Restoration Itemization - Page 17

Zoltair · 01/16/09, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by puebloune

All the numbers you quote are accurate and verified in game. As for dropping living seed to get genesis, why not dropping Starlight Wrath to get Genesis? Starlight wrath is completely useless for a resto druid. Replenish aint very good either, you have some extra points to play with.

Make sure to read all the previous posts in order to benefits the most from this thread.

In regards to Starlight Wrath... that is what happens when you respec out of moonkin too fast. You make mistakes. That being the case.... Negate anything posted regarding Genesis. Lawl (Embarrassed of spec. Figures I'd f'up on a stupid respec before my first EJ post). And trust me... I read!

Zipporah · 01/16/09, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by Zoltair

I may be completely off base here. But it was my understanding that Haste from Buffs and Gear was derived from your spell cast time (or GCD) AFTER talents not in conjunction with talents.

It just depends which talents. CF doesn't reduce the casting time of your spells directly, it's a haste effect that's applied later. Now Starlight Wrath for example is different, that talent first reduces the casting time of Wrath and Starfire by 0,5 seconds. If you do the haste calculations on those spells, you would first need to deduct that 0.5s from your casting time and then go from there.

What they ment in that warlock spell quote by "talents" is not talents in general, they just mean you first need to deduct any casting time reduction talents before starting the haste math.

Kamphuijs · 01/18/09, 6:14 PM

Ive seen quite some Lootrank stats, and i made my own lootrank stats from the first post in this topic.

the mana regen intelect gives you and the mana regen spirit gives you from what i could read from the first post they would relate in the following way:

Intelect: 5.2
Spirit: 11.2

If intelect and spirit relate into that way, then MP5 should be valued as:

MP5: 10

Crit and Haste are hard to translate into Mana regen, so those stats are really adjustable to your playstyle, me i try to relate them the following way:

Haste: 0.5
Crit: 1

The reason for this is the proc from the Nature's Grace Talent which is really awesome when u need to spam nourish on a tank when big burst is incomming.
I rate the haste abit lower because you already have the Gift of the Earthmother talent and the Nature's splendor Which makes HoT rotations on multiple tanks ez mode compared to TBC in which u was stacking haste in order to HoT up multiple targets.

Then the last stat, Spellpower.

Spell power: 20

The reason i made this value so ridiculiously high is because i think its the best stat to go for as a resto druid. The more spellpower the harder your HoTs will tick, it scales insane imo.

As the topic name is: Restoration Itemisation i would suggest that the topic creater links some Lootrank links, or good calculations about how the Regen stats MP5, intelect and spirit interact, in the first post. So it will be alot easier for people who are just browsing the topics to look @ the bottomline of all the mathematics.

Cheers.

PS: the link to this lootrank: http://www.lootrank.com/wow/wr.asp?C....2&Ver=6&err=1

red · 01/18/09, 7:39 PM

Your Spirit regen value assumes the player is out of the FSR 100% of the time, which I think is probably a slight overestimation. Additionally I think your value for Spellpower is far, far too high, but I have no objective justification for that belief.

As pawn and lootrank serve essentially the same purpose, and operate the same way, you might consider taking a look at this thread: Pawn addon values for all specs

Playered · 01/18/09, 9:21 PM

Originally Posted by Kamphuijs

Ive seen quite some Lootrank stats, and i made my own lootrank stats from the first post in this topic.

the mana regen intelect gives you and the mana regen spirit gives you from what i could read from the first post they would relate in the following way:

Intelect: 5.2
Spirit: 11.2

If intelect and spirit relate into that way, then MP5 should be valued as:

MP5: 10

Crit and Haste are hard to translate into Mana regen, so those stats are really adjustable to your playstyle, me i try to relate them the following way:

Haste: 0.5
Crit: 1
/snip
Then the last stat, Spellpower.

Spell power: 20

The reason i made this value so ridiculiously high is because i think its the best stat to go for as a resto druid. The more spellpower the harder your HoTs will tick, it scales insane imo.

