red

I've been using that idol almost exclusively in WLK so far. A quick and dirty test I did a while back showed that Harold's idol added the same amount per tick to Rejuv that Lush Moss added to each tick of Lifebloom. Therefore the choice on a fight was easy: which spell did I expect to tick more times? For the vast majority of encounters, I use the Rejuv idol. For you, it would depend on your spell usage, I know there are druids out there who use Lifebloom far more than Rejuv.

(I haven't considered Idol of Awakening yet; haven't seen it drop. I would probably use it over Harold's for most fights though.)

 

Nitz

I prefer the [Idol of Awakening] because I do around 35~ % of my healing with Rejuvenation which means it's worth a very massive amount of mp5.

 

Kysse

The two belts that drop off Malygos are currently the best healing belts in the game, which would you consider superior?
Currently I have [Leash of Heedless Magic] (with a +19 Spell Power gem) equipped but see that [Unravelling Strands of Sanity] definitely has higher mana regen on it.

What are your opinions?

 

jula

Rough math, assuming int/2 = 1mp5, spi/3 = 1mp5 +0.15 SP:

• [Leash of Heedless Magic] - 103 SP, 60 int -> 30mp5 , 48 spi -> 16 mp5 +7.2 SP , 62 haste = 110.2 SP, 46mp5, 62 haste
• [Unravelling Strands of Sanity] - 98 SP, 43 int -> 21.5mp5, 62 spi -> 21mp5 +9.3 SP , 19mp5 = 107.3 sp, 61.5mp5

So its: 2.9 SP + 62 haste VS 15.5 mp5
I would go with the haste.

 

Paininabox

I would hold off on making a decision until the extent of the nerf to regen is known. Since the belt you currently have has more Int and the Strands has less, there is a possibility that the one you have will be better. It's impossible to know for sure until we get some numbers off the PTR.

However, if I were to have to choose now, I would take the Strands. I've always loved tons of regen and the SP difference is negligible, and you would have to put out a conscious effort to not hit the haste soft cap as it is.

Level 80 Restoration Druid Spreadsheet here.
(v1.41)

 

• Playered

Rule of thumb: spell power > int > ...

Leash trades 14 spirit for 17 intellect and has higher spell power (not much but still better), considering spirit is worth less than intellect.. well it seems rather obvious at this point.
The choice between haste and MP5 honestly doesn't matter once you have the softcap on haste.

If Innervate remains untouched in 3.1 then Unravelling dips further into inferiority but as Ulduar will be out I doubt it will matter much.

 

Paininabox

Resto Spreadsheet has now been fixed. See my sig for the new link.

Level 80 Restoration Druid Spreadsheet here.
(v1.41)

 

George

Have you considered [Idol of Pure Thoughts]? From my very basic testing it appears to add 1 or 2 more healing per tick than [Harold's Rejuvenating Broach] does. A very marginal upgrade but it is also very easy to acquire.

 

KrinKer

Quick question that probably won't be answered before we see the extant of the nerf to mana regen, but anybody has an idea what will be the "ideal" gem for druids ?

I mean yeah 19 spell power gems will still probably be best in slot when it comes to throughput, but what happens to more "hybrid" gems.

9 spell power + 8 int
9 spell power + 8 spirit
9 spell power + 3 mp5

Really can't wait to see which one is the best.

 

Devinestorm

I was wondering if somone could give some thoughts on the choice for rings for restoration Druids?

Currently i use [Loop of the Kirin Tor] & [Band of Channeled Magic] as i see these two as the best in the game.

Can i have thoughts please as i have also been considering [Renewal of Life] to replace [Loop of the Kirin Tor] but it lacks spirit..... And this one has crit but no haste and id love some more haste...

Confused./

 

jula

I use the simple conversions of 1 int => 0.5 mp5, and 1 spi => 0.3 mp5 + 0.15 SP. and i get the following list of rings, ordered by spell power:

