Fiarce

Was curious to know if there's been a lootrank weight decision agreed on by the resto druids on the boards. I haven't seen a loot rank for quite some time. And curious to know the druid's thoughts on Haste vs. Crit, and how druids will be using lifebloom after 3.1 lands, and if it will change the way the druids on these boards will be itemizing after the patch.

Currently, I still value Haste a bit higher than crit, I am in a guild with a few resto druids, so I see myself using my GCD's to their fullest, where I have a druid in my guild that is more geared towards regrowth. My typical usage goes:

Rejuv
Wildgrowth
Nourish
Regrowth

I guess it's because in my guild it works the best, therefore haste is a huge asset to me. Any deviations due to the itemization/3.1 changes for anyone?

In a numerical sense, haste-crit is 1 v .8

Looking for feedback and thoughts about this weight.

 

Allinone

This is a real slash and dash attempt to answer your question, but I think haste-crit should be closer to a 3-1 mix if you are looking at a pure HPM value. I ran the theoretical HPM gained from both 100 crit/haste and 1000 crit/haste for each spell and then examined the delta (difference between the what the spell currently hits for and what it would hit for with the added Crit or Haste). I compared the Delta of each and found that on a per point basis, Haste increased the HPM of each individual spell from a range of 2.8-3.2 times as much as crit did(On Healing Touch, Regrowth, and Nourish)

Now, Crit only effects HT, Regrowth, and Nourish (and the Bloom of Lifebloom if you let it bloom), while Haste speeds up all your GCD's and would allow you to throw more HoT's out,

This 3-1 ratio is assuming that you are spamming heals as fast as you can. If you are just casting one then Crit gets a little more credit. As for the rest of your lootranking questions, not much has changed if you spent most of your time in the 5 second rule.

 

Paininabox

I just wanted to make sure that if you are using my spreadsheet for those numbers that you realize that the hps calculations don't account for living seed. I had left it out because it wouldn't do overheal and in this easy content it was pretty insignificant. Now that it actually is a reliable 30% off of a crit and now that tanks will get smacked hard by progression bosses, I think I'll be having to modify those calculations.

I'm actually in the process of developing a good scale, as opposed to the crappy one currently, in my spreadsheet based on partial derivatives of effective hps for each spell with respect to each stat, and then using weighted averages of % total effective healing for each spell that the user inputs to get net overall values for each stat. It should be pretty cool.

Level 80 Restoration Druid Spreadsheet here.
(v1.41)

 

Allinone

Yeah. I was using your spreadsheet. Again, let me thank you for your continued effort in giving Resto Druids an amazing tool. Just a thought, can we get a thread started dedicated to refining it?

 

Fiarce

That spreadsheet, if I remember correctly, doesn't have haste weighed on it at all right? I find it hard to understand it's exact purpose when measuring gear to gear in these cases.

 

Paininabox

You're correct, there is no haste weight. The reason for this is the healing side of the scale is based on equivocating 1 point of spell power to the other stats. That's a wonky way to do it, and doesn't work for haste because haste just increases the hps of a spell and not how hard it hits. In those situations, you really just have to feel it out. Your casted heals will benefit from it, as will your instants. Then again, your instants' GCD will cap out at 1, so after that haste becomes useless for half your spell arsenal. Haste is also only as good as the amount of time you find yourself chain casting. It's a strange stat for resto druids, to say the least.

You're welcome . I intend to start a thread soon (I was planning about next week), but I wanted to give it a little bit more time to add some deeper features and calculations so as to have things to discuss.

Level 80 Restoration Druid Spreadsheet here.
(v1.41)

 

grimtage

Haste is so useful up until the soft cap, then it's significantly less useful. Soft cap is dependent on your spec and you should read the first page of this thread to find further information on haste cap. The way gear works out now days, you basically get enough regen to have mana to last a fight, you get enough haste to hit the soft cap and then you throw everything into spellpower. You end up picking up crit, it's an okay stat come 3.1, but it's not even close to spell power simply because of our HoTs. I think it's still better than haste after you hit the haste soft cap though, the amounts aren't as easy to weigh as dps, because it's hugely dependent on what spells you cast, if you're throwing mostly RJ/LB/WG around then you're gonna get diddley squat from crit, but if you're a big regrowth/nourish kinda guy, you're gonna love crit come 3.1.

