The new RJ idol is pretty much a passive 234 SP boost and the only real reason we have kept the current idol was due to nothing better being available (as Blizzard insisted on pushing Nourish for a while).
As our mana consumption has not exactly gone up by much (thanks to being haste soft-capped early on) and due to the nature of the itemization design our basic mana regeneration will always increase on most gear resulting in items like the idol and potentially trinkets are the first (and only?) ones you switch out to compensate.
Ideally there should be a bit more choice in regards to mana regeneration than an idol, two trinkets and a meta gem but this is a general problem among all healers at the moment and Blizzards action in 3.1 has done little to make mana matter as they wished, but rather kept it from being a completly ignorable factor within the game... for now.
The new RJ idol is pretty much a passive 239(?) SP boost and the only real reason we have kept the current idol was due to nothing better being available (as Blizzard insisted on pushing Nourish for a while).
Just Googled it, holy balls that's nice. I must've missed that on MMO-Champion :x
If you aren't at a Haste soft cap, and you don't have any latency, 1% more haste means nearly 1% more of everything you do, unless you have to waste the time on something less efficient (can't toss Rj, because my entire 10-man already has it).
1% more crit means some of our spells heal for nearly 1% more on average (Swiftmend, Regrowth DH, NS+HT, Nourish), some heal for nearly 0.5% more on average (Lb bloom, 4t9 Rj) and some gain no benefit (Rebirth, Tranquility, Innervate, Remove Curse, Abolish Poison, Lb HoT, Rg HoT, pre 4t9 Rj).
1% crit costs a lot more itemization than 1% haste. Until it starts running into various caps, haste is a better value.
If you aren't at a Haste soft cap, and you don't have any latency, 1% more haste means nearly 1% more of everything you do, unless you have to waste the time on something less efficient (can't toss Rj, because my entire 10-man already has it).
1% more crit means some of our spells heal for nearly 1% more on average (Swiftmend, Regrowth DH, NS+HT, Nourish), some heal for nearly 0.5% more on average (Lb bloom, 4t9 Rj) and some gain no benefit (Rebirth, Tranquility, Innervate, Remove Curse, Abolish Poison, Lb HoT, Rg HoT, pre 4t9 Rj).
1% crit costs a lot more itemization than 1% haste. Until it starts running into various caps, haste is a better value.
I highly disagree with this. 1% haste is way greater then 1% crit, the crit mostly is over heals, unless a life and death situation. In that situation i would rather have my GCD over faster due to in case i just casted a rejuve/LB/or WG i can swiftmend that much faster to save someone. In high raid damage fights being able to toss rejuves on raid and also regrowths on the tank is way better then a 1% chance to crit when the tank damage is prity much constant.
Also now we are raid heals, and to keep tanks hotted up. There are other classes that are MT heals (pallys and shammys) so we are jsut for topping off tank with hots and we do have the fastest instant/greatest heal swiftmend and it is way better to be off GCD to hit that asap in a bad moment.
I am putting in the fact that you are close to a 1 sec gcd with rejuve, lifebloom, and wild growth.
i may have missed it (if i did i apologize) has there been any discussion about [Aesuga, Hand of the Ardent Champion]? curious to see what others think of it..
Killamanz there's nothing bad about Aesuga. Socket it with a runed ruby and it's not far behind the 239 weapons we can get. Haste and crit are both stats that can be used on a druid and in my opinion looking for weapons with mp5 or spirit just isn't as appealing as it used to be.
Assuming the current content I can't think of a fight where mana is an issue with my own innervate and MAYBE a mana pot. As a druid it's extremely easy to get the meteorite crystal to stack to 20 before the effect runs out which makes me wonder if I should replace my spark of hope.
From just looking at the wowhead link, [Meteorite Crystal] is 2400 mana, from the use of course.
So it still seems that on the [Spark of Hope] the spell power bonus due to the spirit, and the equip effect is way better then [Sif's Remembrance] and well the Meteorite Crystal just gives back a ton of mana.
Now [Sif's Remembrance] has an internal CD of 45 sec. so in any fight in 2 min you would only get 456( just mental math so could be a few off) and 2400>then 456 any day, but you will loss SP and SP is just a greater stat for druids, but mana efficiency comes into play when you go OOM.
Assuming the current content I can't think of a fight where mana is an issue with my own innervate and MAYBE a mana pot. As a druid it's extremely easy to get the meteorite crystal to stack to 20 before the effect runs out which makes me wonder if I should replace my spark of hope.
Spark of hope:
Say you cast every second in a 5 minute fight that's 12,600 mana saved. Say you're a little slower and cast every 1.2 seconds, that's 10,500 mana back.
