cuddlekin

chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner
Non-25 Hard Mode compilation. Does include 10 man hard modes, but those are really easy to get.

 

bluree

Why spec CF with 459 haste? And those set pieces are 25m...

Also [Fire Orchid Signet] is better than [Glowing Ring of Reclamation]

 

Jurik

The spec is 459 haste with CF because there are only 4 points spent in GotEM. Personally, I'd rather take 5 in GotEM and pick up 3/3 Revitalize than spend 4 talent points to free up the 1 point spent in GotEM.

 

Mazzarus

Shroud of Alteration - Item - World of Warcraft seems better also as a haste alternative.

 

Mazzarus

I have been pretty happy using this loot rank which you can use for a non-hardmode list:

Loot Rank

These weights were taken from earlier in this thread.

 

Allinone

My earlier list was decent, but I didn't have a good way to calculate Haste and Crit into the equation. Using Paininabox's equations which he made for upcoming revisions to his restoration spread sheet, I ended up with a much more reliable way to string Haste and Crit into the mix. In this list haste and crit more accurately reflect their value. This list assumes you've passed the softcap on haste (359), which should be true for a BiS pre hardmode list. I've still scaled all throughput values down by the same margin, as reportedly hardmodes are fairly mana intensive.

Allinone's Latest Revised Resto Druid Loot Rankings

The largest difference you will see is that secondary throughput statistics (haste, Crit) are valued much higher than they were before. I cannot take credit for finding these values, as the bulk to the work was done by Paininabox. I have assumed a HoT heavy rotation (Rejuv + Wild Growth make up 75% of the total healing done).

Edit: Also, keep in mind that Lootrank doesn't even try to calculate the benefit of a set bonus into the equation. This is a list that is based completely on general mana regen and spell throughput. The bonuses on both T7 and T8 gear should mkae them much better than listed

 

Jurik

Just to summarize, here's the values your lootrank is using:
MP5:1
SP:0.8
Int: 0.549
Spi: 0.531
Haste: 0.351
Crit: 0.138

At least for 10-man hard modes, I have found that a 1:0.8 ratio between longevity and throughput is a bit heavy on MP5. I think a ratio of 1:0.9 may be a bit better, especially when using Spark of Hope which adds a phenomenal amount of longevity.

Actually, it would be ideal if we could get the valuation of int/spi/haste/crit in terms of the value of SP and MP5. Can you post or link the math you used to come up with the above numbers?

 

Sheshonk

Yeah I'm really curious as to why spirit is rated so high. I was under the impression int gave back roughly double the mana regen. I realize spirit grants SP as well, but that shouldn't make it as competitive of a stat as listed.

 

Jurik

Well, we can calculate this pretty easily. Mathing it out, I get the following:

Int gives us more mana in several ways:
* More MP from replenishment
* More initial MP, which we will represent by calculating the amount of MP5 we would need to recover the same MP over the length of the fight
* More MP from spirit regeneration with intensity

Spirit only gives us mana in one way, with the recent change to innervate:
* More MP from spirit regeneration with intensity

We also have to keep in mind that 1 point of raw int is actually worth more than that, due to Kings and IMotW. I'll, showing my work in case I make a mistake or omit something. Please point out if you see any mistakes in my math or assumptions!

Plug in numbers for the variables and you will see exactly how good int and spirit are for longevity at your current gear level. For example, at 1200 int / 1400 spirit, with kings, IMotW and Living Spirit, and an 8 minute fight:

MP5 from 1 int: 0.533211658
MP5 from 1 spirit: 0.373781198

So, under these conditions, 1 point of spirit is about 70% as effective as 1 point of int for longevity purposes alone. Of course, it's important to remember that Spirit also converts to spellpower at a rate of 1 raw spirit -> .193545 spellpower, assuming Kings, IMotW, Living Spirit. Since 1 point of spellpower is assumed to be equivalent in power to 0.8 MP5 (this is a reasonable point to debate), we should add 0.8 *.193545 = .154836 to the value of a single point of spirit. As you can see, this makes spirit very competitive with int (and even moreso if you favor SP higher than 0.8 MP5)

 

cuddlekin

Thank you. Forgot about that one. Fixed.
Because haste is our 2nd best throughtput stat other than Spellpower. Faster Nourishes is not a bad thing. And as for revitalize, I make our 2nd tree take that so I can get living seed because I'm a meanie like that.

 

Vazu

Revitalize is ~ 15% (30% with 2 Druids who have it, etc) as effective as Replenishment on most fights. You're giving up an aweful lot for your raid not having it.

 

Romiress

Comparing Improved Moonkin Aura and Swift Ret Aura as a tree - Moonkin Aura specifically says Haste, while Swift ret specifies Melee/Spell/ranged speed.