Personally, I decide by going: "What's got the most spell power with spirit on it?" I basically can't avoid getting haste/crit/mp5 with it, I try to avoid mp5 unless it's significantly more spell power. After that, I choose the items with haste for the slots to get the haste cap in as few sacrifices of spellpower as possible. Then I throw whatever else I can into maximising spell power. I end up getting more haste than crit. Given a choice, I will always pick up the haste, I'm a fan of dependable healing, so I'd rather assume I'm not going to crit and have just enough healing over hoping that I crit and potentially not critting and losing someone. If you check my spec, I don't even have Living Seed, Improved Regrowth or Nature's Grace. That's how much I dislike crit. It's not advisable in terms of theorycrafting numbers, but I figure losing out on 10% healing to assure that I don't depend on RNG to keep someone alive is worth it.

 

Fiarce

The weight that I had posted, 1 v .8, was more of a number I would throw out to a druid trying to simply figure out what's up, without having all BIS. Right now, I am sitting with just about 100% BIS, I have the Unsullied Cuffs in my inventory that I just got. The only piece I am missing is the headpiece off of Sarth that is incorrectly itemized, at the moment. After that, I will have every BIS piece, followed by 2nd BIS piece. I have to say Haste = Law 'till cap. But even then, I would probably take out GotEM points and continue to stack haste...

Without MOTW, with 10 stacks of the ISD, and tree-form's 6% healing, my healing is roughly worth 2650, with a flask and well fed + totems.... goodbye 3K mark. And that's WITH my 213 set pieces. I am sitting at Haste Cap easily, I believe, and during my last 25Man Sapphiron, I came dangerously close to breaking 5k HPS, and I wasn't even Lifeblooming. I rarely lifebloom, the druid that plays with me is the Lifebloom and Regrowth machine, I go Rejuvination, Wildgrowth.

Anyhow, I think I'm on the right track with what I have, I don't have the Sapph kill in this WWS (Our WWS Parser DC'd )

Take a look: http://wowwebstats.com/zso2upqvu33gs?m&s=719868-753118

That's a patchwerk kill, I am not crit dependant (unless you count that regrowth talent) and with enough haste, even DH spells get off so fast that it makes us seem almost viable to be MT healers. The only screw up on that patchwerk heal chart is a wild growth that I pressed by accident.

Are you druids seeing similar numbers with 226 bis gear?

 

Zuel

Mid-February without full 226 BIS gear I was breaking 5.8k HPS on Sapphiron:

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/1723382#healingout

With just rejuv and WG spam it's pretty ridiculous the numbers we can get on that fight. Patchwerk main/offtank healing I'm at about 4200 just keeping lifebloom, rejuv and regrowth up on two tanks and regrowth spamming in between. Fights like Sapphiron by no means require you to maintain 6k HPS, but it is fun to see.

Lately I've been seeing lower HPS numbers on Sapph with the same strategy and better gear, mainly because of the number of healers we've been taking for Immortal runs (usually 6). Everyone is obsessed with healing the smallest amount of damage immediately, so you get a lot of overheal.

I don't recall exactly what my haste was back then, but it was something like 300+ unbuffed. I've since dropped to about 170 and it's a noticeable difference, but nothing life-threatening. I'm dropping some spirit/set bonuses for more haste to reach a 1 second GCD for faster rejuv raid healing spam for Ulduar.

 

Fiarce

All right, looks like I'm on the right track then. Appreciate the numbers, Peach. Now I'm off to the UI thread to check out the different mods and edits for Grid to show my Rejuv's on raid targets and such.

P.s. - killer heals, man.

Edit: While I'm here, would you guys suggest dropping all but 2 pieces of 7.5 for the 5% rejuv deductive cost for some other 226? Also, from the items I have set up on my wowarmory, would you reccomend a step in the spirit direction and away from the direct healing? I have a boatload already, I suppose maybe I need to start moving towards less SP, and more SPI for the longer fights inc in Ulduar.

 

Cerredwin

Didnt see any calculations about this item Pandora's Plea - Item - World of Warcraft
Tried to do some myself, but this is using pre 3,1 values of spirit, intellect and mana regen, so i guess its not quite correct, still i think the general idea of it should place it as a relatively good item, with more balance between throughput and regen, so usefull for those fights where you need the extra regen. Atleast i think its an item id really like as i prefer having more balance on items i wear so i can use the gems i feel like to get the best end result.