/snip

How you can logically have Int below Spi is odd, even assuming the 15% Spi->SP you would not really be able to justify it. 1 MP5 should be around the value of 3~ Spi and your value of SP.. well it's hard to really correctly value regen vs throughput so cannot really work out an ideal figure.

Last time I used Lootrank I believe it was something like:
Int 0.2 // Spi 0.15 // MP5 0.2 (I really do not like this stat..) // Haste 0.3 // Crit 0.2 // SP 1

I only briefly used this as a guideline though as I have specific values of Spi & Haste that I would like to end up with in current 'BiS' gear which taint the results slightly.. and honestly even at that level I think I value SP too low but it doesn't really matter that much as in almost every case the highest SP item is listed as the best.

The only items which I disagree with tend to be the Cloak, Ring & Chest but that is due to my self imposed Spi level which allows me 2~ slots without Spi, and my dislike for the wasted MP5 stat.

Rijndael · 01/19/09, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by Playered

How you can logically have Int below Spi is odd, even assuming the 15% Spi->SP you would not really be able to justify it. 1 MP5 should be around the value of 3~ Spi and your value of SP.. well it's hard to really correctly value regen vs throughput so cannot really work out an ideal figure.

Last time I used Lootrank I believe it was something like:
Int 0.2 // Spi 0.15 // MP5 0.2 (I really do not like this stat..) // Haste 0.3 // Crit 0.2 // SP 1

I only briefly used this as a guideline though as I have specific values of Spi & Haste that I would like to end up with in current 'BiS' gear which taint the results slightly.. and honestly even at that level I think I value SP too low but it doesn't really matter that much as in almost every case the highest SP item is listed as the best.

The only items which I disagree with tend to be the Cloak, Ring & Chest but that is due to my self imposed Spi level which allows me 2~ slots without Spi, and my dislike for the wasted MP5 stat.

I don't understand how you can say 1 MP5 should be the value of 3 Spi, and then value MP5 at 0.2 and Spi at 0.15 in the same breath. Druid healing gear tends to look like this: Sta, Int, Spi, Spellpower, [auxiliary stat]. The Auxiliary stat tends to be haste, crit or MP5. It is very easy to reach the haste softcap with a few pieces of best in slot gear -- beyond that point haste isn't very useful for many druid healing assignments. Crit really only helps in tank spamming situations (like if you heal one target on patchwerk), otherwise it is fairly useless I think (outside of tank spamming, the direct portion of regrowth + nourish account for maybe 5% of my healing).

This leaves MP5 which I think is the best auxiliary stat to have (but only if the gear also has spirit). MP5 works in situations where you actually need the mana -- where things have either gone wrong or you dropped a healer in favor of dps, and so have to spam constantly. In these situations where a healer is stressed MP5 is significantly stronger than spirit, which is our main stat, and certainly stronger than any auxiliary stat. As such I strongly value pieces like Sympathy robe from Sapphiron, or Sash of Solitude from Patchwerk.

Asona · 01/19/09, 4:13 AM

All 3 "auxiliary stats" are down to personal preference tbh - there are pros and cons for having each stat and I don't really think there is a hands-down BEST stat as such out of all 3 of them.
Furthermore, you won't be able to get 100% of your gear with your preferred auxiliary stat, without gimping out on spirit (most of the time).

Playered · 01/19/09, 6:21 AM

Originally Posted by Rijndael

I don't understand how you can say 1 MP5 should be the value of 3 Spi, and then value MP5 at 0.2 and Spi at 0.15 in the same breath. Druid healing gear tends to look like this: Sta, Int, Spi, Spellpower, [auxiliary stat]. The Auxiliary stat tends to be haste, crit or MP5. It is very each to reach the haste softcap with a few pieces of best in slot gear -- beyond that point haste isn't very useful for many druid healing assignments. Crit really only helps in tank spamming situations (like if you heal one target on patchwerk), otherwise it is fairly useless I think (outside of tank spamming, the direct portion of regrowth + nourish account for maybe 5% of my healing).

