So you're saying if you decide need another 60mp5 to be comfortable on hard mode Thorim or Freya or XT, it's better to swap flask/food and sacrifice 171 spellpower than swap meta and sacrifice 25? That doesn't make any sense.
No. I'm not. My original comments were about gear valuation. Read my previous post.
No. I'm not. My original comments were about gear valuation. Read my previous post.
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
I agree, I think we're talking past each other to an extent. The way it sounds, insightful is almost always BIS, whether you're using it to free up other options for using throughput items or using it because you actually need the MP5. Let's see how long it is before it's nerfed since 60-100mp5 on one gem is ridiculous, even for a meta. My original question was about the stat weights in the post(s) above. And how it seemed odd to value MP5 above spell power. I didn't mean to imply an order in swapping things out in the previous post. Simply to indicate that those swaps were always going to provide a greater benefit than choosing different gear altogether since the regen gains between items on the top end are comparatively small.
Ah, ok. I have to admit to skipping the stat weight discussion! I doubt Insightful will get nerfed - it's a straight up double of the value of the TBC Insightful, which is the treatment most metas got. The decision between the TBC spellpower (+threat reduction, woohoo) meta vs. Insightful was similarly one-sided.
I am rather confused. Recently I was using Rawr to compare gear for different specs. I was rather surprised that for both specs, one being single target focus and the other being hot raid healing, it said that Int was by far the most important stat I needed. It would gem yellows with the Brilliant Autumns Glow, reds with Luminous Monarch Topaz, and blues with Seer's Forest Emerald, 8 Int and 8 Spirit. Now I have always gemmed to maximize spellpower, using Runed for red, Luminous for yellow and Purified for blues. Is mana really that much of an issue or am I missing something? Are you suppose to have over 1000 Int before worrying about the other stats? I mean I understand that int increases your mana regen through Replenishment, but I had always seen and done better gears/gemming for max Spellpower.
If I cast Rejuvenation each second for 3 minutes (180 times) with a 1 sec GCD and zero latency (Not possible) and EVERY tick landed a heal with a co-efficiency of 45.125% per tick at 5 ticks a spell that 25SP would improve my healing by 9,900 HP.
25SP*.45125 coeff*5 ticks = 55SP per full running rejuv.
55SPx180 casts=9,900 Healing points
OR
If it was possible to obtain non-stop Nourish casts for 3 minutes at 100% NG uptime (raid buffs, 400 Haste Rating, CF) and receive 1 second Nourishes for 3 min (180 seconds) and never over heal (Not possible), it would increase my total HP for that 3 minutes by 2,970HP.
25SP*.66 coeff*180 casts= 2,970HP
Please keep in mind that these numbers are so bloated since none of the above is even possible. Also, what are the chances that the extra 16HP per Nourish or extra 55 per Rejuv (If all ticks are occurring) are difference makers?
Next…. The IED, chance to proc 600 mana.
Assuming the IED procs once every 45 seconds (this is the average for me, not a bloated number) in the same 3 minute fight it will return 2,400 mana.
2,400 mana equals 3 more Nourishes at avg land value of 5k each = 15,000 HP at a time when you would most likely need it, or 6 more Rujev’s on raid members (Using the same crazy assumptions above thats a possible return of 60,000HP (2k tick * 5 ticks * 6 casts=60,000).
I used to be the hard headed person that said, “It’s not possible to run out of mana so why the hell would I ever gem something that gives me more mana over Spell Power”, but let’s be realistic. It is possible to run tight on mana, especially in hard modes, and there are times when conserving is not a viable option. I think your raid would prefer you to be able to pick up the slack and keep going in those learning experiences when maybe other healers die, or you are Brez’ing, and able to make a raid changing event rather then just get 16HP more or 25SP more on a cast that will more time then not over heal at least a tad. Obviously Spell Power adds up and together can make a difference, but to exchange only 25 of it for 600mana every 45 seconds just seems a bit foolish to me.
Actually, assuming every raid haste buff up and CF and NG uptime of 50%, it caps out at 730 haste. Without CF, 855 haste. Without Imp moonkin aura, 978. Without any raid buffs/NG, it's 1634. So, I'd say in more realistic circumstances where raids don't have perfect composition and getting haste that high is unlikely, the chances of haste-capping nourish are slim. I've found that even assuming no overheal on LS, crit still isn't worth more than haste assuming your spell distribution doesn't heavily lean on crittable heals.