Is this an oversight, and both are really 3% haste and effect the GCD? Or is Moonkin more valuble for hastecapping as a druid?

 

Allinone

Thanks for answering that for me Jurik. In tems of pure mana regeneration, Int is much better than Spirit. As a combined stat however, spirit becomes very competitve

The Math itself gets pretty complicated, and sadly I cannot take credit for any of it. As I said before, Paininabox has done all of the heavy lifting.

Paininabox Resto Speadsheet Thread

In post 6 he lists a link to his healing power stat derivations. I would warn you to stay clear unless you have time to read through 12 pages of equations and an advanced degree in mathematics, as it does get a bit technical. I've glanced through them and they seem solid, although I haven't gone through them line by line at this point. In any case I have those formula's in a spreadsheet, which was used to calculate these values. The end goal is/was to create a dynamic, fluid upgrade list for each druid based on their gear. While changing any individual statistic will change each value slightly, it is still very useful as a guide for creating a close approximation for a BiS gearing list.

I made it a bit hasty, basically using my gearing as a guideline, which admittedly is far from BiS. Here is a slight tweaking of it, using the following stat weight/play styles as a guideline. Assuming full raids buffs,

Stats:
Int: 1350
Spirit: 1350
Spell Power: 3020
Crit: 14.65%
Haste: 360

Spell Selection:
Nourish: 10%
Lifebloom: 9%
Rejuvenation: 50%
Regrowth: 6%
Healing Touch: 0%
Wild Growth: 25%

Mana Regen Values: (Assumes 80% uptime on Replenish, 8 minute fight)
Mp5: 1
Int: .504
Spirit: .388

Spell Power Values:
Spell Power: 1
Spirit: .2 (For Spell Power)
Int: .067 (For Crit)
Crit Rating: .191
Haste Rating: .438

Combined Values: (Assuming a 1 mp5 -> .8 SP conversion)
Mp5: 1
Spell Power: .8
Spirit: .548
Int: .557
Crit: .152
Haste: .350

Loot Ranking Link

Feel free to tweak these as needed (mp5 -> SP conversion) or post tweaks you would suggest from end game raiding experience as far as my parameters go.

Advanced disclaimer: While I realize that on most fights, Nourish + Living seed will not make up 10% of our total healing, I felt it necessary to leave our most used direct healing spell in the mix.

 

goodolarchie

I approve of your numbers! Even if you completely devalue crit or mp5 for maximum HoT throughput, the item ranking generally stays the same. Plus, we should really only be looking at 1 or 2 slots having MP5 on them, namely [Starshine Circle] and [Constellus].

 

Jurik

Just to follow up here, I took a look at the healing power derivations and found a few things I had questions about:
* it doesn't list nature's bounty on the Nourish calculation
* it assumes that empowered rejuvenation is additively applied to the spell mod (WowWiki seems to indicate it is applied multiplicatively to the spell mod)
* it assumes genesis, gift of nature, and improved rejuvenation are applied additively with tree of life aura. Is this correct?
* it seems to add the cast time of instants into the duration of the spell, for purposes of calculating EHPS. I thought the cast time should be ignored, as the spell is applied instantly, and haste only affects how soon the next spell can be cast.
* The haste cap at 1.0 seconds doesn't seem to be modeled.

That said, I boiled down the document into a janky spreadsheet and came up with some of my own numbers. Using some reasonable assumptions--particularly, capped haste for HoTs--I got very different numbers:

(Throughput only)
SP: 1
Int: 0.0338
Spi: 0.1941
Haste: 0.00332
Crit: 0.1069

Now I know that my model is lacking in quite a few ways, and I'm working from slightly different assumptions as well. However, one discrepancy leaped out at me: the difference in our valuation of haste is extremely large. Depending on how the spreadsheet you are using addresses the questions above, the emphasis on haste gear may be very, very wrong.

When you think about it, a high emphasis on haste beyond the cap is bizarre: beyond the cap, the stat only affects how quickly the direct portion of Regrowth and Nourish are applied. That's less than 20% of the healing share in your model, yet it's ranked almost half as strong as spellpower which obviously affects 100% of the healing share. Is there an explanation here that I'm missing?

 

Rijndael

In fact, beyond the haste cap, crit gives you more haste bang for your buck (on average) due to Nature's Grace, even ignoring the other benefits of crit. People probably intuitively prefer haste because:

(a) they prefer low variance returns on haste (e.g. they prefer 1% faster casting all the time to 1% increased chance of 20% faster casting, even though the latter is more haste on average).

(b) They can't guarantee appropriate haste buffs in their 25 man raids to cap out their hots with 5/5 GotEM, so they just stack haste as much as possible.