This leaves MP5 which I think is the best auxiliary stat to have (but only if the gear also has spirit). MP5 works in situations where you actually need the mana -- where things have either gone wrong or you dropped a healer in favor of dps, and so have to spam constantly. In these situations where a healer is stressed MP5 is significantly stronger than spirit, which is our main stat, and certainly stronger than any auxiliary stat. As such I strongly value pieces like Sympathy robe from Sapphiron, or Sash of Solitude from Patchwerk.

4 Spi is roughly 1 MP5 before OO5SR regeneration or Innervate purposes which is why it got lowered down to 3:1~ which could even be too high still considering it scales better on those two factors.
It is also worth noting that 1.9 Int = 1 MP5 before OO5SR regeneration (but including Innervate and all other sources of mana) which should at best go down to 1.75:1 but I am unable to verify that modified figure right now.

Haste has the bonus of freeing up talent points which has the higher chance to be useful come 3.1 when most classes should get some changes to their talents and such, right now it doesn't really matter so it's down to personal preference. We are softcapped on Haste but we can manage the exact level of that softcap by tweaking GoTEM and/or Celestial Focus.

Right now I weight MP5 below it's actual value because of the way itemization is, when we get to Sunwell style itemization with Sta, Int, Sp, SP, Haste and/or Crit, MP5 then I will treat it closer to its real value but right now I'ld rather take the other stats and as such have weakened its worth.

If I had said "this is the perfect Resto Druid lootrank" then sure I would be wrong but I'm rather sure I laced my comments with pointers to it being a personal guideline that is not absolute even for myself.

In terms of longevity the 'absolute' weighting for MP5, Int, Spi should be something like:
MP5 = 1
Int = 0.57~ (0.5-0.6)
Spi = 0.33~ (0.3-0.4)
Keep in mind that there is a balance between Int and Spi which is best to try and keep to in order to get the most out of both stats which is why I had a specific value of Spi to aim for in my gear that deviated me from the true values.

How you then weight the throughput stats like Haste, Crit and SP in relation to that is something which is not so easy to measure and as such I would suggest aiming for specific values of Haste and Crit while trying to always attain the highest SP possible.

Keep in mind that Haste will always be the superior aux stat until you hit the softcap which is why it has the potential to be more useful in future if there are more compelling ways to spend your GoTEM points beyond Natural Perfection.

The best in slot gear should be pretty obvious regardless of your feelings of MP5, Haste or Crit though with the exception of Helm (due to our 226 being underbudget), Chest, Cloak and Rings which come down to your value of Haste or Crit (and Spi) to determine which is superior.
Naturally 4T7 throws a spanner in the works but your best non set item would be [Hood of Rationality] (or [Headpiece of Reconciliation] when fixed) or [Leggings of Mortal Arrogance].

Rijndael · 01/19/09, 7:57 AM

Originally Posted by Asona

Furthermore, you won't be able to get 100% of your gear with your preferred auxiliary stat, without gimping out on spirit (most of the time).

That's true, a lot of best in slot gear for druids doesn't have MP5. That is, if it's a choice between Spirit alone or MP5 alone, the former is better. That said, generally if it's down to a piece with only Spirit or a piece that has a Spirit/MP5 split (with the same ilevel), the latter is generally far better in almost all situations due to the 'sublinear' way individual stats scale given ilevel.

Re: haste tweaking with GotEM: that's a good point on haste, although honestly I haven't found very compelling places to dump the points.

puebloune · 01/19/09, 5:58 PM

Originally Posted by Playered

I would attribute the difference between 0.7% and 2.0% due to either higher Regrowth usage, less raid healing/sniping or a mixture of both rather than a mild gain of 5% crit.

This is my healing breakdown for 2 hours of 3 drakes attempts last nite. My specc is 18/0/53 with 3 points in living Seed, 2 points in Gotem and 3 points in CF (you can check my armory for more details).

