Elitist Jerks Restoration Itemization

01/27/09, 11:09 AM   #256
Playered
Soda Popinski

Tauren Druid

Twisting Nether (EU)
 Originally Posted by bandophahita I've been desperately trying to 'catch-up' in terms of reading about min/maxing druids and healing in general before asking this, and if I've missed a post this is already mentioned, I apologize in advance. I've always thought that spirit was far superior to mp5 for druids. Partially based on uninformed opinions from other players, and partially because it 'seemed' to work better for me. After reading Paininabox's paper on spirit vs int vs mp5 calculations, I see this can depend on the current level of stats, etc. Because I use Pawn, I still strive for that magic value to weight each stat for the best healing I can dish out. My question is this; does the weighting of spirit at ~.33 take into account the plus healing bonus from imp ToL? I always assumed you can't measure spirit simply on the merit of it's regen alone. But i've never known how to calculate the added benefit of healing to the pawn scale. (I blame my impatience with math equations)
You need a certain amount of Spirit for Innervate which is one reason why MP5 cannot compete until a certain point, you also have FSR regeneration which depending on the fight and your playstyle ends up favouring Spirit (and to a lesser degree Int) further.

Spirit, MP5 and Int all change in value slightly depending on your current gear but honestly there is nothing that significant unless you suddenly go from 1000 Spirit 900 Int to 1000 Spirit 1400 Int. Considering you will generally gear up and keep a relative balance between the stats (ie +10% on both Spirit and Int) the weights don't really change much so for the most part you can assume a sembalance of stability between them.

Spirit at .33~ is ignoring anything beyond mana return, it is near impossible to compare throughput to longevity in a meaningful way.
For example in that case where 1/.57/.33 were the values for those stats, if SP = 5 then Spirit would end up being around .55~ (last time I checked, going on memory). The problem comes from SP, is SP really worth 5? it could be 10 or 15 and in those cases Spirit becomes superior to Int and even could end up beating MP5 on a 1:1 basis.
You are right in saying you cannot just ignore half of what a stat gives you but that case was clearly labeled as "In terms of longevity" as the second half of the stat is depending on your valuation of something else, of which there is no clear answer.

01/27/09, 3:36 PM   #257
bandophahita
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Kael'thas
 You are right in saying you cannot just ignore half of what a stat gives you but that case was clearly labeled as "In terms of longevity" as the second half of the stat is depending on your valuation of something else, of which there is no clear answer.
I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who found this to be true.

Do you suppose it could be calculated based on gear in a spreadsheet similar to the hunter dps worksheet?
Would the effort of such calculation be worth it?

Ultimately I want to plug values into Pawn to give quick itemization values, even if those number have to be adjusted periodically. But if that level of min/maxing isn't going to make any meaningful difference in terms of healing output then I won't bother.

Because I'm not big number cruncher, I always second my (and others) pawn scales.

01/27/09, 3:51 PM   #258
Playered
Soda Popinski

Tauren Druid

Twisting Nether (EU)
 Originally Posted by bandophahita I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who found this to be true. Do you suppose it could be calculated based on gear in a spreadsheet similar to the hunter dps worksheet? Would the effort of such calculation be worth it?
Before we had the option of using downranking in order to give us some means of comparison, right now it's like comparing effective health (avoidance and stamina) to threat for tanking.

01/27/09, 5:14 PM   #259
Paininabox
Piston Honda

Night Elf Druid

Runetotem
 Originally Posted by bandophahita I've been desperately trying to 'catch-up' in terms of reading about min/maxing druids and healing in general before asking this, and if I've missed a post this is already mentioned, I apologize in advance. I've always thought that spirit was far superior to mp5 for druids. Partially based on uninformed opinions from other players, and partially because it 'seemed' to work better for me. After reading Paininabox's paper on spirit vs int vs mp5 calculations, I see this can depend on the current level of stats, etc. Because I use Pawn, I still strive for that magic value to weight each stat for the best healing I can dish out. My question is this; does the weighting of spirit at ~.33 take into account the plus healing bonus from imp ToL? I always assumed you can't measure spirit simply on the merit of it's regen alone. But i've never known how to calculate the added benefit of healing to the pawn scale. (I blame my impatience with math equations)
Yes, there is no convenient or meaningful mathematical way to figure in IToL into spirit's regen capability. My best advice is that if you find two items close in value on the mana regen scale, then pick the one with higher spirit. However, also keep in mind that spirit is worth only 15% of one point of SP, so the benefit is small enough to make it somewhat negligible, in my opinion.