Meteorite crystal:
In that 5 minute fight you get 3 uses. It provides a stacking bonus of 12 mana per second. So if you're casting once per second in the use you get 12 + 24 + 36 + 48...+240=2640 mana per use, so 7920 mana in a 5 minute fight. Obviously if you cast a little slower, you'll get even less back.
Sif's:
In a 5 minute fight you'll get about 6 procs worth 468 mana each, so 2808 in that 5 minute fight. But the 110 spellpower is clearly better than the int or spirit on the other two trinkets.
Comparison:
Spark is a pretty clear winner over meteorite crystal, dominating it in mana returned. The exact balance of mana vs spellpower's value is always going to be subjective, but I'd say if you don't need the mana from spark of hope, you should absolutely be doing double spellpower trinkets not spirit or int. I don't think I'd ever really take the additional mana of Meteorite crystal over the spellpower of sif's but again, that's subjective and depends how well you can manage your mana.
When it comes down to it, the massive intellect trinket is aimed at the classes stacking and gemming for int like shamans and paladins, not druids.
Spark of hope:
Say you cast every second in a 5 minute fight that's 12,600 mana saved. Say you're a little slower and cast every 1.2 seconds, that's 10,500 mana back.
While it doesn't really affect the outcome of the comparison, it should be noted that Spark of Hope doesn't reduce the final mana cost of spells by 42 (5*60*42 = 12600), but instead reduces the base mana cost before any multipliers are calculated. The actual reduction to rejuvenation/lifebloom/wg is closer to 30.
Here is my current BIS list. (with some follow-ups) Blizzard thought it was fun to name items of different iLvls the same thing, so I'm not sure the Wowhead links will work below. If you have alternatives LMK. 25-H and 10-H are the heroic versions.
Neck
Best In Slot Wail of the Valkyr (258) (Eydis Darkbane 25-H)
Upgrade 1 Amulet of Binding Elements (245) (Lord Jaraxxus 25)
Upgrade 2 [Wail of the Val'kyr] (245) (Eydis Darkbane 10-H)
Shoulders
Best In Slot Stormrage's Spaulders of Triumph (258) (Token)
Upgrade 1 [Malfurion's Spaulders of Triumph] (245) (45 Emblems + 1 Trophy)
Upgrade 2 Shoulderpads of the Glacial Wilds (245) (Icehowl 25)
Upgrade 3 [Shoulders of the Fateful Accord] (245) (45 Emblems)
Cloak
Best In Slot Bolvar's Devotion (272) Argent Crusade Tribute Chest
Upgrade 1 Jaina's Radiance (272) Argent Crusade Tribute Chest
Upgrade 2 Shawl of the Refreshing Winds (258) (Icehowl 25-H)
Upgrade 3 Maiden's Favor (258) (Anub'arak 25-H)
Chest
Best In slot Stormrage's Robe of Triumph (258) (Token)
Upgrade 1 [Malfurion's Robe of Triumph] (245) (75 Emblems + 1 Trophy)
Upgrade 2 Flowing Vestments of Ascent (258) (Icehowl 25-H)
Upgrade 3 Vestments of the Shattered Fellowship (258) (Champions Cache 25-H)
Wrists
Best In Slot Bracers of Autumn Willow (258) (Lord Jaraxxus 25-H)
Upgrade 1 Bracers of Autumn Willow (245) (Lord Jaraxxus 10-H)
Upgrade 2 Armbands of the Ashen Saint (258) (Anab'arak 25-H)
Upgrade 3 [Armbands of the Ashen Saint] (245) (Anub'arak 10-H)
Hands
Best In Slot Stormrage`s Handguards of Triumph (258) (Token)
Upgrade 1 Gloves of the Lifeless Touch (258) (Anab'arak 25-H)
Upgrade 2 [Malfurion's Handguards of Triumph] (245) (45 Emblems + 1 Trophy)
Belt
Best In Slot Cord of the Tenebrous Mist (258) (Icehowl 25-H)
Upgrade 1 Cord of Pale Thorns (258) (Eydis Darkbane 25-H)
Upgrade 2 Belt of Winter Solistice (245) (Lord Jaraxxus 25)
Upgrade 3 [Cord of Pale Thorns] (245) (Eydis Darkbane 10-H)
Legs
Best In Slot Leggings of the Soothing Touch (258) (Lord Jaraxxus 25-H)
Upgrade 1 Legwraps of Awakening (258) (Anub'arak 25-H)
Upgrade 2 Stormrage's Leggings of Triumph (258) (Token)
Upgrade 3 [Malfurion's Leggings of Triumph] (245) (75 Emblems + 1 Trophy)
Feet
Best In Slot Boots of the Mourning Widow (258) (Champions Cache 25-H)
Upgrade 1 Boots of the Unrelenting Storm (258) (Icehowl 25-H)
Upgrade 2 Boots of Fiery Resolution (239) (Flame Leviaton 25 Hard - Ulduar)
Upgrade 3 [Boots of the Mourning Widow] (245) (Champions Cache 25)
Rings
Best In Slot 1 Ring of the Darkmender (258) (Lord Jaraxxus 25-H)