Assuming 2% extra to all stats from imp motw, imp bok 10%, 80 % of fight within 5 sec rule.
I get it to be about 71,5 mp5, 1817 extra mana, and from the wowhead comments i pulled out the value of 150 sp.
(850 SP * 10 / (45 ICD + 10 sec proc buffer * 1.5 gcd))


So does this put as a 3rd best trinket for througput ? 1st and 2nd beeing Eye of the Broodmother - Item - World of Warcraft and Illustration of the Dragon Soul - Item - World of Warcraft


Sorry if this data is completely incorrect, but should be not be to far from the truth ?

 

Fallenangel

I'd say Pandora's Plea - Item - World of Warcraft is just badly itemizied. DPS casters don't want +int on their trinkets and +SP procs aren't too hot for healers. Quite a classic example for the "Gear Homoginiziation - making everybody unhappy since 2008".
Trinket slot is the only place where gear customization is actually relevant, instead of choicing between 2 relatively useless stats (haste and crit). As such, Spark of Hope looks like the most attractive option.

 

Fugedabowdit

Hey, all. I've been trying to put together a loot rank relative stat value template for resto druid, one that hopefully will be still more or less valid after 3.1 comes out. Here's what I've come up with so far, cobbled together from various sources, and definitely NOT backed by hard numbers/calculations.

Spell power: 19
mP5: 7
Int: 8
Spirit: 12
Haste: 9
Crit: 3

My style is definitely one of rolling lifebloom/HoTs > Direct heals, so I de-emphasized crit. (I know this style will likely have to change after the patch). I'd love to hear people's feedback on this. Good for pre/post patch? Good for my style, suggested changes for others?

 

jula

This 5800 HPS is quite a pointless number as HPS can't be compared between anyone not in the same raid assigned to the same role.

Looking at Sapphiron - the more healing the other healers will do the less HPS you will have. My druid got better gear every week but my HPS steadily dropped as other healers got better and there was less to heal.
You could probably do this fight with 3 healers and get much higher HPS if you wanted.
You could bring a tank like a feral in polar gear that is just a huge dmg soaking machine, giving you X2 more to heal to pump up your HPS.

HPS is not like DPS. You can't compare it like that. Even DPS you need to compare equal length fights with same buffs/debuffs. Take a mage thats doing 6.5k dps on a 2min patchwrek. Repeat the fight, same mage, same gear, same raid, just have the other dps go slack-mode and do low dps on purpose. That same mage will be doing like 500+ DPS less just because the fight duration jumped from 2min to 4min.

 

gnawed

With 3.1, most Druids will initially upgrade their coveted Torch of Holy Fire with the Guiding Star. However, it seems that there is at least one option that's even better than the lvl 232 Guiding Star, the lvl 239 Staff of Endless Winter. This probably drops off the final boss, as it is higher level than all the other items. We assume that the legendary weapon will be the best available in game, but since the stats aren't clear yet and it will probably take a long time to collect all the components, an analysis of the other alternatives is worthwhile.

Staff of Endless Winter
111 Stamina
128 Intellect
118 Spirit [102 + 16 (Gems)]
104 Crit
701 Spellpower [587 + 81 (Enchant) + 18 (Gems) + 9 (Socket Bonus)]


Guiding Star + Ironmender
90 Stamina [36 (Mainhand) + 54 (Offhand)]
95 Intellect [48 (Mainhand) + 47 (Offhand)]
45 Spirit (Offhand)
85 Haste [49 (Mainhand), 36 Haste (Offhand)]
15 MP5 (Mainhand)
687 Spellpower [550 (Mainhand) + 74 (Offhand) + 63 (Enchant)]

The Staff seems to be the much better choice. Here's what you gain and lose by choosing the staff over the mace/offhand combo:
+21 Stamina
+33 Intellect
+73 Spirit
+104 Crit
+14 Spellpower
-85 Haste
-15 MP5

The 73 spirit translates to about 73 * 0.335 = 24 MP5, so losing the MP5 isn't even an issue.

To summarize, choosing the staff over the mace/offhand will result in a major stat boost, a regen boost, and a tradeoff of haste for crit.

Edit: It's interesting to note that without the staff enchant, the raw SP value of the mace/offhand would be higher than the staff (683 vs 687). However, in ToL, the 73 spirit provides an additional 11 SP (bringing the staff ahead, 694 vs 687). But, with the new staff enchant, the staff decimates the mace/offhand combo by a total of +25 SP factoring in the Spirit->SP bonus from ToL.