Personally, I stack haste so I can guarantee the cap with 4/5 GotEM (since I need 1 point from somewhere for Empowered Touch with 3.2 changes). After that, I am stacking crit, on the off chance I have to take over tank healing.

The problem resto druids have is they don't have a real auxiliary stat to stack past the cap. Crit and Haste both give very meager returns because so little of our healing is done with direct healing spells, 3.2 buffs to Nourish nonwithstanding. Mp5 would be ok, except it rarely occurs on spirit gear, and we don't really have mana problems as is. They need to make hots crit or add some sort of fancy gem which lets you reconvert a useless auxiliary stat into a useful main stat (like int/spirit).

Since I am making crazy suggestions anyways, I ll go out on a limb and suggest a new glyph for Regrowth which cuts its healing by X% (say somewhere from 25% to 50%), raises its mana cost, but makes it party-wide like PoH. Would be an interesting choice -- giving up tank HPS in exchange for a weaker PoH which leaves a long hot. I feel like we barely cast Regrowth anymore.

EDIT: Thanks for the correction! I dropped a decimal point, and in fact, you get about 0.2% haste from 1% crit. The reasoning mostly stays the same: crit is a better throughput stat after the cap, but perhaps people prefer low variance returns.

 

Allinone

In the spreadsheet I have available to me, it calculates the benefit each stat gives each spell. It then allows you to choose which percentage of healing is done by that spell. I think the document was published before Nature's bounty was released, i'm pretty certain the spreadsheet takes those into account.

I ran my numbers just over haste cap as well (1 point over in fact) the only spells that looked to receive any benefit from haste at all were Nourish, Regrowth, and Healing Touch. At the assumed gear levels haste appears to increase the HPS of those spells more than SP, which is why i assume that it is valued to highly.

As for your other questions, I would suggest you direct them to Paininabox, (possibly using the Resto Speadsheet thread) i'm sure he'd be happy for the input

P.S - If I turn off Nourish and Regrowth Completely i get very similar numbers to yours, however since none of the remaining spells get much benefit from Crit, and we are generally given a haste vs crit choice, I think leaving 10% of our healing up to Nourish is a reasonable assumption. It still gives some value to these stats, but it doesnt allow them to dominate.

 

sulliwan

No it doesn't. The increase in NG uptime from 1% crit is absolutely marginal.

Let's say you got 40% crit on nourish. If you're spamming it, you get 3 casts off during one NG proc.
So, haste gained from NG is NG uptime*0.2*100%.
(1-(1-0.4)^3)*0.2*100% = 15.68%
Let's add 1% crit for 41% total:
(1-(1-0.41)^3)*0.2*100% = 15.89%

So 1% crit gave you an average haste increase of 0.21%

Edit: Or for a more general idea: 1%*20% < 1%*100% :P

I do agree that crit is better than haste after hastecap due to living seed mostly, but it is not more haste than haste, even if you ignore the difference in ratings required for 1%.

 

Rijndael

Yes you are right, of course. Fixed. Crit remains a better throughput stat, though, after haste cap.

 

Eddyqw

You say you're aiming to be haste-capped with 4/5 GotEM, but I'm not seeing how that will be possible without full BiS gear. Looking at your armory right now, you're at 316 haste, while I'm currently sitting at 454. According to to Zoltair's post (linky: Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion) you'd need 541 haste rating to be haste capped with 4/5 GotEM, no Celestial Focus, and full raid buffs. Thats 90ish more required for me, and over 200 more for you!

Going from my current gear to full BiS gear gets me to 550 haste - but that involves two Algalon drops and a Val'anyr. Doing it before then isn't practical in my opinion, as you'd have to gem for haste and the spellpower loss would be too great.

Edit: here's the gear to which I was referring, sans the Algalon-25 belt: chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner

 

Rijndael

I need to reach the cap in a 25 man raid, which implies 430 haste rating (per first post in this thread, which I believe is still correct). Badge neck + runed orb belt will take me most of the way there.

 

Jurik

The 4/5 GotEM haste cap is only 430 if you have 3/3 CF. Spending 4 points in the balance tree is kind of a backwards way to drop 1 point in GotEM.

The 4/5 GotEM cap -- with the haste aura and haste totem, but without without CF -- is 541 haste. We'll probably be able to hit that point in tier 9, but in t8 hitting that point requires some serious focus on haste.

 

mhenrique85

541 Haste is a very easy amount of haste to take on Ulduar. You MUST use 2 pieces with crit instead of Haste Only to take 4t8 bonus, you can replace your chest for the Moonkin t8 chest for example, or if your guild already kill algalon 10 man, he drops the best legs in the game for resto druid, or the chest from vezax hard mode heroic.

