the shield itself includes overhealing once the Blessing is active
I'm a little confused on this. Does this mean there is a server side mechanic, of some sort, to track hots that are over healing once the weapon procs? I am under the impression that hots don't tick if the target is at 100%. If the target is at 95% and your hot brings them to 100% with some over heal, then that shield is applied, right?
The nice thing about being a pessimistic, is that you're constantly proven right, or pleasantly surprised.
1) If you are lucky enough to have two hammers in your group, then they will both contribute to the same bubble.
2) It should work as you would expect with PW:Shield and similar effects. Specifically, the damage should work through one shield and then the other. I don't know off the top of my head which one is used first. Sometimes we have edge cases with multiple absorbs like this that we will need to solve as they arise. (To be clear, PW:Shield will not proc the blessing or the bubble though, because it does not heal.)
3) If you have the blessing (i.e. you caused healing and the proc occured) then overhealing will count towards the bubble. Hots that tick on a target will still contribute to the bubble. You can also choose to switch to a direct heal if you don't have enough GCDs available to get all of your hots up before the blessing fades. The confusing part here is that hots that don't heal won't cause the blessing (we didn't want you fishing for the bubble before a pull by constantly healing the tank, though I suppose you could if your tank was injured). But once the blessing is active, then all of your healing spells will contribute to the bubble even if they do no actual healing.
We'll leave it to you guys to theorycraft out if you think the hammer is marginally better for one class than another. Some players were speculating before this announcement that the bubble only applied to one spell, which would definitely favor Holy Light. We implemented it the way we did to make sure the other healing classes could still get juicy bubbles while the blessing was active (which is 15 sec).
Using this formula, I compute that the proc will have 27% uptime assuming an average 1.1 seconds between casts. Thus 27% of the time healing is increased by 15%, or an average ~4% increase in overall healing. Who cares about the stats, that's a huge upgrade.
This is indeed an awesome increase, but unless I'm reading the information wrong it seems that this would have an even greater up time for druids (right up to the 32-33%) depending on how many HoTs you have ticking at the time the ICD is up.
I read it as any heal that isn't 100% overheal will have a 10% chance to proc the buff and that it procs off of HoTs. Just having a WG up and ticking on 6 targets almost guarantees a proc within a few seconds. Add in a compliment of HoTs on a tank or Rejuvs ticking all over the raid and you're talking about 10+ chances to proc it per second. The only thing that could compete with that is JoL.
I also suspect the proc may have great synergy with the huge bloom of a lifebloom triple stack.
(To be clear, PW:Shield will not proc the blessing or the bubble though, because it does not heal.)
Ok, so it's horrible for Disc Priests?
I still think it would be best in the hands of a Holy Paladin... How many bosses could a tank consistently benefit from a 8sec 10k shield versus how many bosses could a raid benefit from a 8sec 2k+ shield (with ~1 ppm)?
Does anyone have a list of BiS Leather pieces from all current content?
There is one a few pages back, but it also includes Cloth, which is sometimes hard to get over a DPS or Priest.
I still think it would be best in the hands of a Holy Paladin... How many bosses could a tank consistently benefit from a 8sec 10k shield versus how many bosses could a raid benefit from a 8sec 2k+ shield (with ~1 ppm)?
One could counter with the fact that most hard encounters challenge healers with huge raid damage combined with heavy tank damage. Thus, numerous shields across the raid are indeed beneficial. This argument is really just a mirror argument of the paladin vs. druid vs. shaman vs. priest^2 healer debate. Everyone has something they do better and thus in those situations the weapon would be better in the hands of that healer. Hence, there is really no cut-and-dry "X gets it" when X doesn't necessarily have the mechanics to be effective in all encounters.
I'd also like to point out that paladins aren't going to be putting out a 10k shield unless they cast 3 critting HL's and the tank never gets hit in the meantime. The paladin is more likely to put out a ~2.25k shield every HL cast.
I still say just give it to your best/most dedicated healer. I think it's pretty certain that the proc is at least not trash for resto druids, if not excellent depending on how it handles full overheal hot ticks. Barring disc priests (they got ripped off), I believe the delta between the healers using this mace is small enough that larger variables, like fight mechanics and skill, will outweigh it.