Lifebloom 27.2%
Rejuvenation 24.5%
Regrowth 22.3%
Wild Growth 15%
Healing Touch 3.2%
Nourish 2.4%
Swiftmend 2.3%
Living Seed 1.8
Forethougth Talisman 1%
Other stuff 0.3%

I guess less trash means less wild growth usage, usually my top 4 spells are all in the 20% and very close to each other. Although, I can see that living seed is bringing better numbers now then it use to be. An increase from 0.7-1% ish to 1.8%. Which is not too bad. I guess at the moment my optimal specc would be 17/0/54 with only 2 points in CF and 3 in Gotem. I think this 1 point would be more optimal with gotem to help out the insta cast.

Keeping an eye on living seed is something I recommand to everyone at the moment, this talent seems to be scaling quite well and fast with gear.

P.S. I had all the raid buff possible.

Paininabox · 01/20/09, 1:39 AM

Originally Posted by Rijndael

I don't understand how you can say 1 MP5 should be the value of 3 Spi, and then value MP5 at 0.2 and Spi at 0.15 in the same breath. Druid healing gear tends to look like this: Sta, Int, Spi, Spellpower, [auxiliary stat]. The Auxiliary stat tends to be haste, crit or MP5. It is very easy to reach the haste softcap with a few pieces of best in slot gear -- beyond that point haste isn't very useful for many druid healing assignments. Crit really only helps in tank spamming situations (like if you heal one target on patchwerk), otherwise it is fairly useless I think (outside of tank spamming, the direct portion of regrowth + nourish account for maybe 5% of my healing).

This leaves MP5 which I think is the best auxiliary stat to have (but only if the gear also has spirit). MP5 works in situations where you actually need the mana -- where things have either gone wrong or you dropped a healer in favor of dps, and so have to spam constantly. In these situations where a healer is stressed MP5 is significantly stronger than spirit, which is our main stat, and certainly stronger than any auxiliary stat. As such I strongly value pieces like Sympathy robe from Sapphiron, or Sash of Solitude from Patchwerk.

I wrote up a mathematical analysis article a while back on how to relate int, spirit, and mp5 in terms of regen. Playered is right that 1 mp5 ~ 3 spi. You can find the article here : Mana Regeneration Analysis.doc

emc · 01/21/09, 12:26 PM

First time posting, long time reading - Giansm did a wonderful job of capturing the best of the best gear available for restoration druids and I was hoping to find the same thing in this thread. Norfair started it off on the right track as well..

Has Norfair, Giansm, anyone from EJ, or Ensidia provided an update on the best in slot gear in the game now?

Including gear (head to toe), including polearms too, elixirs, flasks, food, spirit #s, int #s, mp5 #s, etc etc.

Naxx is on farm, Maly is on farm, OS3D is down; now it's time to prepare for Ulduar. Any help to make this happen is greatly appreciated.

Nitz · 01/21/09, 1:36 PM

Is [Headpiece of Reconciliation] fixed with this new patch ?

Playered · 01/21/09, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by Nitz

Is [Headpiece of Reconciliation] fixed with this new patch ?

No it is not, I'm guessing we should expect it to be changed for 3.1 (where it should actually matter) and not before.

bandophahita · 01/27/09, 10:20 AM

In terms of longevity the 'absolute' weighting for MP5, Int, Spi should be something like:
MP5 = 1
Int = 0.57~ (0.5-0.6)
Spi = 0.33~ (0.3-0.4)
Keep in mind that there is a balance between Int and Spi which is best to try and keep to in order to get the most out of both stats which is why I had a specific value of Spi to aim for in my gear that deviated me from the true values.

I've been desperately trying to 'catch-up' in terms of reading about min/maxing druids and healing in general before asking this, and if I've missed a post this is already mentioned, I apologize in advance.

I've always thought that spirit was far superior to mp5 for druids. Partially based on uninformed opinions from other players, and partially because it 'seemed' to work better for me.

After reading Paininabox's paper on spirit vs int vs mp5 calculations, I see this can depend on the current level of stats, etc. Because I use Pawn, I still strive for that magic value to weight each stat for the best healing I can dish out.

My question is this; does the weighting of spirit at ~.33 take into account the plus healing bonus from imp ToL? I always assumed you can't measure spirit simply on the merit of it's regen alone. But i've never known how to calculate the added benefit of healing to the pawn scale. (I blame my impatience with math equations)