Pacifist

In my opinion, now ive never had even close to 400 haste but i feel that if a resto druid has 5/5 Gift of the Earthmother, it is unnecessary to have more than 300-350 haste, as a resto druid with the BIS gear your itemization should look like this

2500SP
300 crit rating = 14% crit chance
310 haste rating=16% increase to the speed that your spells cast.
1200spirit

I don't feel you should have much more than that of either one. If you get much higher of either one (haste/crit) I'm pretty sure you have to socket for one or the other and that is a mistake. Spell Power is our best stat as it is for pretty much all healing classes, and that is what you should be mainly socketing for. Spirit should be your second choice for sockets due to spirit giving us even more healing through Improved Tree of Life. Although they nerfed spirit regen, it is still a good stat for druids due to our talents. If you have a blue socket and you want the socket bonus for an item which is usually spell power, you should put a 16spell pwr in it. There are a few exceptions where you don't really need a socket bonus of 4crit rating and you are better off just putting in a spell power gem and it isn't really beneficial unless you are lacking intellect in which case you could use a gem like Luminous Monarch Topaz or if you want a bit of spell power and a bit of haste, you can use Reckless Monarch Topaz/Reckless Monarch Topaz. I highly suggest in your red socket/yellow socket, using Runed Scarley Ruby(19SP) and if it is blue socket, using Purified Twilight Opal or Sparkling Sky Sapphire. If you are itemizing your gear to have more than 350 haste rating or 310 crit rating, you are using too much of the stat and would benefit a bit more from gaining a bit more spell power. Please correct me If I am wrong but im usually top out of the druids in my guild that I I raid with(by ALOT), usually 5-10% more healing and I only have 162haste). They have around 400 and it seems like they are way over what they should be at and they are lacking another stat therefore putting out less healing than I do

 

Oktan

I disagree with your assessment of haste. Haste remains our second best throughput stat, even beyond the soft cap. Getting your GCD, on hots, to one second will help your throughput more than spirit ever will. I wouldn't gem for spirit (sparkling gems that is) ever, unless for some reason my ratio of int to spirit was way out of whack. If you're geming spirit to help with mana issues, it would be by and large more effective to use the Insightful meta instead of Ember, along with a regen trinket like the [Spark of Hope]. If memory serves me, the Insightful meta is worth, on average, about 60-100 mp/5-- that's pretty amazing, and even the SP on the Ember can't really compete with that much regen.

Using an anecdotal case of "I do better than the other trees in my guild" as evidence to support your conclusions of haste not being that good, doesn't persuade me of your assessment on haste. You'd be much better suited to at least look at some WWS reports of some top notch druids, and compare from there.

The nice thing about being a pessimistic, is that you're constantly proven right, or pleasantly surprised.

 

Fiarce

A druid without haste getting their hots to a 1 second GCD kind of feels like a caster without Max hit. I know it seems like a strange analogy, but look at the bonus for our 4 piece.


An instant heal of (mathematically) 1500 when you cast rejuv. You can't tell me that would feel incorrect or somewhat wrong if your character WASN'T rocking the required haste for 1S GCD on instants.

Also, has anyone assessed the incoming Jewelcrafting Nerf? I am wondering if Blacksmithing is going to be the way to go after this next patch (Provided you can find yourself a nice Runed Stormjewel for min/maxing).




Bornakk:
Source: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Upcoming Jewelcrafting Change

 

Pacifist

Ok i do apologize, i didn't really mean to undermine the importance of having lots of haste, and i do completely agree that having a 1 second global CD is perfect. I am looking into changing my gemming for spirit. What im thinking with regen anyways is that if I get alot more haste, I will not have to be casting the entire fight and i i will not need the spirit gems because i will cast the hots i need fast enough to stop casting and get some regen out of the 5secon rule thingy. Does this idea that with more haste, you can get off your casts fast enough where you won't need to worry about havng lots of "mana regen while casting" because i willl be able to stop casting and get some of the larger regen from "mana regen while not casting". If you by chance have a link to some WWS that i can look at, please let me know.

You also mentioned int, should i look to gem spell pwr/int instead of my spirit gems or just spell power.