For cloak, neck, belt, boot and rings, most of our BiS itens have haste

Neck:

[Sapphire Amulet of Renewal]
[Watchful Eye of Fate]
[Charm of Meticulous Timing]
[Evoker's Charm]

Cloak:

[Disguise of the Kumiho]
[Shroud of Alteration]
[Sunglimmer Drape]
[Sunglimmer Cloak]

Bracer:

[Grasps of Reason]
[Unsullied Cuffs]
[Bracers of the Broodmother]
[Esteemed Bindings]

Belt:

[Belt of Arctic Life]
[Belt of the Sleeper]

Boots:

[Boots of Fiery Resolution]
[Spellslinger's Slippers]
[Boots of the Servant]
[Arcanic Tramplers]
[Boots of the Petrified Forest]

Rings:

[Conductive Seal]
[Starshine Circle]
[Fire Orchid Signet]
[Starshine Signet]
[Lady Maye's Sapphire Ring]


With 606 haste you can take 2 points off GotEM, to take that probably you will have to use a Haste weapon, our BiS is [Staff of Endless Winter], our best Haste option is [Icecore Staff]. As i dont raid 25man, ill take the Icecore as soon its drops lol. with 609 Haste, you can take CF and 2 points on Revitalize, you will have GCD capped for HoTs and 1.15 seg cast time Nourish. Thats probably our best output healing build/itemization now.

I know that 606 haste is hard to get meanly becouse we are stucked with 2 crit pieces for t8 bonus, but its possible.

 

Paininabox

As Allinone has said, NB was created after the document, but it is factored into the spreadsheet Allinone is using. From when I tested rejuv at the beginning of this expansion with all the various talents, it appeared that it was additive with various other talents (GoN, Genesis, etc.). However, I could be wrong, though luckily it's very easy to test because hot ticks don't have a range on them like casted heals. As to the tree of life aura being additive or not, that sounds like a typo in the document. It's computed as multiplicative on the sheet.

Yes, I added the GCD to all the instants because, if you are at the level where you use this kind of optimization, you are likely to be chain casting. They may be instant, but one cannot simply discount haste decreasing the GCD. For instance, the base GCD and a soft-capped GCD is the difference from being able to roll 11 rejuvs on the raid and 17ish, which is significant. The spreadsheet Allinone is using has a "chain casting %" constant that can be used to customize how much you actually chain cast so that the effect can be adjusted. I'm not sure what value Allinone used, however. The sheet also caps it at one second, unlike the document. At the time, I didn't feel like writing out piecewise functions for the cap after how long it took to develop.

The reason why our haste values are so different is likely because of nourish. At high gear levels, nourish actually scales better on haste than on SP, in terms of HPS. However, I do not currently like how NG is calculated on my sheets. As seen earlier (I forget where), it was found that NG almost caps nourish out at 1 second, which would render haste useless. Currently, I'm using a very weak method which calculates the average multiplier on the spell from NG. I'm currently pondering how I would go about calculating %NG uptime on chained nourish casting. Another possibility for why haste might be valued so differently could be that you assume nourish is haste-capped because of NG, which is definately not true, considering that a crit must occur before the buff is applied and thus some % of nourishes you cast aren't capped. Also, the fewer casts of nourish one does in succession would decrease the % of all nourish casts that benefit from NG, as well as the possibility that NG can fall off even while chaining nourish due to an unlucky non-crit chain. So, now you can see why NG is giving me a rough time.

Level 80 Restoration Druid Spreadsheet here.
(v1.41)

 

Porker

I have a question regarding the haste cap. I did my own math and came up with completely different numbers than that on the first page. Now hear me out, I did not read all 25 pages of this topic to see if anyone had the same problem as me so please excuse this post if this was discussed recently.

My math is as follows :

1.5 second Global Cooldown without any haste or buffs.

5/5 Gift of The Earthmother - 1.5 x 20% = .3, 1.5 - .3 = 1.2

Wrath of air totem - 1.2 x 5% = .06, 1.2 - .06 = 1.14

Improved Moonkin Aura - 1.14 x 3% = .0342, 1.14 - .0342 = 1.1058

Now i've done the equation in any order, you will ALWAYS get 1.1058 at the end.

Now assuming i'm correct thus far, we get down to pure haste from gear.

With your global cooldown being 1.1058 to find out how much haste you would need to get it to 1 second, you would need the following equation.

.1058 / 1.1058 = % / 100

1.1058(X) = 10.58

10.58/1.1058 = 9.5677%

So assuming i'm correct, you would need 9.57% haste from gear to reach a 1.0 second global cooldown. Now if my theory is correct, it would be roughly 1.38% less than Norfair's original post. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. If I missed something obvious, feel free to bash me.