I find the value of 855 haste without CF to be highly unlikely. I currently have 464 haste rating and have 1.02sec cast when NG has proc'd. I honestly don't see myself getting another 390 haste and not going sub-1s (I don't have CF). Is there any chance you could show me how you worked out the number 855? I simply took the percent haste required to get 1sec GCD with 0/5 GotEM and took the 20% from Nature's Grace away (I removed an extra 0.1%, as I think it's better to be below hard haste cap than just above), then converted to haste rating to get 609.
As for the chances of haste-capping Nourish. I know when I'm chain-casting (mostly Mimiron p1) I have every conceivable buff going to get my Nourish as close to 1sec as possible, I hope everyone else does.
I am rather confused. Recently I was using Rawr to compare gear for different specs. I was rather surprised that for both specs, one being single target focus and the other being hot raid healing, it said that Int was by far the most important stat I needed.
Rawr's tree model is very poor. Continue doing what you're doing; don't change your gems around according to what it recommends.
I find the value of 855 haste without CF to be highly unlikely. I currently have 464 haste rating and have 1.02sec cast when NG has proc'd. I honestly don't see myself getting another 390 haste and not going sub-1s (I don't have CF). Is there any chance you could show me how you worked out the number 855? I simply took the percent haste required to get 1sec GCD with 0/5 GotEM and took the 20% from Nature's Grace away (I removed an extra 0.1%, as I think it's better to be below hard haste cap than just above), then converted to haste rating to get 609.
As for the chances of haste-capping Nourish. I know when I'm chain-casting (mostly Mimiron p1) I have every conceivable buff going to get my Nourish as close to 1sec as possible, I hope everyone else does.
Notice that for nature's grace I assumed 50% uptime of the buff, therefore an average 10% across all casts. Yes, with it up your cast is ~1.01 seconds. Including full NG, you need a total of 510 haste to get to 1 second, but I'm not sure how to handle that buff since it's so peculiar.
Notice that for nature's grace I assumed 50% uptime of the buff, therefore an average 10% across all casts. Yes, with it up your cast is ~1.01 seconds. Including full NG, you need a total of 510 haste to get to 1 second, but I'm not sure how to handle that buff since it's so peculiar.
You're computing the average cast time of Nourish? That's not very useful. I think his point was to prevent clipping when NG was active. The way you should handle the buff is simple. Cast time with it active and with it not active; two separate cases.
Notice that for nature's grace I assumed 50% uptime of the buff, therefore an average 10% across all casts. Yes, with it up your cast is ~1.01 seconds. Including full NG, you need a total of 510 haste to get to 1 second, but I'm not sure how to handle that buff since it's so peculiar.
To have 50% uptime with Nourish chain casting, you'd need to have 1 in 6 casts be crits as each Nourish crit lasts for 3 casts even at 1.25sec cast speed (i.e. no haste rating other than NG). I think it's safe to assume our crit rate is closer to 50%, not 17%, so even if the question was "average nourish cast time", assuming 50% is just wrong. Having 45% crit is no problem when raid buffed (20% from gear/raidbuffs and 25% from talents) and for Nourish to drop off we need 3 casts in a row not to crit, which is a 9.1%~ chance, so assuming a 90% uptime for NG when spamming Nourish feels a lot more real. Assuming you know that the chain casting will be required and you already proc'd NG waiting for the damage to be incoming.
However, back to the matter at hand. 510 haste sounds a lot closer to a haste hard cap number I expected. My next question is what do we do about this? Stacking crit is horrible, we all agree that. Dropping NG to get enough haste (I think it's about 1269 haste using your formula) sounds just as bad, and the gain from the 3 talent points is merely 3 in Tranquil Spirit for me (and a final point plus surplus in imp.tranq/emp.touch from GotEM points). I honestly don't know what gear to pick up any more. My only thought on the matter is that I wished NG always had 100% proc on crits and offered 7/14/20% haste, that way we could drop 1 point and stack more haste slowly, by taking points out of both GotEM and NG as our gear progressed.
With 800+ haste, I can see a build like: (yes, that's 1sec RJ/WG GCD)
working, but until our haste reaches that level, I can't see anything but just humping our GCDs and having sub-1s nourish casting. It's not like we're not used to sitting on our GCDs anyway. I'm totally out of ideas, I hate to just ask questions like a nub and not offer much in terms of answers but I don't see this answered anywhere on these forums. What is the best move after this haste hard cap?
Has there been any word if the current state of the T84Piece "lesser" tick on bonus is a bug at around 1500 (Not taking advantage of all the talents and not ticking for something closer to 2200*), or working as intended?
It does not get any benefit from Imp Rejuvenation, Gift of Nature or Genesis and there is no logical reason for it to get them so working as intended - despite how much many of us would want it to include them into the calculation.
I agree, Rawr is not 100% correct for resto druids. Stay with gemming for SP.