Best In Slot 2 Band of Deplorable Violence (258) (Anab'arak 25-H)
Upgrade 1 [Band of the Invoker] (245) (35 Emblems)
Upgrade 2 [Band of Deplorable Violence] (245) (Anab'arak 10-H)
Upgrade 3 Heartmenders Circle (245) (35 Emblems)
Upgrade 4 Ring of the Darkmender (245) (Lord Jaraxxus 10-H)
Trinkets
Best In Slot 1 Solace of the Defeated (258) (Lord Jaraxxus 25-H)
Best In Slot 2 Solace of the Defeated (245) (Lord Jaraxxus 10-H)
Upgrade 1 [Show of Faith] (239) (Yogg-Saron 25 Hard - Ulduar)
Upgrade 2 [Pandora's Plea] (226) (Mimiron 25)
Upgrade 3 [Sif's Remembrance] (226) (Thorim 10 Hard - Ulduar)
Upgrade 4 [Spark of Hope] (219) (ulduar)
Main-Hand/Two-Handed Weapon
Best In Slot Misery's End (258) (Anab'arak 25-H)
Upgrade 1 Clemency (258) (Argent Crusade Tribute Chest)
Upgrade 2 Blade of the Silver Disciple (245) (Champions Cashe 10-H)
Upgrade 3 Argent Resolve (245) (Anub'arak 25)
Upgrade 4 [Misery's End] (245) (Anub'arak 10-H)
Shield/Off-Hand Weapon
Best In Slot Chalice of Searing Light (258) (Eydis Darkbane 25-H)
Upgrade 1 [Chalice of Searing Light] (245) (Eydis Darkbane 10-H)
I believe you should have, and use, all the idols listed below.
How are you guys feeling about socket bonuses vs going straight red? Looking at blue sockets with +5sp, our choice is between [Purified Dreadstone] vs [Runed Cardinal Ruby]. Net result is 18.9sp, 12.65 spi for the purple (after Living Spirit/Kings/Imp ToL) versus 23 sp for the red. I tend to favor the purple in this case.
I'm following socket bonuses at the moment because I do tend to get low on mana during Freya and sometimes during Algalon since I give away my innervate. Even if the mana situation isn't as bad in Coliseum I'll still follow colors (even on yellow/5sp) since it allows me more freedom with who I cast innervate on. With the new version you could possibly get away with only using every other on yourself on intensive fights.
Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."
I'm having a hard time making that choice as well, however, it's a very simple choice. Spellpower is our best stat. If you are not running OUT of mana on your fights, then 23sp will provide you with better results. If you are running out of mana consistantly, then the added spirit will help. The difference obviously is minimal, but if you are not running out of mana, then there is no reason to socket for more mana regen.
I should note that my guild has yet to do any of the hard mode encounters, so fights are fairly lax on the healers, and I am very selfish with my innervate.
However, the point still stands, if you need more regen, go with the purple, if not, Runed Rubies all the way.
I would take 10 int over 10 spirit for mana, especially after innervate was decoupled from spirit.
A related point about the relative crappiness of spirit: dropping 1 point from Living Spirit is a great idea if you want 2/2 Empowered Touch. With my gear, I lose 60 spirit and a little under 12 spellpower, raid buffed, which isn't much for 1 talent point compared to the alternatives (5% crit, or 1 point off Revitalize, or NS, or 1 point off GotEM). 12 spellpower is the only real loss, since there is no fight with genuine mana pressure for a Resto druid, and the spellpower loss can be made up with a single hybrid gem.
You're really asking whether it's worth it to trade, what, 3 spell power after improved ToL for 10 spirit. The sp/intellect option is obviously not worthwhile, but it's a much closer call between the first two options.
Please contact me via PM/Twitter regarding any issues with Wrathcalcs or Treecalcs rather than whispering me in-game.
A related point about the relative crappiness of spirit: dropping 1 point from Living Spirit is a great idea if you want 2/2 Empowered Touch. With my gear, I lose 60 spirit and a little under 12 spellpower, raid buffed, which isn't much for 1 talent point compared to the alternatives (5% crit, or 1 point off Revitalize, or NS, or 1 point off GotEM). 12 spellpower is the only real loss, since there is no fight with genuine mana pressure for a Resto druid, and the spellpower loss can be made up with a single hybrid gem.
