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04/28/09, 6:46 PM
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#451
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Kel'Thuzad
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The lack of haste on our tier set is actually not as big of a problem as it initially looks. Consider that we will probably be using:
Belt of Arctic Life, 40 haste
Greater Speed cloak enchant, 23 haste
Bracers of the Broodmother, 36 haste
Ironmender, 36 haste
Evoker's Charm, 42 haste
T8 hat, 59 haste (54 for 10-man)
T8 shoulders, 48 haste (44 for 10-man)
One or two rings with 30+ haste each
This adds up to just over 300 haste already. The target for softcapped raidbuffed haste (that is, a 1.0 GCD with Wrath of Air and Imp Moonkin or Swift Ret Aura) is 359. So switching a single crit-itemized tier piece for one with similar stats but haste should get you close to this soft-cap.
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04/28/09, 7:39 PM
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#452
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Chromaggus (EU)
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The soft-cap thing is getting thrown around like it means something.
The haste "soft-cap" is the point where it stops affecting rejuv, LB and WG. Crit has barely any effect of these heals anyway (unless you call the bloom critting a major boost). So for these 3, haste is clearly better below the soft-cap and very marignally worse above (although you can drop points in GotEM - for somewhat useful talents).
Haste is better for regrowth. Not a little bit better. Not a toss-up better. TONS better. Most of regrowth's healing comes from the HoT part.
For nourish I couldn't really say, but since you need less haste rating for 1% I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out better here too.
Crit is bad. Nothing fundamental has changed since TBC yet we are supposed to accept having crit on our gear after not using it for 2 years.
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04/29/09, 8:25 AM
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#453
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Lightning's Blade
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Originally Posted by Missdeanna
Yeah, you forgot the cloth.
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For now, I'm doing leather only. I think it's fair to assume most guilds, your clothies will get to roll on the cloth drops long before we do. Once the full list is up for resto/boom, we'll probably add some of the better cloth gear.
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04/29/09, 8:55 AM
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#454
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Soda Popinski
Tauren Druid
Twisting Nether (EU)
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Originally Posted by Fallenangel
The soft-cap thing is getting thrown around like it means something.
The haste "soft-cap" is the point where it stops affecting rejuv, LB and WG. Crit has barely any effect of these heals anyway (unless you call the bloom critting a major boost). So for these 3, haste is clearly better below the soft-cap and very marignally worse above (although you can drop points in GotEM - for somewhat useful talents).
Haste is better for regrowth. Not a little bit better. Not a toss-up better. TONS better. Most of regrowth's healing comes from the HoT part.
For nourish I couldn't really say, but since you need less haste rating for 1% I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out better here too.
Crit is bad. Nothing fundamental has changed since TBC yet we are supposed to accept having crit on our gear after not using it for 2 years.
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I wouldn't go so far as that. If you tend to use RG in bursts or have short periods of burst healing with Nourish then provided you have Nature's Grace critical strike isn't that bad as it somewhat equates into "bonus haste". Naturally it isn't as 'good' as it used to be when NG lasted 15 seconds but if you adapt your usage around the new version you still get some acceptable results.
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04/29/09, 9:25 AM
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#455
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Chromaggus (EU)
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Originally Posted by Playered
I wouldn't go so far as that. If you tend to use RG in bursts or have short periods of burst healing with Nourish then provided you have Nature's Grace critical strike isn't that bad as it somewhat equates into "bonus haste". Naturally it isn't as 'good' as it used to be when NG lasted 15 seconds but if you adapt your usage around the new version you still get some acceptable results.
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Wouldn't go as far as what? Is there any stat you would prefer to have crit over?
Crit will never ever be worth it unless it will have some effect on hots.
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04/29/09, 11:26 AM
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#456
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Fallenangel
Haste is better for regrowth. Not a little bit better. Not a toss-up better. TONS better. Most of regrowth's healing comes from the HoT part.
