Elitist Jerks Restoration Itemization

12/31/08, 7:22 AM   #196
Jahdruid
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

Crushridge
 Originally Posted by Rhaegal Rejuv is 18% of base mana, or 3796 * 0.18 = 683 before talents/gear. Normal: 683.28 * 0.91 (Moonglow) * 0.80 (ToL) = 497 mana With 2T7: 683.28 * 0.91 (Moonglow) * 0.80 (ToL) * 0.95 (2T7) = 473 mana Difference: 24 mana (These numbers seem wrong to me, but I'm at work and can't double check my actual mana cost. Am I missing a talent?)
When I mouse over my rejuv (in tree form with 3/3 moonglow) it says 415 mana (with 2T7), and 446 (normal).

Thanks for the post under me.

Last edited by Jahdruid : 12/31/08 at 4:28 PM. Reason: explained under me

12/31/08, 8:02 AM   #197
Norfair
Piston Honda

Night Elf Druid

Grim Batol (EU)
 Originally Posted by Jahdruid When I mouse over my rejuv (in tree form with 3/3 moonglow) it says 415 mana (with 2T7), and 446 (normal). Though your math looks correct, I can't think what the difference is.
His base mana is incorrect, it's 3496. So that would be 3496*0.18 = 629 without any talents.

Also, Moonglow and ToL stack, so it's not 629 * 0.91 * 0.80, but it's 629 * 0.71. The same goes for the 2 T7 bonus, it reduces base cost (with ToL and Moonglow) by 66% instead of 71% and then 5%.

01/02/09, 5:20 AM   #198
Glass Joe

Gnome Mage

Windrunner
A Crit Tree

So in an effort to distill some of the aforementioned wisdom, I went ahead and took a shot at making a best in slot list. While this list is by no means exhaustive and is arguable at points, I did give preference to gear with spirit on it since there inevitably will come a day when regen will matter much more than it does in farm status. Also I do understand that you could skip the regen for purer dps pieces, however I'll let someone else work on that list.

[Hood of Rationality]
[Necklace of the Glittering Chamber]
[Spaulders of Catatonia]
[Cape of the Unworthy Wizard]
[Valorous Dreamwalker Robe] / ([Blanketing Robes of Snow])
[Bands of Impurity] / ([Unsullied Cuffs])
[Valorous Dreamwalker Handguards]
[Leash of Heedless Magic]
[Leggings of Mortal Arrogance]
[Boots of Persuasion] / ([Arcanic Tramplers])
[Lost Jewel]
[Band of Channeled Magic]
[Illustration of the Dragon Soul]
[Forethought Talisman]
[Torch of Holy Fire]
[Accursed Spine]

I am making this list with an emphasis on Critical Strike and Throughput. I am using Regrowth as my main spell which can be buffed by haste and crit. So heavily stacking crit will achieve 76.31% with raid buffs. This then increases haste through the Nature's Grace talent. Also Crit buffs Living seed which is not generally accounting for much of my healing, however it does add more throughput. I am making an attempt to reach the soft haste cap of 220 in order to achieve the 1 second gcd assuming raid buffs. And I am going for the 2-piece set bonus since it is quite good however the 4-piece set bonus is in my mind quite cumbersome while there is better gear available in those slots, and I rarely cast Nourish. There are several pieces that I am choosing with an emphasis of crit over spellpower in order to maximize this (14/0/57) build. I also am including the equivalent pieces with >spell power in parentheses in the appropriate slot.

The Skinny
Un-buffed / (fully raid buffed, flasked + food, Spellpower enchants with spirit to cloak & boots, and Runed Scarlet Rubies with an Ember Skyflare Meta)

Mana - 18446 (21656)
Int - 896 (1110)
Spirit - 940 (1199)
Healing - 2537.35 (2748.85)
Haste Rating - 230
Crit - 20.03% (26.31%)

This came from plugging the above gear into Rawr 2.14. I am using all buffs including Imp MOTW, Imp INT, Imp Kings, & Imp Divine Spirit. I am using the 3.08 nerfed value for IotDS. I am not infallible and these numbers could be incorrect. Please correct as necessary.