 

Allinone

I would highly advise against gearing with any sort of assumption that you will dip outside the 5sr. While on many fights its both natural and possible to get that extra mana regen, I am under the school of thought that you gear/gem for a worst case scenario. In this case I would gem more to the understanding that I will be continually chain casting, and will not get the extra mana regen during the entire fight. This way, when the worst case scenaio hits (suppose another healer goes down, and there isnt a battle rez to cover him) I will have the mana I need to pick up the slack. In short, I would say that your idea is a poor one at best.

Your GCD (unhastened) is 1.5 seconds in a worst case scenario. Per cast you are only gaining .5 seconds of time if you compare it to a Haste Capped cast time. On paper you could justify it as, "If I were to cast 5 Rejuvenations, it used to take me 7.5 seconds. If I get my haste capped, I could do that in 5. That would give me 2.5s more that I could spend gaining mana!" However, in reality if we are spamming hots, it is very likely that our goal is to cover as many people as possible. We wouldnt stop at 5, we would cast as many as possible until our HoTs started falling off. It wouldnt translate into more time out of 5sr, it would just result in more casts.

In fact, lowering your cast time generally has an adverse effect on your mana regen. Completely unhastened, a druid could fit 6.6 casts off in a 10 second window. Lets assume that this is Rejuvenation which (fully talented and with the Idol) has a cost of 371 mana. 371 x 6.6 gives us a grand total of 2448.6 mana spent in a 10 second window (on average). Lets bring our cool down to 1s. We can now cast 10 Rejuvenations in the same time frame, for a mana cost of 3710...not surprisingly we have spent nearly 1.5 times the amount of mana than we would have. As a recap, simply because we can cast more often, a haste capped druid will need more regen to support chain casting than normal.

As far as your gem choices are concerned, I look at it this way. If you need:
Mana: Gem Int
If not: Gem Spell Power

If you want to match a Socket Bonus...
Yellow (Need Regen): Gem Int
Yellow (Dont Need Regen): Int/SP
Red: Spell Power
Blue: Spell Power/Spirit

But, in the future, questions about how to gem shouldn't go into the Itemization forum. That is for the "Druid Simple Questions/Simple Answers". Each of these specific forums should be kept clean with new information or solid theory crafting, and not to hold peoples hands.

 

cuddlekin

If you agree that having a 1 sec GCD is perfect, then why don't you have enough haste to get it? You are way below the soft cap especially with your spec.
No, having more haste does not mean you should have more time to NOT heal. It allows you to heal for more in the same amount of time. You should not be standing there not casting for 5 sec during any actual combat(excluding times like in between mimiron phases for example) because there is always something to do. And when Int was mentioned he meant that he would never gem 16 spirit gems unless he had more int than spirit. You should replace all your 16 spirit with 9 SP 8 spirit. Replacing the 16 spirit in your chest with 19 SP would be a good idea since you do not need the haste rating bonus. You should also replace your meta with the insightful because that will give more regen than all of your spirit gems combined, 60-100mp5 vs 25 SP. 69 SP to staff? you need 81. You have more than enough points in subtlety so you should also replace your cloak enchant to 23 haste. And as stated above haste is our 2nd best throughput stat so having more than it takes to cap your GCD is not a bad idea at all. You should be gemming for straight spellpower and especially shouldn't be gemming 16 spirit gems.

 

cuddlekin

All you are losing is the prismatic quality. You are not losing any of the added Spellpower that the 3 gems give you. JC will still give more Spellpower than BS. For yourself, you would have to replace the prismatic in your gloves with a 9 SP 8 Spirit gem to meet the meta requirement and move the prismatic to the legs. You would lose your chest's socket bonus of 4 Haste Rating as well as 10 SP switching the gem to 9 SP 8 Spirit. -10 SP, -4 Haste Rating for you.

 

DirkyD

I have 3 items of gear which hold non-red sockets, which give +sp bonus's.

By having to replace them with correct coloured gems, both to meet the socket bonus, and now to meet the meta, I lose about 30 ish spell power from this change.

I run at about +2700sp raid buffed so its a ~1% decrease in spell power.

 

• Lurchington

There's already been an answer as to Rawr, but I'm finding myself in the same position.