• [Signet of Manifested Pain] - 74 SP, 24.5 mp5, 46 crit, 36 haste, 46 sta
• [Titanium Spellshock Ring] - 73 SP, 16.5 mp5, 42 crit, 48 sta
• [Lost Jewel] - 70.5 SP, 31.3 mp5, 42 crit, 45 sta
• [Band of Channeled Magic]- 69.8 SP, 31.1 mp5, 43 haste, 42 sta
• [Wyrmrest Band] - 67 SP, 36 mp5, 32 haste, 41 sta
• [Renewal of Life] - 66 SP, 37.5 mp5, 28 crit, 48 sta
• [Ring of Decaying Beauty] - 66 SP, 36 mp5, 35 haste, 48 sta
• [Loop of the Kirin Tor] - 64.4 SP, 40mp5, 49 sta
• [Ring of Holy Cleansing] - 63.3 SP, 28.6 mp5, 36 haste, 36 sta
• [Timeworn Silken Band] - 63.2 SP, 28.3 mp5, 36 crit, 37 sta
• [Circle of Life] - 59 SP, 31 mp5, 34 haste 42 sta

I would skip the Titanium Spellshock Ring as it is very low mp5 and grants crit and not haste (i value haste much more) and the Lost Jewel is almost the same with just 2.5 less spell power but almost double the mp5. Manifested Pain is pretty good but might be best to pass for other classes, even thought it does lack mp5.

 

CrashOverride

Not to derail the conversation, but this is definitely a post about Resto itemization.

Norfair already indicated in the very first post that if you spend all your time in a raiding environment i5sr, then point for point, int actually returns more mana than spirit does. Obviously resto druids still aim for spirit on our gear since it provides spellpower as well, and as an added bonus if we can ever get a few ticks of o5sr regen in it's very powerful.

However - with the incoming o5sr spirit nerf, then one of the drawing points of stacking spirit is disappearing for us. If the nerf is at all significant (and they're making it sound like it will be), then getting in a few ticks of o5sr regen here and there won't have the massive effect it does now.

When this goes through, if druids in a raiding environment begin having mana issues in new content (Ulduar), then then we may have to change how we gem and enchant.

Right now, 3 +16 spirit gems will provide you with:
16.1 mp5
9.1 spellpower

if you instead choose 2 + 16 int gems and 1 +18 spellpower gem, you've given yourself:
16.7 mp5
18 spellpower

Since this is already how the itemization works, I'd have to say the reason that we're still choosing to gem and enchant for spirit on our gear is because it still makes o5sr regen (when you can take advantage of it) very powerful. But once the nerf goes through, it may not be worthwhile to try to take advantage of the five second rule.

Does it seem like Blizzard is inadvertently messing with our itemization? Based on our talent tree we're obviously meant to be a spirit based class, so it seems kind of backwards if in 3.1 we'll actually get more benefit by ignoring spirit and focusing on int and spellpower.

Edit: Maybe everyone was already aware of this. I'm somewhat new to WoW and even newer to druids.

 

Eilt

1. Not really sure why you would ever gem for pure spirit, the SP/SPI gem would be best for blue sockets if you need the bonus
2. You compare 3 blue gems vs two yellows and a red, if you wanted to compare it should be blue --> blue (so 9SP/8Spi vs 9SP/3mp5 gems)
3. Using the 9SP/8SPI gems gives us: ~30 SP; ~8mp5; vs the SP/mp5 blue giving ~27 SP; 9mp5;

That being said the common consensus is simply that Spellpower is the most valuable stat. Assuming you are not gemming for pure spellpower you usually take a hybrid gem, SP/INT for yellow, SP/SPI for blue, and always pure SP for red.

 

CrashOverride

Sorry - you're very correct in what you said. My comparison is a little off (I should have at least explained it better). And actually, I have been gemming exactly the way you describe and I definitely understand that. I guess being fairly new to druids, I was thrown by the fact that the "common knowledge" of the druid community seems to be so far off the mark when it comes to mana regen.

Part of my point though that I think might still be valid - as current itemization stands, if we ever did come into content where we were actually ooming and needed more mana, it looks like we would have to start sacrificing some other stats in favour of int. For a long time I was under the impression that we would have to sacrifice other stats in favour of spirit.

The whole reason for my int/spellpower vs spirit gem example was to indicate that if druids are ever having mana issues and having to start gemming in a way that gives us more mana even at the expensive of some socket bonuses, then using spirit gems whatsoever is pointless since int and spellpower gems gives us the same things but do it better. Having to aim for int (along with every other class) seems like a somewhat clumsy mechanic - classes like druids and priests who benefit from stacking spirit actually end up losing slightly from this while other classes (notably paladins) actually gain from this. Like I said before, this also serves to make our raiding gear different from our soloing/5 man gear, since we will need to stack spirit when we cannot rely on replenishment.

Am I missing something here? Also, has the druid mana regen model always been like this?