I'm pretty sure a resto druid MT healing will put up a much larger shield than holy pala. Assuming rejuv+regrowth hot + 3lb stack + wg + nourish spam (glyphed that is) as soon as the bonus procs, I really doubt any holy pala can compete with that when hot overhealing also count towards the shield, so the amount of *shielded* per second should be higher.
On a raid healing I'd say holy priests and resto shammies will be a bit ahead, but not far away. Although druids can gain a semi-ohsnap aoe cd with this - tranqulity.
Oh and obviously nobody can compete with druids uptime of the bonus.
All in all it's an okay mace, I can definately see it benefitting my healing, but not something I'd go crazy over.
I believe the delta between the healers using this mace is small enough that larger variables, like fight mechanics and skill, will outweigh it.
Let's think about the proc in each encounter:
Razorscale Phase 1: Sporadic and slow raid damage, unlikely to benefit raid healing. Would be a small to zero increase in tank healing.
Phase 2: Large benefit to tank healing.
Ignis: Small chance to benefit raid healing during Flame Jet ticks. Large benefit to tank/slag pot healing.
XT: Good for tank healing. Amazing benefit to raid healing (even more amazing benefit to raid healing on hard mode).
Kologarn: Large benefit to tank/stone grip healing. Random raid damage, useful against Arm Sweep.
Iron Council: Very large benefit to tank healing on all three modes. Inconsistent, non-threatening (if people move when they're supposed to) raid damage on easy/medium mode. Would be good on hard mode.
Auriaya: Large benefit to tank healing. Consistent raid damage (unless this is interruptable? I dont remember), would be good here.
Hodir: Large benefit to tank healing. Inconsistent raid damage. During Frozen Blows, would be amazing for both tank and raid healing (if you were lucky enough to get the proc during it).
Thorim: Great for arena and gauntlet event healing. When Thorim jumps down, it would be a very large benefit to tank healing and inconsistent raid damage (how is raid damage on hard mode 25?).
Freya: Consistent tank damage (heavy tank damage in hard mode). Low, random raid damage.
Mimiron P1: Very large benefit to tank healing. 0 to raid healing.
P2: Amazing benefit to raid healing.
P3: Decent benefit to tank healing. 0 to raid healing.
P4: ~Equal benefit to tank and raid healing.
Vezax: Large benefit to tank healing, inconsistent raid damage. Sounds like it would be very nice for raid healing in hard mode?
Yogg P1: Decent benefit to tank healing.
P2: Random damage, low benefit. Would be a nice proc in the brain room?
P3: Consistent tank damage, inconsistent raid damage.
Algalon: Sounds like a heavy tank damage/movement fight?
Theoretically, like you calculated, the mace would be an overall increase for any healing spec. But, if the shield is not used, should that proc still count as an "increase"? It seems to me the only fights you could guarantee a raid healer's proc and 8 second shield will be used are: XT, hard mode Iron Council, Kologarn, Auriaya, P2/P4 Mimiron, and hard mode Vezax? Out of those, Kologarn and Auriaya aren't very hard and their raid damage isn't a challenge. Compare that list to fights that the proc and shield will always be a benefit for tank healing.
I'm a little confused on this. Does this mean there is a server side mechanic, of some sort, to track hots that are over healing once the weapon procs? I am under the impression that hots don't tick if the target is at 100%. If the target is at 95% and your hot brings them to 100% with some over heal, then that shield is applied, right?
Revitalize can already proc despite the target of a Rejuv or WG being at full health, even if the actual Rejuv or WG doesn't actually tick. I suspect the same sort of mechanics will be used here to let overhealing HoTs contribute to the shield.
Theoretically, like you calculated, the mace would be an overall increase for any healing spec. But, if the shield is not used, should that proc still count as an "increase"? It seems to me the only fights you could guarantee a raid healer's proc and 8 second shield will be used are: XT, hard mode Iron Council, Kologarn, Auriaya, P2/P4 Mimiron, and hard mode Vezax? Out of those, Kologarn and Auriaya aren't very hard and their raid damage isn't a challenge. Compare that list to fights that the proc and shield will always be a benefit for tank healing.