Thank you for that idea. I dropped NG and picked up 2/2ET and improved barksin and have not really been happy with it. I didn't think I would miss NG and I do. With increased stats on gear the minor amount of spellpower and MP5 from that one point won't be missed. Did both 10 and 25 man colesium and used Nourish quite a bit. I think on 10 man it was about 15% of my healing and I actually feel it is a decent heal now. If they would just get rid of the damn hot requirement.
You're really asking whether it's worth it to trade, what, 3 spell power after improved ToL for 10 spirit. The sp/intellect option is obviously not worthwhile, but it's a much closer call between the first two options.
Well, sure. If you have a blue socket to fill, and you are worried about mana, you obviously put spirit/spellpower in there. The question is, if you are gemmed pure reds and have a few yellow and blue sockets in your gear, what do you start filling first? I claim you go for yellow sockets first, because 10 int is better than 10 spirit. Furthermore, if the socket bonus is terrible, and not worth getting, it may be worth sticking orange/yellow gems into blue/red slots.
That all depends on your valuation of stats though. Back around 3.1 I had them both being pretty equal to each other on around a 0.55~ point basis factoring in the Spi->SP conversion and full buffs on a general overall stat worth (but that was hardly useful with no direct correlation between throughput and regeneration to give a sound relationship).
Well, sure. If you have a blue socket to fill, and you are worried about mana, you obviously put spirit/spellpower in there. The question is, if you are gemmed pure reds and have a few yellow and blue sockets in your gear, what do you start filling first? I claim you go for yellow sockets first, because 10 int is better than 10 spirit. Furthermore, if the socket bonus is terrible, and not worth getting, it may be worth sticking orange/yellow gems into blue/red slots.
I still maintain the argument is being over-complicated. Spirit gives spellpower, Int does not. If you have enough mana, go for spellpower. If you need more mana, try spirit.
Actually, Bliz has almost made this a non-issue. If you have a good socket bonus, just gem red>purple>orange. If the bonus sucks, gem red. Bam.
I'm getting close to enough Triumph emblems to get the latter and have been trying to work through my head an accurate comparison of the two. On the face of it, seems like this is another classic throughput vs regen question but at massive scale. 234 sustained spell power is a crazy amount of SP on a non-weapon item. But 106 mana per Rejuv is an insane amount of mana saved (depending on frequency of RJ cast could be effectively thought of as sustained ~220 mp5***).
Those are both very large numbers for a single item, but it still boils down to the age-old question -- can you afford to lose regen on one item for the throughput of another. If you can without ooming, then use the throughput item. It's hard to say how this will pan out but I am definitely going to get the idol and intend on using it until a given fight proves to me that I can't. I'd be lying if I said I didn't have any concerns though. That's a healthy mana hit for a RJ-heavy raid healer to take.
Any early-grabbers out there have some in-game encounter experience with Flaring Growth yet that can relate their findings on mana? Also, my calculations / reasoning on the ~220 mp5 Awakening number are below. I think the logic is sound but let me know if my math is borked somehow.
***Short-term over the course of a 5 second interval with RJ cast every haste-capped 1 sec GCD, Idol of Awkening is actually equivalent to 530 mp5 but, over the duration of a RJ-heavy encounter, I've reviewed parses of even the more intense RJ fights (Freya 3, XT Hard Mode, etc.) and am seeing an average of ~25 RJ casts per minute over the course of an 8-10 min fight. i had actually expected a much higher number of RJ casts per minute given how I feel those fights go but the logs don't lie. Anyway, at 25 RJ per minute, this nets it closer to a savings of ~220 mp5 which is still a huge chunk of mana.
Awakening is not 530mp5 even under optimal conditions because it doesn't really reduce the mana cost of rejuv by 106 - it is (adversely) affected by our talents, effectively reducing rejuv by 75 mana (note: I don't have a spark so I can't tell how these 2 interact but I assume using a spark makes the idol slighty worse still). Furthermore, even when casting rejuv on gcd (like IC) you'll often want to cast WG when it's off cd. This brings even the theoetical bound on awaking at 312mp5.
Note that unlike most items, these 2 are idols and thus can be switched in combat. Constantly replacing one with the other is probably not the best of ideas since it triggers a full (1.5s) gcd, even if the buff stays, but it does mean you can do something like start with flaring growth and switch to awakening if mana becomes an issue.
07/28/09, 4:11 PM
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