My main question right now in terms of itemization currently involves whether it is prudent to use enchants and gems to buff Crit further, while still remaining practical. I doubt I'll be swapping out Runed Scarlet Ruby with Smooth Autumn's Glow, yet I wonder what the theoretical maximum is just the same. However [Arcanum of Burning Mysteries] & [Greater Inscription of the Storm] are attractive and would add 35 Crit rating or .76%

 Originally Posted by KrinKer I've asked this before in my longer post but I'd like to know if someone would be able to tell me/us how much haste does crit rating gives when u factor in nature's grace when spamming regrowth ?
So now we should then try to figure out exactly how much haste a Nature's Grace proc is worth on Regrowth. In order to achieve a 1.5 second regrowth we'd have to have

1.5 = 2(1-x).
x = 25%.

So to get the corresponding haste rating from gear to achieve this 1.5 second cast would need this

1% haste = 32.79 haste rating
25% haste = 32.79 haste rating *25% = 819.75 Haste rating

The place where all this gets hairy is if the Nature's Grace proc can be modeled linearly. If it isnt then detemining the value of Crit in terms of Haste gets harder, and I'm not sure how to model it. If it is linear then a ratio can solve for X. Assuming it is though I'll do some napkin math with some crit % that can reasonably be achieved with gear 76.31%.

76.31%(819.75) = 625.55 Haste Rating

However even if I were naked but still talented in this way I'd still have a 55.6 crit % on Regrowth

55.6%(819.75) = 455.61 Haste Rating

Extropolating furthur

76.31 crit % - 55.6 crit % = 20.71 crit %
625.55 haste rating - 455.61 haste rating = 169.94 haste rating

169.94 haste rating / 20.71 crit % = 8.21 haste rating
1 % crit = 8.21 haste rating

1 % crit = 45.91 crit rating

45.91 crit rating = 8.21 haste rating
1 crit rating = .18 haste rating

Feel free to do your worst with the above Math.

Last edited by Fateblade : 01/03/09 at 6:21 PM. Reason: Added Math for Crit to Haste conversion

 01/06/09, 7:18 AM #200 Norfair Piston Honda     Norfair Night Elf Druid   Grim Batol (EU) Why make it so hard? Nature's Grace gives a 33% haste buff to Regrowth (or 50% haste buff to Nourish). That means that 1% crit gives (on average) 0.33% haste as well. 45.92 crit rating gives 10.82 haste rating, or 1 crit rating gives 0.235 haste rating for Regrowth. However, Regrowth heals a lot more with crit since... well, crits heal more and Living Seed adds healing too. I think if you math it in the end crit rating will give you slightly more hps than haste rating, but I'm not entirely sure.
 01/06/09, 3:47 PM #201 Candlelight Glass Joe   Candlelight Night Elf Druid   Gnomeregan Lootrank Itemization I am still tinkering with values, but this Lootrank itemization makes sense to me (most of the time). <> Assumptions: 1. I emphasized Spell Power as our most important stat (no surprise). Thereafter, emphasis was placed on Spirit, Intelligence and Stamina. I know there is active discussion in this thread concerning the relationship between Spirit and Inteliigence. I placed a slightly higher value on Spirit. (Tweak values if you disagree.) 2. I placed a nominal value on haste and crit since nearly all of our gear comes with one or the other anyway. This doesn't mean I hate either stat. Rather, I gave each a value of "1" to acknowledge their presence on our gear and to prioritize them over the straight mp5 stat, which I valued at zero. 3. I only wear leather gear. (Sorry clothies). 4. I did not include pvp gear. 5. I forced gem slots since WotLK slot bonuses are often better than BC, imo. Here again, tweak as you deem appropriate. The results generally work for me. I tend to keep my eye on the top 3 slot choices since there is no guarantee that I will always get the best-in-slot item if/when it drops. People may quibble with some of the results, i.e. trinket selection, but that's where common sense kicks in. As always, feedback and suggested changes to the Lootrank values are always appreciated. Last edited by Candlelight : 01/06/09 at 4:45 PM.
01/06/09, 4:12 PM   #202
Zipporah
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