The raid healing benefits are kind of dependent on the buff uptime, since if the uptime is less than something like 30% it's going to be rare enough that you can't really count on it to proc at a specific time. If there is an ICD then for fights like Kologarn and others where raid damage comes in large bursts to the whole raid, it's going to be quite frankly entirely dependent on how the ICDs (and the following procs) sync up with the bursts.
Not saying that it's useless for raid healing - I'm sure it will be nice enough to have. Also, in case of tank healing it's pretty much always good regardless of the encounter (of course it will be stronger in some encounters than the others) but if you could keep the tank up before you got the mace, this isn't going to change that much. On the other hand with raid healing where the damage is a lot more incidental this could be actually really nice simply because if someone gets low and you hit him with a decent-sized heal and get a proc and a shield on them at the same time, that's where it becomes priceless.
I have skimmed through this thread and read many pages (mostly the post 3.1 date). I am struggling with whether the 4pc t7.5 vs. t8.0 gear sets. The casual 25 man guild I belong to imploded once we hit Ulduar and have moved into a new guild focusing on 10 man progression (hard modes as permitted). I do all the gear research for my wife as she just plays the toon and doesn't bother with the min\max of gear. She has always been a MT healer and spreads HoT's around when time permits. Looking at the comparision the stats alone look like it would be an upgrade for her. It is the set bonus that has me questioning the pro's & cons.
As more hard mode loot has been discovered I had been sifting through it trying to determine my personal best in slots drops along with drops that are normal attainable drops that are worthwhile secondary best in slots to use during progression. For many people, myself included, some of the best in slots will be most likely be unattainable for long periods of time or in the case of cloth items may take some extended waiting depending how loot is done. My list expands off Norfair's basic layout and uses the same reasoning that different players have different tastes in gearing.
HH = Heroic Hardmode
NH = Normal Hardmode
BiS = Best in slot based off spellpower (Some may be off slightly depending on kings/tree/gemming etc.)
P = Personal BiS choice, yours will probably vary. Initially I chose to drop the T8 gloves simply because of the larger amount of choices (and haste gloves dropping normally off Vezax) but will probably reevaluate once more hard mode drops are available to me.
Also noted are Cloth and Crafted drops as the availability of those can vary.
Items are generally ranked by category from best -> good.
I have skimmed through this thread and read many pages (mostly the post 3.1 date). I am struggling with whether the 4pc t7.5 vs. t8.0 gear sets.
The value of the Tier bonuses will vary quite a bit depending on your role and how your total healing output is distributed across each of your spells.
Here are the values I use with my own gear, based on some rough napkin math on generic archetypes:
Tier Bonus
Tank Healing
Raid Healing
10% Lifebloom
0% Lifebloom
35% Nourish
15% Nourish
25% Rejuv
45% Rejuv
5% Swiftmend
5% Swiftmend
T7 2pc
27
0
Saves 49 mana/cast, assume 1 cast/9sec
T7 4pc
87
37
Assume 2 hots on target, unglyphed (+20% vs +30% bonus healing)
Nourish Glyph
105
45
Assume 2 hots on target, no T7 4pc (+20% vs +32% bonus healing)
These values assume approx. 3000 Spellpower fully raid buffed, and are calibrated to values of 1 for both Spellpower and Mp5. If you use these numbers with a LootRank profile, just multiply the score of the T7 2pc by your value for Mp5, and the value of the rest by your value for Spellpower. The Nourish Glyph is included simply for contrast with the T7 4pc.
Even if you're primarily a MT healer, it won't take too many upgrades to surpass your old T7 bonus. I'm still using my T7 4pc, but none of the upgrades I've picked up so far have been T8. I wouldn't break up the T7 4pc for a single piece of T8, but I probably wouldn't hesitate if I had 2-3 pieces of T8. The T8 4pc makes it a given.
I'm pretty sure a resto druid MT healing will put up a much larger shield than holy pala. Assuming rejuv+regrowth hot + 3lb stack + wg + nourish spam (glyphed that is) as soon as the bonus procs, I really doubt any holy pala can compete with that when hot overhealing also count towards the shield, so the amount of *shielded* per second should be higher.
On a raid healing I'd say holy priests and resto shammies will be a bit ahead, but not far away. Although druids can gain a semi-ohsnap aoe cd with this - tranqulity.
Oh and obviously nobody can compete with druids uptime of the bonus.