The problem with Rawr's Tree Model seems to be that it weights longevity too heavily vs throughput. If you find the option and adjust it from 50/50 to something like 70/30 throughput, the results become more reasonable.
I'm just curious why you would under any circumstances prefer 2 points in brambles (arguably OK but not that great) and 1 point in Starlight Wrath (absolutely useless) over 3 points in Nature's Grace?
I'm just curious why you would under any circumstances prefer 2 points in brambles (arguably OK but not that great) and 1 point in Starlight Wrath (absolutely useless) over 3 points in Nature's Grace?
To not clip the gcd while nourish-spamming, which was the entire point with what he wrote.
On the very first page of this thread, there is a breakdown of how Gift of the Earthmother has soft caps as far as haste goes. On the chart "Wrath of Air and Improved Moonkin Aura/Swift Retribution Aura" it lists 10.95% as the soft cap for 5/5 of Gift of the Earthmother.
I am trying to figure out where the missing percent is. Wrath of Air gives 5%, and then Improved Moonkin Aura gives another 3%, for a total off 8%. 10.95% + 5% + 3% = 18.95% ... still 1% shy of the 19,95% needed for a 1 second GCD.
On the very first page of this thread, there is a breakdown of how Gift of the Earthmother has soft caps as far as haste goes. On the chart "Wrath of Air and Improved Moonkin Aura/Swift Retribution Aura" it lists 10.95% as the soft cap for 5/5 of Gift of the Earthmother.
I am trying to figure out where the missing percent is. Wrath of Air gives 5%, and then Improved Moonkin Aura gives another 3%, for a total off 8%. 10.95% + 5% + 3% = 18.95% ... still 1% shy of the 19,95% needed for a 1 second GCD.
or am I missing something?
Yes, you're missing the fact that the buff haste is multiplicative with the haste percent, as shown in the formula here Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion. For example:
1.5(1-.2)/(1.03*1.05)= 1.1095 or 10.95% haste from haste rating to hit the soft cap.
Yes, you're missing the fact that the buff haste is multiplicative with the haste percent, as shown in the formula here Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion. For example:
1.5(1-.2)/(1.03*1.05)= 1.1095 or 10.95% haste from haste rating to hit the soft cap.
ok, thanks... they are multiplicative, not additive, that was my mistake, thank you very much... I assume Celestial Focus is the same way, which suddenly makes the math make sense to me.
To not clip the gcd while nourish-spamming, which was the entire point with what he wrote.
I guess my point is that with 800 haste or so I wouldn't bother with CF in the first place and if someone feels NG is such a big problem for them then all 7 points can go straight back to resto tree. Wasting so many talent points just so it's a bit easier to push keys doesn't seem like a great idea.
The whole point of CF is not 3% extra haste for Nourish spam but rather to help out with getting your GCD on instants to 1 second - extra haste on Nourish is just gravy and 3% doesn't really mean much there.
In any case this is kind of moot because to even dream about 800 haste right now, you'd have to skip 4T8 bonus and I really don't think that's worth it. Not mentioning that your mana regen and spellpower would go down the drain, as you'd have to gem and enchant pretty much purely for haste.
Gift of Nature and Genesis stack. They increase HoTs by 15% (1.15 coefficient) instead of 10% and 5% seperately (1.155 coefficient). They also stack with improved Rejuvenation (making the coefficient for this spell 1.3).
Empowered Rejuvenation affects both the final Lifebloom ticks as the initial Regrowth heal. Genesis does not affect these.
Master Shapeshifter, Tree of Life aura and Gift of Nature with Genesis are all multiplicative. This means: healing * 1.15 (GoN + Genesis) * 1.06 (ToL aura) * 1.04 (Master Shapeshifter).
As a single point of reference for people doing theorycraft, it might be good to include:
HT glyph healing reduction is additive with GoN. (1+.1-0.5)
Rg glyph healing increase is multiplicative.
As far as I know, all mana-reduction% talents/gear are additive (Moonglow, ToL, Tranquil Spirit, 2t7). (This is memory, not a recent test). I'm not sure about HT glyph. I don't know if Idol of Awakening mana reduction is before, or after talent reductions.
I assume the cast-time reduction from the HT glyph and Naturalist are additive, and applied before haste, but I didn't do a search.
I'm not 100% sure if this is the right place to ask, but does anyone know which hard mode boss the Vestments of the Vile Denizens drops from? I don't have a link to it.
I'm not 100% sure if this is the right place to ask, but does anyone know which hard mode boss the Vestments of the Vile Denizens drops from? I don't have a link to it.
05/14/09, 2:27 PM
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