Stormscale (EU)
 Originally Posted by Norfair Intellect 1 intellect provides the following: 1 intellect increases mana pool with 15 mana (16.5 with Kings). On a typical 8 minute fight this can be converted to 0.172 mp5 Assuming 1000 intellect and 1000 spirit, 1 intellect increases your main mana regeneration with 0.485 mp5 out of the five second rule or 0.145 mp5 in the five second rule (assuming Intensity and Kings). Since Replenish works off the size of your mana pool, 16.5 (Kings) extra mana means 0.206 mp5 more through Replenishment. 1 intellect also increases the chance you critically hit with spells by 0.006%. This sums up to 0.523 mp5 and a little bit of crit chance. However, this number can change a lot based on your intellect, spirit, Replenishment uptime, duration of the encounter and time spent in the five second rule.
Don't forget the effect of [Ember Skyflare Diamond].

 01/06/09, 6:58 PM #203 Glory Von Kaiser   Zeraleen Orc Warrior   Gilneas (EU) Updated my post to factor Living Seed for Crit/Haste setups Glory Post #199 As you see even with Livingseed healing always and with no overheal and no bug, you will heal less with max crit. Also it is not that easy to say Nature's Grace is 25% Haste or 33%, because only with common Raidbuffs you get your cast time of RG to 1.85 Sec then its equivalent to 37% Haste. But for Nourish its the other way round, because you have a limit of 1Sec GCD the more Haste you have the less haste is Nature's Grace worth. 0,6 Sec Nourish or 1 Sec Nourish doesnt matter. Well maybe it helps you on reactiv healing to land your heals befor the paladins. And 33% haste is not 67% Cast time left it only means you cast 4 Spells in the time you cast 3 Spells without haste. Haste wins always if you dont have Manaissues.
01/06/09, 7:29 PM   #204
Elorael
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

Caelestrasz
 Originally Posted by Candlelight I am still tinkering with values, but this Lootrank itemization makes sense to me (most of the time). <> Assumptions: 1. I emphasized Spell Power as our most important stat (no surprise). Thereafter, emphasis was placed on Spirit, Intelligence and Stamina. I know there is active discussion in this thread concerning the relationship between Spirit and Inteliigence. I placed a slightly higher value on Spirit. (Tweak values if you disagree.) 2. I placed a nominal value on haste and crit since nearly all of our gear comes with one or the other anyway. This doesn't mean I hate either stat. Rather, I gave each a value of "1" to acknowledge their presence on our gear and to prioritize them over the straight mp5 stat, which I valued at zero. 3. I only wear leather gear. (Sorry clothies). 4. I did not include pvp gear. 5. I forced gem slots since WotLK slot bonuses are often better than BC, imo. Here again, tweak as you deem appropriate. The results generally work for me. I tend to keep my eye on the top 3 slot choices since there is no guarantee that I will always get the best-in-slot item if/when it drops. People may quibble with some of the results, i.e. trinket selection, but that's where common sense kicks in. As always, feedback and suggested changes to the Lootrank values are always appreciated.
One question I have is why you'd leave MP5 unweighted. While Spirit is preferable for a druid over MP5, this by no means leaves MP5 as a useless stat. Two equivalent pieces where one had a large amount of spirit and the other had no spirit but MP5 are both preferable to a much weaker item that still had spirit. Yes, Innervate improvement and a bit of Spellpower come from Spirit too, but MP5 is still an important stat with value, when weighting loot.

Don't discount MP5 just because it doesn't give you a smidge of spellpower per point.

01/06/09, 8:01 PM   #205
Aldowithout
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

Emeriss (EU)
 Originally Posted by Candlelight I am still tinkering with values, but this Lootrank itemization makes sense to me (most of the time). <> 2. I placed a nominal value on haste and crit since nearly all of our gear comes with one or the other anyway. This doesn't mean I hate either stat. Rather, I gave each a value of "1" to acknowledge their presence on our gear and to prioritize them over the straight mp5 stat, which I valued at zero. As always, feedback and suggested changes to the Lootrank values are always appreciated.
I find it strange that you rank Haste with a value of "1", yet stamina with a value of "4". I understand that stamina is important as most raids have raid wide damage that need to be survived, but this ends up ranking [Earthgiving Boots] above [Boots of the Follower]. I realise that this is only to be used as a guide but perhaps a bit more tweaking should be done?