Although I'm intrigued by this and see the potential for itemization problems, I also think there's a good chance that it might not be that big a deal. Druids will still continue to roll on gear that has both int and spirit, and having to gem and enchant differently might not have that much of a noticeable effect once you're geared anyway. Although I do still feel slightly indignant that because of the way the game is set up, raid mechanics punish druids for taking what is supposed to be one of our main stats while rewarding holy paladins for stacking one of theirs.

 

Paininabox

The druid regen model is about both intellect and spirit. The correct balance between the two stats is important to good regen. Replenishment, however, throws the balance heavily in favor of intellect. Intellect triple-dips in three places in terms of druid regen: normal regen, max mana gained from intellect, and now Replenishment. In fact, Replenishment alone adds .1875 mp5 per point of intellect and .20625 with kings. For a druid in the upper echelons of raiding, Replenishment alone can easily add more than 250 mp5. Couple that with Blessing of Wisdom, Kings, and Mana Tide totem, and regen is completely out of whack. For lower levels of gear, the difference in value may not be as pronounced, but as gear gains higher quality the gulf widens.

My view is that while the current itemization and regen formulas may be tuned too highly, the buffs (particularly Replenishment) are the real culprit. Here are some numbers:

Gear used:

Head: Hood of Rationality
Shoulder: Valorous Dreamwalker Spaulders
Chest: Blanketing Robes of Snow
Wrist: Unsullied Cuffs
Gloves: Gloves of the Dancing Bear
Waist: Leash of Heedless Magic
Legs: Leggings of Mortal Arrogance
Feet: Boots of Persuasion
Neck: Life-Binder's Locket
Back: Cape of the Unworthy Wizard
Rings: Band of Channeled Magic
Lost Jewel
Trinkets: Darkmoon Card: Greatness (Int version)
Illustration of the Dragon Soul
Weapon: Torch of Holy Fire
OH: Matriarch's Spawn

Stats (vary due to trinket procs):

Int: 1250
Spi: 1234
SP: 2485
MP5 Casting: 926
MP5 Not Casting: 1475

Now if we break down the MP5 Casting:

• 302 MP5 from Replenishment
• 106 MP5 from Improved Mana Stream Totem
• 110 MP5 From Improved Wisdom
• 43 MP5 Imp Kings
• 30 MP5 Imp Divine Spirit
• 9 MP5 AI
• 326 Base from Gear

(These vary depending on what you attribute to what buff, i.e. Kings buffs Replenishment too, etc.)

So, only 35% of the total MP5 Casting regen can be attributed to base regen. Replenishment alone is 50% of buff regen and 33% of total casting regen. As you can see, 65% of this hypothetical druid's regen comes not from gear but buffs. This will only gets worse as gear progresses, and you will soon probably see druids with 400 Base casting mp5 fighting Arthas with a buffed 1200 mp5. I think Blizzard needs to take a good, long, hard look at regen buffs, and specifically Replenishment. I think after that buff is brought into a more respectable position, spirit might have a fighting chance and not just be wasted itemization.

EDIT: Oh, and this is before the nerf to spirit based regen.

Level 80 Restoration Druid Spreadsheet here.
(v1.41)

 

trismegistus

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one quite strongly. Your itemization leaves out 2pc and 4pc bonus which are both very useful in current content. Of course, BiS can vary slightly based on professions taken because there is no way a JC should ever choose [Gloves of the Dancing Bear] over [Valorous Dreamwalker Handguards].

Also, [Boots of Forlorn Wishes] is straight-up superior to [Boots of Persuasion], so I'm confused by that choice as well.

 

Paininabox

Yeah, I agree with you. I was just grabbing quick, high-profile items that I could remember as an example. Their purpose isn't so much to show the true best in slot items, but to show through high gear levels the distortion of regen sources.

Level 80 Restoration Druid Spreadsheet here.
(v1.41)

 

trismegistus

Fair enough on that. I still don't understand why there are so many cloth items that are superior to leather. The devs must not know how the majority of people play a Druid or just don't care. Far too much Haste and crit on gear when we need Int, Spi and MP5 (at the very least).

Hopefully this is just for starter gear and we will see better itemization on t8 gear and up. If [Loop of the Kirin Tor] is any indication on where it's headed, I for one will be very pleased.