All in all it's an okay mace, I can definately see it benefitting my healing, but not something I'd go crazy over.
I just want to correct you on a few things, the hots only proc the shield when they heal. From blue post "If it helps to explain it, the blessing is triggered by healing being done." that means no over-healing. So when they are ticking off on someone they will proc the shield (15% chance) but not when they are not ticking, it will do nothing.
Also this is a personal thing, but i would never stack lifebloom up over 1 since the mana cost is such a high amount, and stacking LB higher will not help your nourish spamming.
I just want to correct you on a few things, the hots only proc the shield when they heal. From blue post "If it helps to explain it, the blessing is triggered by healing being done." that means no over-healing. So when they are ticking off on someone they will proc the shield (15% chance) but not when they are not ticking, it will do nothing.
I think you're confusing a few things here. The blue post you quoted makes a distinction between the blessing and the "bubbles" (shields) it creates. Your hots only proc the blessing (ie the 15 second buff you get on yourself which allows your heals to shield people) when they heal actual damage. Once you have the 15 second blessing buff on yourself however, all your heals - including full overheals, which also includes HoTs "ticking" on a target who is at full health (which don't even show up in the combatlog) - will shield your target.
The 4pc bonus is great, despite being a letdown mechanically (no talent, no crit, no glyph). My parses show it to be about 7-10% of my total healing. The biggest novelty of it in my opinion is that it helps bridge the gap on fights where pre-hotting isn't always possible or feasible, and where retroactive healing on random raid damage is important. It feels right at home for Ulduar.
Goomp that looks like a good list, you might wanna update the BIS weapon to this guy: Constellus
Last edited by goodolarchie : 05/06/09 at 10:17 AM.
1. The Blessing is not retroactive. Already ticking HoTs when the Blessing procs will not apply shields to their targets.
The way this works is that when the proc happens (which is a 10% chance whenever a hot or direct spell heals, with a 45 sec internal cooldown) you gain a buff (the Blessing) on yourself. Now all of your heals for the next 15 sec cause an 8 sec damage shield. The shield stacks with itself. It includes healing done by subsequent ticks of existing hots on the target. Note that the spell has to actually heal, so hots ticking on a fully-healed target cannot cause the proc. However the shield is based on the size of the heal itself, not the amount healed – i.e. 100% overhealing will not proc the Blessing on the healer, but the shield itself includes overhealing once the Blessing is active. The shield can grow to a maximum size of 20,000 damage absorbed.
The nice thing about being a pessimistic, is that you're constantly proven right, or pleasantly surprised.
Too bad this bonus is not working with the reju glyph.
It doesn't work with the glyph? Meaning my swiftmend will eat my rejuv?
Also, since we now see Constellus (1H-Mace - Spell MP5) dropped from Hodir in Hard Mode. Is it possible this might be BIS with the Ironmender?
Constellus and Ironmender = 108 Stam 102 int 45 Spi 19 mp5 661 spwr 36 haste 29 crit 1 blue gem slot with 5 spwr bonus.
Staff of Endless Winter = ......111 Stam 128 Int 84 Spi...........587 Spwr ........... 104 Crit 2 blue gem slot with 9 spwr bonus.
Are the losses worth it though? Im inclined to think not. but that is A LOT of Spwr.
It doesn't work with the glyph? Meaning my swiftmend will eat my rejuv?
Also, since we now see Constellus (1H-Mace - Spell MP5) dropped from Hodir in Hard Mode. Is it possible this might be BIS with the Ironmender?
Constellus and Ironmender = 108 Stam 102 int 45 Spi 19 mp5 661 spwr 36 haste 29 crit 1 blue gem slot with 5 spwr bonus.
Staff of Endless Winter = ......111 Stam 128 Int 84 Spi...........587 Spwr ........... 104 Crit 2 blue gem slot with 9 spwr bonus.
Are the losses worth it though? Im inclined to think not. but that is A LOT of Spwr.
It's 43 difference, but the spirit is good for about 8 spellpower too. In the end 35 spellpower and 36 haste gain with the 1h/oh combo versus 75 crit and a bit more mana regen (think 5-10 mp5?). I prefer the mainhand/offhand combo then.
05/04/09, 2:20 PM
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