fixed value anyway.

EDIT: Corrected an error with the presentation of the latex equations

Last edited by Elorael : 12/24/08 at 12:24 AM.

 12/24/08, 1:35 AM #169 Glory Von Kaiser   Zeraleen Orc Warrior   Gilneas (EU) Well Eloarel I was with you in the nevermind post, but Uliko postet a /script print((select(2, GetActionCooldown(1)))) and he mentioned that it doesn't matter how much haste you got, say 150 haste -> Global CD of Thorns is GC of LB +0.3 The Tooltip is not wrong but misleading!!! its 20% of BASE Global Cooldown. Base Global CD is ALLWAYS 1.5 Sec because its the BASE Global CD and does not count haste. But interesting is that this -0.3 Sec is applied after Haste -> It's for our good. Last edited by Glory : 12/24/08 at 1:42 AM.
 12/24/08, 1:39 AM #170 Elorael Glass Joe     Elorael Night Elf Druid   Caelestrasz I haven't had a chance to test this myself, as I said regarding empirical data, but if that's the case, yes the tooltip is wrong (or misleading). I did note that all the posts regarding the use of those figures was pre-release though, so I'll test it myself to be happy with it in my own mind. If the collective wisdom is that its 0.3 and not 20% of the haste modified GCD then, cool, it lowers the amount of haste I have to collect. I just didn't want to fall short due to a misinterpretation. I'm not concerned about who is right, just what is right. Though I might be posting a few things at Blizzard EDIT: Testing on my Boomer respecced to Resto, 1.394 for thorns, 1.094 for Lifebloom. Therefore GotEM's buff is independent of the Haste, so regardless of which is applied first, they're additive on the base, not multiplicative. Now I have the question: WTF was the point of all the changes in Beta. They could have just taken the 0.5 to 0.3 and walked away. Last edited by Elorael : 12/24/08 at 2:17 AM.
12/24/08, 3:45 PM   #171
moxy
Von Kaiser

Night Elf Druid

Thunderlord
 Originally Posted by GTtheBard That leaves us with Crit. Mathematically, Regrowth is better than Nourish for a Flash Heal type spell, at least on targets without HOTs on them already. It also has a 50% chance to crit on top of the 15% or so we can get raid buffed...at which point, adding 1% Crit becomes slightly useless
I've heard this reasoning so many times now that I'm starting to wonder what I'm missing. I feel the exact opposite. High crit on regrowth makes each additional crit% more valuable not less. Healing is about consistency, having a healing spell crit 10% or 15% of the time is of little value, since you are casting it with the expectation that it will not crit. When it does crit it may be a nice bonus, but it will probably go for overheal. But regrowth at 70-75% is expected to crit, and will be cast as such. Having it not crit is the unexpected and dangerous outcome. The fact that it accounts for a small fraction of our total healing is misleading. NS+HT accounts for less than 1% of total healing, but few people want to glyph HT and lose that 1%. It's when it's used that's important, not how much.

I'm also really surprised to not have noticed a single mention of OoC in this thread. OoC management is one of the most important parts of my healing rotations and a major factor in valuing spirit a bit more than int.

12/24/08, 7:39 PM   #172
Maraili
Von Kaiser

Tauren Druid

Mannoroth
 Originally Posted by moxy I'm also really surprised to not have noticed a single mention of OoC in this thread. OoC management is one of the most important parts of my healing rotations and a major factor in valuing spirit a bit more than int.
I've thought about this for a while, and while OoC certainly is useful, I find that the times when I would need it most (Sapph or KT) I don't really have the time to keep an eye on my buff bar to watch for it when it appears. I've heard people say it has a unique sound, but I turn off all the sound so I can hear Vent chatter; any suggestions on how to make this more noticeable so it can be taken advantage of more?