As a holy priest (My Naxx25 main), there was mostly a focus on Intellect until ~22k mana, then haste/crit, then SP. I started gearing that way as a Tree Druid, and my personal goal was to get through a medium length battle (in 25s) without using my innervate (so I can have it as an emergency for someone else).

I have around 1000 int right now (my armory is fishing gear, so I'm guessing) and it feels right, so I'm getting back to SP.

 

cuddlekin

You should never itemize your gear based on the fact that you won't use your own innervate. Innervate is an integral part of our own personal mana regen. Every other healer has their own version of innervate AND they have more than one way to regen mana(crits + Mp5/spirit) so they shouldn't need an Innervate. Also, priest itemization is vastly different from druid itemization so I wouldn't suggest trying to base what to do with your druid off of what you did for your priest.

 

cuddlekin

Yeah. For myself I would lose 15 Spellpower and 6 Spirit while maintaining meta requirements.

 

SkagasmAddict

I'm going to assume you don't have 300,000 SP, and you mean it's a .5% loss in spell power.

 

cuddlekin

Yes I are fail. I always suck with zeros.

 

Nathadir

Right now I'm sitting at 2950 sp raidbuffed, with 420 haste and 620 mp5 (while casting). At the moment there is only one fight where I feel limited on mana - and that's Iron Council hardmode. Even then, the biggest problem for in P3 is basically generating enough throughput to keep the raid up. Any tips as to what I improve on here, gear wise; or talent-wise for that matter? You can view my Armory profile here, if you want.

 

Derin

Same for me. I am finishing Iron Council hardmode with about 500 mana after mana pot. Second fight for me is Thorim hardmode but because I put there my stamina gear

Therefore I am big fun of SP>mana regen. For mana problems fight I only switch trinkets and sometimes put myself with mana tide.
For me if I dont finish fight with less than 30% mana I am bad geared for this fight (too much mana regen) and I am switching for HPS gear.

 

Relinor

Maybe this should be in the Healing Discussion, but the crux of the post is about Haste Values and Nourish Clipping.

I'm currently looking to move points out of GotE, probably down to 3/5, and to reach 3/3 Celestial Focus with a spec like 18/0/53. To keep a 1.0s GCD on HoTs the OP suggests 606 Haste Rating is required (raid buffed), which is easily obtainable assuming all non-set items have Haste rating instead of Crit, whilst still maintaining the standard amounts of SP/Regen. I'm around 580 Haste right now with a Crit Amulet equipped (Armoury is down for maintenance, but its Relinor, Arathor realm).

The sense behind this spec is to have Nourish cast as fast as possible without relying on Nature's Grace, hence reaching CF. I lose one point from Revitalise, but I don't value that Talent much, and one more point from Tranquil Spirit when I don't currently have mana problems.


My main concern is:
Given nourish is around 1.1s casting speed at 616 Haste and 3/3 CF. When NG procs and Nourish hits a 0.9s cast speed, will it actually be detrimental because it will interfere with the spell queuing? Both these casting speeds are according to Quartz cast bar, in-game with a WoA totem and Imp. Moonkin Aura in my group. I assume these numbers are rounded up/down from a more exact value.

If NG is detrimental, it would be possible miss it and waste four points in Brambles + X to still gain CE. Feels messy, but two of those points have come from the redundant GotE anyway.

I realise spell queuing and clipping Nourish was discussed a couple of pages back, but there did not seem to be a definite conclusion, or a cast speed mentioned where the spell queuing certainly becomes a problem. Possibly at 0.9s it is not a problem, I don't know.


Secondly, when getting to hardmode encounters, am I likely to want more points in Tranquil Spirit? To achieve this I can drop Revitalise all together, or admit defeat and not reach CF. I expect that a Meta Gem/Trinket change will have more impact on mana regeneration than Tranquil Spirit anyway.

Finally, the reason I am looking at CF at all is because I do not value the other options for the spare points, namely Revatalise/Nature's Perfection and Tranquil Spirit. I consider CF at least as a clear way to increase healing output, or the speed of our basic upfront heal, which may occasionally save someone from a close death. Should I value one, or all of these other options as more beneficial than the 'wasted' points achieving CF and its effect? Personally I would much rather have a strong end-tree talent that we'd definitely want to spend our points on, but I guess you have to make do with what you're given.