 

Allinone

Assumptions

1. 1300 Int/Spirit (A reasonable gear level to achieve raid buffed)
2. 8 Minute Fight
3. Fully Raid Buffed (Most Importantly Kings)
4. Living Spirit, Intensity, and Improved Tree Of Life
5. 25% of the effective healing will be done by spell that can crit. This is dependant on a personal play style. If you use more crittable spells, then your value for crit will go up, if you use less, it will go down.
6. An 80% uptime on Replenishment is assumed. From looking at my own WWS reports, most fights seemed to range between 70 and 90%. A 100% uptime seems to be to simple of a calculation.
7. No time is spent outside the 5 second rule.

Mana Regen Stats (Backed by Hard Numbers)

Mp5 = 1
Int = .505
Spirit = .3820

Now the question we ask ourselves is how do we rate 1 Spell Power to 1 mp5? This is open to debate. Some might choose to rate it as high as 1 mp5 to 1 Spell Power, others might assume a 2 to 1 ratio. As it currently stands, I'm going to use 1 mp5 = .8 Spell Power. So for our throughput stats,

Spell Power = .8
Spirit (From Improved Tree Of Life) = .12
Haste = .12
Crit = .056
Int (From Crit) = .016

The throughput stats are less exact than the mana regeneration stats. In an earlier post I had arrived at a conclusion that Haste gave 3 times the throughput value of Crit (until the soft cap was reached), but that ignored Living Seed procs. Haste is still a more desirable stat for Druid healers due to its consistency, its ability to effect all of our spells, and the fact that stacking enough of it allows us to take points out of Gift of the Earthmother. I chose to simply weight it as twice as valuable as crit. Now adding the overlapping values together we arrive at the following lootrank weightings,

Mp5 = 1
Intellect = .521
Spirit = .502
Spell Power = .8
Haste = .12
Crit = .056

Now, you can tweak these numbers a bit. Perhaps I've either downplayed or over emphasized the value of healing throughput, simply make spell power worth more or less and adjust the ranks accordingly. Maybe the average fight is much shorter than 8 minutes. Intellect then gets more weight as a mana regen stat. I could be completely off the mark when it comes to the haste vs crit debate.

 

ttyl

Very interesting numbers, thank you. Small error here (unless it was changed recently?):

Guiding Star + Ironmender
90 Stamina [36 (Mainhand) + 54 (Offhand)]
95 Intellect [48 (Mainhand) + 47 (Offhand)]
45 Spirit (Offhand)
85 Haste [49 (Mainhand) + 36 (Offhand)] (You had Guiding Star listed as 49 crit)
15 MP5 (Mainhand)
687 Spellpower [550 (Mainhand) + 74 (Offhand) + 63 (Enchant)]

This makes the difference:
+21 Stamina
+33 Intellect
+73 Spirit
+104 Crit
+14 Spellpower
-85 Haste
-15 MP5

Looks like the staff will be the best after you are haste soft-capped without the mace/offhand.

EDIT: Hmm, are you using an updated/different list of these items? The staff would be +100 Spirit after 2 Purified gems, I think? (Didn't update the differences in my post.)

 

• Playered

Gosh a 239 staff (hardmode Hodir 25) with two sockets is better than a 232 mainhand (normal Razorscale 25), 226 offhand combo with no sockets?

There are quite a lot of weapons missing from the loot tables and until people start killing Yogg/Algalon on live I doubt we will be able to give proper comparisons.

Comparing Guiding Star + Ironmender to The Lifebinder would be better as they are roughly equal (as offhands failed to be bumped up to the new weapon ilvl rule) in ilvl.

Using the figures above for MH/OH combo we get the following result for using the staff:
+30 Stamina
+26 Intellect
+35 Spirit
+35 Haste
-56 SP (63 vs 81 SP enchants)

Which brings you to the classic conclusion that MH/OH combo yields a significant upgrade in SP while the staff results in more raw stats. Nothing has changed from how it has always been with the exception of the new enchant making it a slightly smaller loss in SP.

 

Fugedabowdit

Wow, thanks for the great info. Just curious, do you assume any shammy buffs in this?

 

Allinone

Indirectly yes? I assumed full raid buffs, but since shaman totems don't scale and are a flat value, they are insignificant the the actual calculation. The only buff that actually gets factored into every calculation is Blessing of Kings, because it increases stats by 10%. All other buffs give a flat increase independant of gearing choices.