 12/24/08, 7:44 PM #173 Playered Soda Popinski     Maifax Tauren Druid   Twisting Nether (EU) TellMeWhen and Powerauras are two addons which can help show you whatever proc you wish in a fashion you desire.
 12/25/08, 2:28 AM #174 Crytz Glass Joe   Wryts Orc Warrior   Illidan Well that Dreamstate build is obviously a no-go, but I'm convinced that a LG/GotEM build like this one might actually be preferable in some raid environments over a conventional Wild Growth build. This should be especially true after 3.0.8's Wild Growth change, and possibly even more so with the introduction of loot from Ulduar. Gains:75% extra Thorns damage; admittedly a minor bonus but min/maxing is min/maxing right? 3% passive haste on *all* spells; 18/0/53 builds already have this, but crit builds don't 12% int > spell power; this of course scales with Kings, Mark, and AI, meaning 110+ spell power raid buffed Losses:2pts in GotEM, which is .12sec added to the base HoT GCD Wild Growth 2 other points - you cannot afford more than 1/3 of Living Seed, Replenishment, or Natural Perfection. I'm thinking of this specifically as a 25-man raiding build. I have no doubt as to this build's limitations in all other settings. I am assuming 8% haste from Wrath of Air Totem and Moonkin Aura. Obviously the most biggest change is the loss of Wild Growth. I'm definitely one in the camp who feels that it's not a necessary spell at all, especially post-nerf. In almost all cases a smart healer can heal just as effectively with our traditional methods of preemptive hotting and swiftmend rejuvs, plus now Nourish. The next most important factor is that by going to only 3/5 GotEM, your base HoT GCD is 1.32sec. I'm using the following formula: [1.5 - (1.5 * .12)]/(100 - h) = 1.0 where h is the % haste needed for a 1.0sec GCD, and .12 represents 3/5 GotEM. If this is correct then you need 24.25% haste for a .9999sec GCD. With 3% from WoA, 5% from Moonkin Aura, and 3% from Celestial Focus (11% total), you need 13.25% haste from gear. Using Whitetooth's Combat Ratings Figures, 32.78998947 haste rating is needed for 1% haste. 13.25 * 32.78998947 = 434.46736 haste rating needed from gear. Unfortunately it's tricky to balance, but it seems like if you have most-spellpower-in-slot everywhere (like in this sample build) you have almost exactly what you need. Keep in mind, also, that if you're really hurting for the haste you could just use a 22/0/49 build and not worry about it at all, at the expense of 35-40 spell power. The niche of this build would obviously be on fights with multiple tanks, with either minimal raid healing or with other healers who can handle the raid. For example, the spec would rock on Patchwerk or Sarth 3D. It currently sucks for Sapphiron and it's less than ideal for Loatheb, though. I'd welcome any comments, corrections, complaints, gold donations, etc. Last edited by Crytz : 12/25/08 at 2:37 AM.
 12/25/08, 4:28 AM #175 Fallenangel Don Flamenco   Treesa Tauren Druid   Chromaggus (EU) You need to assume the same amount of points in GotEM in both builds, as both will want to achieve 1sec gcd on their hots. So the comparison is to 18/0/53. This removes the 3% haste benefit. In addtion, you're not missing 2 points in the resto tree but 4 - an 18/0/53 build has 5 points to spend on Replenish / Living Seed / Natural Perfection compared to your 1. Somewhat ironically, the value of WG should go up with the nerf, not down. Right now if you have 2 holy priests you can just let them spam CoH and focus on tank healing + emergency heals. Post-nerf, that won't be valid and each healer will have to pitch in more, so not having that efficient raid healing spell will force you or your other healers to work harder. I do think it's a valid build but probably not a default one - like you said it works well in some fights. Maybe with dual spec it can be the 2nd healing build.
12/25/08, 2:49 PM   #176
ithecho84
10bux

Tauren Druid

Maelstrom
 Originally Posted by Elorael I haven't had a chance to test this myself, as I said regarding empirical data, but if that's the case, yes the tooltip is wrong (or misleading). I did note that all the posts regarding the use of those figures was pre-release though, so I'll test it myself to be happy with it in my own mind. If the collective wisdom is that its 0.3 and not 20% of the haste modified GCD then, cool, it lowers the amount of haste I have to collect. I just didn't want to fall short due to a misinterpretation. I'm not concerned about who is right, just what is right. Though I might be posting a few things at Blizzard EDIT: Testing on my Boomer respecced to Resto, 1.394 for thorns, 1.094 for Lifebloom. Therefore GotEM's buff is independent of the Haste, so regardless of which is applied first, they're additive on the base, not multiplicative. Now I have the question: WTF was the point of all the changes in Beta. They could have just taken the 0.5 to 0.3 and walked away.
I'm kind of confused why this topic has come up for what seems like the fourth time. Did you read Uliko's posts at all? I'm just wondering what the point of all this reiteration is.