Level 80 Restoration Druid Spreadsheet here.
(v1.41)

01/27/09, 8:14 PM   #260
druicifer
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Thrall
 Originally Posted by Playered Before we had the option of using downranking in order to give us some means of comparison, right now it's like comparing effective health (avoidance and stamina) to threat for tanking.
Effective health is mitigation and stamina

01/27/09, 8:19 PM   #261
druicifer
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Thrall
 Originally Posted by bandophahita I've been desperately trying to 'catch-up' in terms of reading about min/maxing druids and healing in general before asking this, and if I've missed a post this is already mentioned, I apologize in advance. I've always thought that spirit was far superior to mp5 for druids. Partially based on uninformed opinions from other players, and partially because it 'seemed' to work better for me. After reading Paininabox's paper on spirit vs int vs mp5 calculations, I see this can depend on the current level of stats, etc. Because I use Pawn, I still strive for that magic value to weight each stat for the best healing I can dish out. My question is this; does the weighting of spirit at ~.33 take into account the plus healing bonus from imp ToL? I always assumed you can't measure spirit simply on the merit of it's regen alone. But i've never known how to calculate the added benefit of healing to the pawn scale. (I blame my impatience with math equations)
I'm not sure of the exact values of spirit per mp5 with intensity talent, but its pretty close to 2.5 spirit = 1mp5.

2.5 spirit = 1mp5 is equal in terms of itemization too. So only AFTER you're able to restore your entire mana bar with spirit, does mp5 become equal. This is also assuming you have ~ 1000 int and ~ 1100 + spirit raid buffed.

When comparing two pieces of gear, you can easily calculate the extra SP you get from the spirit on it. After you've done that, add it on to the existing SP (mentally) on the item, and forget about IToL. Then you can do the work of deducing which piece is superior, based on SP and regen. I think that in the very near future, we'll be seeing spirit outscale mp5 for resto druids, in regen and because of IToL.

 01/28/09, 6:27 PM #262 Arkonos Glass Joe     Arkonos Night Elf Druid   Das Syndikat (EU) First of all: Thank you all I started raiding and doing heros with WotLK and you're helping me a lot. So, since I'm quite new my questions are probably newbish too, srr about that 1.To provide a stat ranking (for Pawn eg) can't we just equipp a druid with all BiS's and look at his stats? this way we wouldn't have the optimal stats, but the best accessible. I doubt this works because if it would, you guys would already have done that. 2.I used Paininabox's Resto Spreadsheet v1.21L to create a stat weight but thats split into regen and healing power I would go for HP untill I go oom and then go back to regen etc but if I'm going oom depends on my role and on the other healers, so that isn't a very good option is there a better way to wight between regen and HP? I'm nax10/25, badgeds and 2-3 hero pieces equipped and will only do 10nax for the next weeks so it's not really important to have those values for me, I'm just interested in numbers and calculations. While we don't have a way to feed Pawn with exact numbers, I recommend the Addon BonusScanner (you have to be in Tree form to have the addon calculate exactly) thanks for spending time reading my thoughts Ps: If someone is bored and could tell me via pm witch stat I'm lacking most at the time (int I assume), I'd be very grateful. Last edited by Arkonos : 01/28/09 at 6:52 PM.
 01/28/09, 10:39 PM #264 Lightflower Von Kaiser   Songflower Tauren Druid   Dath'Remar Firstly, let me say that you both are geared well enough to be fine at healing any of the current content. Both of you seem to have foregone some +SP for regen stats (whether it is spirit or MP5) and this perhaps is not the best thing since running OOM really isn't happening in current content. With that in mind, that is why many Druids like the Life Binder's Locket since, socketed correctly, it is the highest +SP neck piece available. So my advice is to find the highest +SP item and look at equipping as many of those as possible while ensuring that your Innervate always fills your mana bar, you are at or above the haste soft cap and you get above 450 MP5 while casting when fully raid buffed. So you may want to look at some of the higher +SP rings and the Spaulders of Catatonia - your weapon choices are fine, I'm after the Torch myself but it never drops
01/28/09, 11:00 PM   #265
Devinestorm
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
 Originally Posted by Lightflower Firstly, let me say that you both are geared well enough to be fine at healing any of the current content. Both of you seem to have foregone some +SP for regen stats (whether it is spirit or MP5) and this perhaps is not the best thing since running OOM really isn't happening in current content. With that in mind, that is why many Druids like the Life Binder's Locket since, socketed correctly, it is the highest +SP neck piece available. So my advice is to find the highest +SP item and look at equipping as many of those as possible while ensuring that your Innervate always fills your mana bar, you are at or above the haste soft cap and you get above 450 MP5 while casting when fully raid buffed. So you may want to look at some of the higher +SP rings and the Spaulders of Catatonia - your weapon choices are fine, I'm after the Torch myself but it never drops
A few things then.

- Haste soft cap is 200 i beleive?
- Should i regem my blue spirit gems for Spellpower?
- Raid Buffed im just over 660 MP5 and 1600 while not casting (trinket procs ontop ofc)
- I never go OOM

Last edited by Devinestorm : 01/28/09 at 11:06 PM.

01/28/09, 11:39 PM   #266
Playered
Soda Popinski

Tauren Druid

Twisting Nether (EU)
 Originally Posted by Devinestorm A few things then. - Haste soft cap is 200 i beleive? - Should i regem my blue spirit gems for Spellpower? - Raid Buffed im just over 660 MP5 and 1600 while not casting (trinket procs ontop ofc) - I never go OOM
Never socket a 16 Spirit gem (go Purified if you must) and you did a mistake picking the Greatness (Spirit, not Int) trinket but there is not much you can do about that.