 

cuddlekin

If you want more throughput then you should be putting the extra points in Natural Perfection and not Revitalize as in 18/0/53. To reach that much haste, which I was at before upgrades thus having only 3 points in GotEM, it requires you to use some Mp5 items over items with spirit/crit which is not advisable. Also, as you upgrade your gear to T8 you will be losing haste in places such as your belt, boots, cloak, and pants/glove combo. As for hard modes you would be better suited switching your meta to Insightful as well trying to get regen from outside sources such as Mana Tide and Hymn of Hope, with both of these I was very comfortable on mana during IC hard. Then if you still need more help with mana you could take points out of Natural Perfection to add to Tranquil Spirit.
You can set Quartz to show a more accurate casting time by going into the options and extending the decimal range for cast times by adjusting a slider to show 1.987 for example. And, at least for myself there is no noticeable clipping of the GCD with a .9 sec nourish.

 

Croga

Worst vase scenario nowadays (mana regen wise) is General Vezax hard mode in which case item stat weighing will take a very dramatic topple towards INT, even over SP as throughput needs to be optimised instead of maximised whilst longevity needs to be maximised.

From a healer point of view (and much more specifically a Druid healer point of view) this is the hardest fight to gear for at the moment. Most other fights can be winged if your gear isn't optimised for it but this one *needs* the correct gear.

 

grimtage

Change your meta gem to Insightful. I've tested it over and over and I've always got it as 60-65mp5 + 21 int. That's significantly better than your current one, which should be around 30 int but only 25 sp. So you're basically comparing 60mp vs 9 int and 25 sp. I know which one is miles better for stat expenditure.

p.s. I always assume my innervate goes to a shammy since 3.1.2.

 

slourette

Has anyone calculated a set of stat weights for haste and spell power (and maybe crit) before the haste cap? I couldn't find it anywhere and I would like to know how much haste I should be willing to give up for spell power (or vise versa) while gearing up. I tried to derive some stuff on my own, but it got very complicated before I could get to anything conclusive. Even a rough estimate would be nice, it feels really silly to just go with the item with the better iLevel.

Here's a bit of the calculations I was doing, just to see if I'm missing anything...

Rejuvenation:

HPS = HasteCorrection * Healing / CastTime
HPS = (HASTE/3279 + 1) * (BaseHealing + SpellCoefficient * SP) / 1.5
HPS = (HASTE/3279 + 1) * (1690 + 3.233 * SP) / 1.5

d/dHaste (HPS) = 1690/3279/1.5 + 3.233/3279/1.5 * SP = 0.3436 + 0.0006573 * SP
d/dSP (HPS) = 3.233/1.5 + 3.233/3279/1.5 * HASTE = 2.155 + 0.0006573 * HASTE

d(HSP) = (0.3436 + 0.0006573 * SP) * d(Haste) + (2.155 + 0.0006573 * HASTE)* d(SP)

My SP = 2000
My Haste = 450

d(HSP) = (1.6582) * d(Haste) + (2.4508)* d(SP)

so if my only spell is rejuv, I should gear according to 1.5 Haste = 1 SP to maximize Hps.

Is this on the right track? I'm not sure how to add GotEM into the calculations. My guess is to just change the 1 to a 1.2 in the HasteCorrection.

EDIT: Ok, for GotEM, I change the cast time from 1.5 to a 1.2. This gives me the correct haste cap of 655. It also interestingly appears to have no effect on the stat weights, since it modifies every term equally.

 

Meta|Gear

Whats the deal with int now? I was reading a couple posts back before 3.1 where several people commented that int would be better for regen with the innervate change, is this true? Do you think it would be worth gemming pure int on my raid heal set? (I am primarily tank healing)

 

Lightflower

Yes Int is better for regen but gemming for Int over SP is a bad decision. If you're having severe mana troubles even with Innervating yourself you can ask for Mana Tide or switch your spec/glyphs around to optimise for tank healing.

 

Meta|Gear

delete

 

dwynn

What Values can i plug into Pawn for Arenas as Resto?

 

Cathiecj

Is there an Ulduar non-hardmode list made?