 

Jurik

While I agree with your conclusion about replenishment, we should be aware that your analysis doesn't include the mana recovery from innervate. Currently, the maximum effect of innervate is around a full mana pool, about every 6 minutes. Just using napkin math of 20k mp is about 277 mp5. This brings replenishment's contribution to overall mana recovery down to "quite high" from "absurdly high".

This may or may not change with the 3.1, depending on whether Blizzard compensates for the spirit nerf by buffing innervate in 3.1.

The key point to take out of your analysis is that mana regen is very heavily influenced by the presence of replenishment and other raid-buffs rather than spirit gear, so nerfing out-of-5-second mana recovery may not be the best way to bring mana efficiency back as an encounter mechanic.

 

Paininabox

Agreed. It is even worse considering that after the OoFSR is nerfed, Blizzard will probably think that it has solved the too-much-regen problem and then it will crop up again after the Ulduar content is set on farm. They really need to spray some Round-Up on the roots of this rather than scapegoat it onto OoFSR regen.

EDIT: One way they might consider fixing this issue is to, in a way, regress the regen formula. They originally added Intellect into the regeneration formula to A. Buff spirit regen and B. include intellect. Now that intellect is a huge part of Wrath regen, they can probably pull that out, or at least change it so intellect has a much smaller impact. They could then manipulate the constant to bring the formula to the state they desire. This move could serve many purposes, including:

Nerfing regen
Bringing the worth of intellect down
Simplifying the complicated regen formula (aka spirit is worth .5 mp5 forever)
Making the formula more linear, and thus easier to balance

Level 80 Restoration Druid Spreadsheet here.
(v1.41)

 

• Playered

Pain that gear setup you listed is missing 200 haste or so from the cap which is well.. really odd considering how hard it is to actually do that without aiming for critical strike on purpose. I would advise you to remove the list to avoid confusion of people thinking it is a "BiS" setup or something to be followed because it is wrong in several areas and well you know how people will be stupid and ignore reading the post and just see the list :P

It's really awkward to spend much time mathing out 3.1 regeneration though before we know other changes. The odd thing is that technically leaving Innervate alone will make Spirit slightly better to stack as you won't (assuming a 50% nerf) cap out your mana pool and thus it retains some value there where right now you cap and Int is worth more. However it would also cut the actual value of Spirit almost in half which makes that meaningless, alas.


You are right in thinking that removing the Int inclusion into the Spirit Regeneration would go a ways to balancing both stats out a tad better because that is the only other way to really weaken Int without touching Replenishment and lets face it even a small nerf to Replenishment will not stop Intellects superiority considering they have stated their wishes to leave it mostly alone.
It also brings a slight side effect of making Intellect the "raiding stat" because the only real way it provides regeneration is via Replenishment.. and this could allow them to perhaps build PvP sets with less Int on it in order to stop drains being that effective and focus more on regeneration but that's really not my area of the game to think much about :P

 

Paininabox

Haha, I guess I assumed the haste would just line up properly, considering that it seems to be everywhere. I'll go remove any mention of best-in-slot from the post, because you are entirely too right. I had used my spreadsheet to show me which pieces were best, but the lack of giving haste any value is starting to show . I just wish it weren't so damn annoying to model.

Level 80 Restoration Druid Spreadsheet here.
(v1.41)

 

Fallenangel

Not sure in what context you mean that Spirit will lose half its value. Currently Spirit is worth nothing for innverate regen but it's capped by max-mana. Nerfing the mana regen formula coefficient without changing it will favor Spirit since the shift changes from your max-mana (int-affected) to the OOSR actual regen number. As such this change means spirit is worth more mp5 than it is now. Remember that the in-5SR regen is supposed to be more or less the same as it is now due to buffs to Intensity.

 

• Playered

You are correct that once you bypass a certain amount where your Innervate gives you far too much mana then Spirit hits a softcap per say. However the only real way to do this is to excessively stack Spirit beyond normal means and by potentially using MDF (or SWG) in full BiS gear (lets leave out the Innervate glyph). MDF/SWG can be switched out for a generic SP/x trinket and that solves the problem so I never thought of the need to include the softcap for Spirit into any calculations.

 

Fallenangel

I wasn't referring to any soft spirit cap, I was just wondering what you meant by "However it would also cut the actual value of Spirit almost in half which makes that meaningless, alas.". Spirit will give more mp5 in 3.1 assuming that I5SR regen is left the same (as was stated by Blizzard posters) and that the O5SR nerf is done by reducing the coefficient and not by some other means - like messing around with the formula.