The necks you have a choice of either [Life-Binder's Locket] or [Necklace of the Glittering Chamber] where the former is the highest SP neck and also gives you 22 more Intellect which goes a long way to covering up the loss of 38 Spirit and combine that with the dirty MP5 and it ends up a straight up superior item.

There is nothing really 'wrong' with your spec either, you might want to change your bracers to the Instructor ones.
As to T7.5 helm I wouldn't bother with it and would suggest [Cowl of Vanity] or [Hood of Rationality] if no cloth user wants, obviously aim for [Headpiece of Reconciliation] when it drops but the other two are the same or better if no cloth user needs.

01/29/09, 7:21 AM   #267
Norfair
Piston Honda

Night Elf Druid

Grim Batol (EU)
 Originally Posted by Playered Never socket a 16 Spirit gem (go Purified if you must) and you did a mistake picking the Greatness (Spirit, not Int) trinket but there is not much you can do about that. The necks you have a choice of either [Life-Binder's Locket] or [Necklace of the Glittering Chamber] where the former is the highest SP neck and also gives you 22 more Intellect which goes a long way to covering up the loss of 38 Spirit and combine that with the dirty MP5 and it ends up a straight up superior item. There is nothing really 'wrong' with your spec either, you might want to change your bracers to the Instructor ones. As to T7.5 helm I wouldn't bother with it and would suggest [Cowl of Vanity] or [Hood of Rationality] if no cloth user wants, obviously aim for [Headpiece of Reconciliation] when it drops but the other two are the same or better if no cloth user needs.
Why not bother with T7.5? I find it a pretty good itemized helm tbh. It's same as the Hood of Rationality, but instead of haste (which you can easily get enough of) you get a nice bunch of mp5. It's all personal preference of course, but I wouldn't say it's a bad helm. On top of it you can get the 4-set bonus which is a nice plus (and in the future it will be easier to maintain 2-set bonus).

Also, as for maces, the [Ice Spire Scepter] is a nice one to pick up, it's the same as the Impossible Dream but has haste instead of crit and is a lot easier to get as well, since it drops in 10-man Malygos.

 01/29/09, 9:12 AM #268 Pownstaronfizz Glass Joe   Pownstar Night Elf Druid   Fizzcrank deleted, thought the post would look better. Last edited by Pownstaronfizz : 01/30/09 at 8:25 AM.
01/29/09, 10:23 AM   #269
Devinestorm
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
 Originally Posted by Pownstaronfizz It's a bit off-topic, but it's always nice to see everyone's preferences: [Runed Dragon's Eye] or [Sparkling Dragon's Eye] Enchants: [Item not found!]vs. [Item not found!] vs. [Item not found!] [Enchant Chest - Powerful Stats] vs. [Enchant Chest - Greater Mana Restoration] vs. [Enchant Chest - Major Spirit] [Enchant Cloak - Wisdom] vs. [Enchant Cloak - Greater Speed] [Enchant Weapon - Mighty Spellpower] vs. [Enchant Weapon - Exceptional Spirit] [Enchant Boots - Greater Spirit] vs. [Enchant Boots - Greater Vitality] Gear: Haste > Crit or Crit > Haste? How much are you willing to sacrifice for Spirit on a item?
Cloak -- >[Enchant Cloak - Wisdom] This is my preference as 23 hast is on other gear and 10 sopirit is free effectivly as this is the only back enchant that offers this. The threat reduction means you can drop 1 point out of Subtley and put it in Tranquil spirit; this is my thinking.
Feet ---> Take the 18 spirit imo as its more sueful to a druid than vitality. You can get your MP5 up if needed by getting a ring/back with raw MP5 on it.
Weapon ---> Spell power for me but id say it depends on the quality of your gear and how much spirit you already have, if you are short then cap spirit otherwise stack spell power.
Bracers ---> Spell power
Chest ---> Use to be 15 spirit as the resto must have chest enchant although i would go for 10 styats now as you get 10 spirit, and 10 intel which has more value than just 15 spirit. I personally wouldnt consider any others tbh.

 Originally Posted by Playered Never socket a 16 Spirit gem (go Purified if you must) and you did a mistake picking the Greatness (Spirit, not Int) trinket but there is not much you can do about that.
Ive replaced my 16 spirit gems for purple 9 spell power and 8 spirit gems for the loss of 12 MP5 and 45 regen although i have gained 46 spell power so ill run with this and see how it goes,

I cant imagine why 12 mp5 would make me go OOM so thanks for the feed back and assistance.

One questioned un-answered is WYH do many resto druids gem for MP5 on my server>? Makes no sence to me!!

Last edited by Aldriana : 01/29/09 at 6:28 PM.

 01/30/09, 8:11 AM #270 Zoltair Von Kaiser   Zoltair Night Elf Druid   Eonar From a prior conversation on the PvE Resto Healing Thread I posted the following 3 posts regarding the current Haste with GotEM. Ideally they should have been posted in this thread. http://elitistjerks.com/1079250-post270.html http://elitistjerks.com/1079687-post272.html http://elitistjerks.com/1080740-post276.html <- Uliko Last edited by Zoltair : 01/30/09 at 11:13 AM.

 Elitist Jerks Restoration Itemization