Also [Cuttlesteak] is way down the list on the food section (amongst others).

 01/06/09, 10:25 PM #206 calderstrake Piston Honda     Apotheostus Troll Druid   Exodar Agreed, the Stamina ranking seems a bit off. On this run, I changed Stamina to 0 and put MP5 at 10. This seems to correct the flaw mentioned above. Loot Rank for resto Druid (Leather only, no PvP) One thing I noticed while looking at the buffs at the bottom was that [Elixir of Draenic Wisdom] is ranked above [Elixir of Spirit] and [Elixir of Mighty Thoughts]. It seems we have no direct replacement yet. Has anyone tested the in-game performance difference for these three in current raid content? I think most people (myself included) are just using [Flask of the Frost Wyrm]. So in basic terms is 30Int AND 30Spi > 50Spi OR 45Int?
 01/06/09, 10:28 PM #207 Elorael Glass Joe     Elorael Night Elf Druid   Caelestrasz That all depends on your current Spirit and Int values. *rest of post cut as the tool appears to be gone*
01/06/09, 10:34 PM   #208
calderstrake
Piston Honda

Troll Druid

Exodar
I find this to be the best summary:

 So, what is the best choice of stats? Balance. A healthy 1:1 ratio will yield the best regen value per stat point. For progressed raiders, spirit may yield a tad more regen in the end with a 14:12 ratio. ref
In the end it seems that the high-end raiders will want the [Elixir of Draenic Wisdom] since it will help maintain the current ration better than boosting one stat over the other. Of course, we can also hope an upgraded version of this elixir will appear in future content patches.

I'd also like to see more gear with less itemization points wasted on crit and Haste.

 01/06/09, 11:04 PM #209 Playered Soda Popinski     Maifax Tauren Druid   Twisting Nether (EU) For all reasonable levels of gear right now (base Int/Spi: 800/800, 1000/1000, 800/900, 900/1000, 1000/1100, 1000/1200) including normal raid buffs applied after: Draenic Wisdom is always superior to the Spirit or Int elixirs. On a flat MP5 (character sheet+Replenish) level the Spirit one will beat the Int version by a very small margin. On a real value for Int (including bonus mana et all) then the Int elixir will beat the Spirit one. Time spent OO5SR should not change these results significantly due to the Int inclusion in the formula unless you intend to spend large amounts of time AFK during the encounter in which case I do not care.
01/07/09, 5:05 AM   #210
Norfair
Piston Honda

Night Elf Druid

Grim Batol (EU)
 Originally Posted by Glory Updated my post to factor Living Seed for Crit/Haste setups Glory Post #199 As you see even with Livingseed healing always and with no overheal and no bug, you will heal less with max crit. Also it is not that easy to say Nature's Grace is 25% Haste or 33%, because only with common Raidbuffs you get your cast time of RG to 1.85 Sec then its equivalent to 37% Haste.
I checked it quickly before my previous post and noticed Nature's Grace only shaves off 0.4 sec off my current Regrowth, so I assumed it worked that way. After a bit more testing it seems that we are both wrong. What Nature's Grace does is reduce casttime by 0.5 and THEN apply haste. So if you have 20% haste, it will treat Regrowth as if it's a 1.5 sec cast and then reduces it to a 1.25 sec cast, even though without Nature's Grace Regrowth will cast for 1.67. So back to the drawing board I guess.

Edit: about that MP5 value for lootrank, it should never be 0 of course. It should be greater than spirit even, since 1 mp5 will give a lot more mana back than 1 spirit.

 Originally Posted by Zipporah Don't forget the effect of [Ember Skyflare Diamond].
I forgot about that one, but I'm not sure if it's wise to add it initially since not everyone is using that meta. However I can add the final values for when you do use that meta, which I'll do soon.

 Elitist Jerks Restoration Itemization