Example. Totem of Wrath will always give me 280 Spell Power and 137 Crit regardless of how much Spell Power I have. With Blessing of kings, if I have 50 Intellect, it gives me 5. If i have 1200 Intellect, it grants me 120. In that indirect way, I can control how much of a buff Blessing of Kings gives me.

 

• Playered

Do you play the same game as the rest of us?
... and increases the critical strike chance of all attacks by 3% against all enemies within 40 yards.

Regardless having stat values right now when the majority of people have not been able to assess the new content and means of healing with devalued mana regeneration is kind of silly so I would hold off going into the detailed mechanics of how you come up with lootrank values until some 3.1 time has passed.

 

Allinone

Sorry, took a slash and dash example from Paininabox's Resto Spreadsheet, where he lists Totem of wrath values of 280 SP and 137.718 crit. The error non withstanding, my point is still valid.

 

Paininabox

Ah damn, noted. This will be corrected in a future version.

I think, from what we know of 3.1, that Allinone's stat values are pretty solid, though I do agree with Playered that it's still fairly early to be making that decision. The only major problem with the scale is the method by which Allinone strings throughput values and regen values, as I can see. I don't directly disagree with the evaluation, but I question such an arbitrary method as .8 SP = 1 mp5. I think the scale is still good, but I'd like to make it known that, even more than usual stat weights, it is quite a rough estimate.

Level 80 Restoration Druid Spreadsheet here.
(v1.41)

 

badma

I would add using innervate and mana tide in calculations since they add some extra mp5_points to spirit and int.
According to my spreadsheet:
- innervate adds 0.18 mp5 to 1 spi and 0.08 mp5 to 1 int (glyphed)
- mana tide adds 0.11 mp5 to 1 int

ps: forgive me for my terrible english

 

Allinone

Good call. At least listing those values would be nice for people so they could add them. My napkin math is rough right now, but i got slightly lower values for innervate and significantly lower numbers for mana tide.

For 1300 Int/Spirit:
Glyphed Innervate:
Spirit = .15 mp5
Int = .075

Ungylphed
Spirit = .12 mp5
Int = .07 mp5

But as I said, this was napkin math. I'll go back and look at the actual numbers for innervate in a bit.

Mana Tide however I am fairly certain received to much weight. It is a totem that can give you up to 24% of your total mana back (28% if Glyphed), and it can be used every 5 minutes. If I recall this requires you to be in the shamans group and be within 30 yards of the totem. This will be one use on most fights, My values assume an 8 minute fight, so it is very possible that a shaman could drop this twice. However, for a single use.

Unglyphed

16.5 Mana Gained per point of Int.
24% Mana Returned (16.5 x .24)
3.96 mana per point.
8 Min fight
480 Seconds
96 5 second Intervals
.04125 mp5 per point of int gained in an 8 minute fight

Glyphed

16.5 Mana
28% Mana returned
4.62 Mana Per Point
8 Minute Fight
480 Seconds
96 5 Seconds Intervals
.04812 mp5 per point in Int gained in an 8 minute fight

This is my first try to attempt to calculate the benefit of mana tide, so perhaps I am missing something, but there is a huge gap between my .04125 and your .11 value. Even if used exactly every 5 minutes, I am only finding a value of .077 mp5 (glyphed) and .066 (Non Glyphed). This would assume a 10 minute fight. I supposed in a 6 minute fight this could be dropped twice...but i digress

Also, I made a rookie mistake when calculating the amount of Spell Power granted by Spirit. 1 Point of Spirit on gear is actually worth 1.265 spirit on your character sheet (due to Blessing of Kings and Living Spirit), so the .15 Spirit to Spell Power conversion should really be

.15 x 1.265 = .18975
then .8 x .18975 = .1518, instead of the .12 that I have listed above. I will make this correction in a later post.

I havent really devalued our mana regeneration stats much in this loot ranking compared to other lists that I have seen. While I do not trust the Resto Druid template that i had seen on lootrank, it valued it at a ratio near .78 SP to 1 mp5. I would like to develop a solid scale of throughput stats (comparing everything to 1 Spell Power) which would allow us easily change the weights at a later date. I'll agree that it is a bit early to develop that scale, but a man can dream.

(Edit) P.S. - My lootranking numbers could also be tweaked to show the 2% increase in Int due to a Meta gem such as an Ember Skyflare Diamond. I am mistakenly used the 2% in some calculations, but not all. I will also go through and correct this.