Also, in beta GotE went from a flat .5 second reduction to .15 second reduction (10% GCD reduction wording) with mana return on HT/Nourish to .3 second reduction (20% GCD reduction wording). The different wording was most likely to appease the concerned/angry players.

Edit-
 Originally Posted by Elorael us healers over at PlusHeal.com.
Oh I see now.

Last edited by ithecho84 : 12/25/08 at 3:08 PM.

12/26/08, 11:11 PM   #177
Banned

Night Elf Druid

Arygos
 Originally Posted by ithecho84 I'm kind of confused why this topic has come up for what seems like the fourth time. Did you read Uliko's posts at all? I'm just wondering what the point of all this reiteration is. Also, in beta GotE went from a flat .5 second reduction to .15 second reduction (10% GCD reduction wording) with mana return on HT/Nourish to .3 second reduction (20% GCD reduction wording). The different wording was most likely to appease the concerned/angry players.
The world will never know. :o

I just tell everyone how much haste they need, saves them all that math. 400 haste in a 10-man environment, 220 haste in 25-mans. (220 if you have both a moonkin and shammy/pally) Also, 400-500 mp5 while casting seems to be good regeneration. (unbuffed of course)

12/27/08, 12:11 AM   #178
Playered
Soda Popinski

Tauren Druid

Twisting Nether (EU)
 Originally Posted by Adriel The world will never know. :o I just tell everyone how much haste they need, saves them all that math. 400 haste in a 10-man environment, 220 haste in 25-mans. (220 if you have both a moonkin and shammy/pally) Also, 400-500 mp5 while casting seems to be good regeneration. (unbuffed of course)

Magic numbers you pull out of your arse have little purpose here.
400-500 MP5 (Mana while inside the 5 sec rule) is an absurd number that you -might- get while raid buffed in pretty solid gear. 400-500 Regen (Mana while outside the 5 sec rule) is a very small number that means you are undergeared for Naxx 10.

For a point of reference I have 261 MP5 / 840 Regen in mostly 25man gear unbuffed with a fairly broad spread of stats (no spiritless items).

I hope you think twice and make sure any 'advice' you give people in future comes with a warning.

 12/27/08, 1:58 AM #179 Adriel Banned   Moonfire Night Elf Druid   Arygos Huh. What ya talking about Playered :o Ok, since you want a detailed explaination, here it is. [Noth's Curse] [Lattice Choker of Light]* [Spaulders of the Monstrosity] [Drape of Surgery] [Heroes' Dreamwalker Robe]* [Cuffs of Winged Levitation]* [War Mace of Unrequited Love]* [Handbook of Obscure Remedies]* [Idol of Lush Moss]* [Heroes' Dreamwalker Handguards]* [Girdle of Lenience] [Splint-Bound Leggings] [Boots of the Follower] [Annhylde's Ring]* [Signet of Hopeful Light]* [Spirit-World Glass] [The Egg of Mortal Essence]* * items with asterisks are available pre-raiding, via Heroic Dungeons, Emblems of Heroism, and rep rewards. Items without asterisks are available in the first four wings of Naxx-10. And truthfully, many of them have counterparts in Heroic 5-mans. ** meta gem used is [Ember Skyflare Diamond], all other gems are straight spellpower. For this gear set: Total Intel: 968 Total Spirit: 964 Total MP5 In FSR: 419 Total MP5 Out of FSR: 1004 These numbers include Gift of the Wild and Blessing of Kings (10%), although just the 2% kings is fine. In addition, with +23 haste enchant on cloak, this gear set-up has 12% spell haste before buffs. Enough to reach 1 second GCD after buffs and GotEM. Any more questions? Although if anyone needs to know how to run Heroics/Naxx-10, that's best left for another thread.
 12/27/08, 2:32 AM #180 uliko Piston Honda   Feidan Night Elf Druid   Kor'gall (EU) Except with those stats you'd have 881 OO5SR regen and 296 inside. Also your profile is not filled out correctly since that character doesn't exist. Why hit food is bad "You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."

 Elitist Jerks Restoration Itemization