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On paper, most of the Regrowth healing comes from the HoT part. But you don't cast RG strictly for the HoT, that's generally just bonus healing. You cast it when:
a) You need something a little slower and bigger than Nourish (Throughput > Speed in this case or you'd cast Nourish, so Crit can compete with Haste pretty well in this scenario)
b) You need a HoT to Nourish (can make a case for Haste or Crit when using Nourish)
c) You need a HoT to Mend (Haste does nothing in this scenario)
I also feel like there's something to be said for pushing crit to increase the liklihood that you're able to get rolling NG buffs to keep perma-haste while spamming Nourish, but that's more anecdotal than anything provable.
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04/29/09, 5:56 PM
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#457
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Fallenangel
Wouldn't go as far as what? Is there any stat you would prefer to have crit over?
Crit will never ever be worth it unless it will have some effect on hots.
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Isn't this the case where the stats are pushing the playstyle rather than the playstyle pushing the stats? I'm currently at 575 haste and use CF to push it even higher. Even so 60-80% of my healing in general case comes from HoTs. No matter how you look at this, there is no way I can effectively convert all my haste into healing numbers so most if it is typically going to waste, however, I don't feel like taking crit would help me in any sort of way (since so much healing comes from HoTs anyway and this haste at least lets me not worry about having or not having a totem, boomkin, whatever else so at least I feel like it's doing something for me.
Seems to me that crit is a primarily tank-healing stat - it lets you achieve higher raw HPS at the cost of less mana, and it synergizes with tank-healing talents like Living Seed (ok, that's pretty much it I guess). If you talk about raid healing, crit seems to make no difference at all. If you cast direct heal at someone in the raid, usually they took damage, they are not in the danger of immediate death and the job is to get them out of 10-20% HP zone to 50%+ HP zone and let them top off from HoTs before the next "whack'emall" boss ability.
However, if you had sufficient crit you could go for a bit different play style and rely on crit to generally top off people in the raid with one cast and no need for HoT - pally style. However, I don't think we can push crit high enough for this to be a viable healing strategy, and the only spell that we could use for that would be a glyphed healing touch and it doesn't seem to mesh that well with the resto talents that we have.
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04/30/09, 4:07 AM
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#458
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Playered
I wouldn't go so far as that. If you tend to use RG in bursts or have short periods of burst healing with Nourish then provided you have Nature's Grace critical strike isn't that bad as it somewhat equates into "bonus haste". Naturally it isn't as 'good' as it used to be when NG lasted 15 seconds but if you adapt your usage around the new version you still get some acceptable results.
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Crit is obviously not useless (like say strength!) but it is really quite bad. Not only is haste better for 'burst healing' than crit, but it also helps with rapid decurses (which come up on Yogg), and its throughput increase has low variance, unlike crit. It's not even clear to me crit gets more living seeds per unit time than an equivalent amount of haste.
I have shed most of my crit except in obvious best in slot pieces (like the Malygos quest neck) or tier pieces, which obviously we would all wear regardless of what stat they had because the bonus is so good.
Hots will crit one day. Unfortunately Blizzard feels resto is in a good spot right now, and doesn't want to rock the balance boat with a large change.
Last edited by Rijndael : 04/30/09 at 4:12 AM.
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04/30/09, 5:20 AM
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#459
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Dragonblight (EU)
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Originally Posted by Fallenangel
The soft-cap thing is getting thrown around like it means something.
The haste "soft-cap" is the point where it stops affecting rejuv, LB and WG. Crit has barely any effect of these heals anyway (unless you call the bloom critting a major boost). So for these 3, haste is clearly better below the soft-cap and very marignally worse above (although you can drop points in GotEM - for somewhat useful talents).
Haste is better for regrowth. Not a little bit better. Not a toss-up better. TONS better. Most of regrowth's healing comes from the HoT part.
For nourish I couldn't really say, but since you need less haste rating for 1% I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out better here too.
Crit is bad. Nothing fundamental has changed since TBC yet we are supposed to accept having crit on our gear after not using it for 2 years.
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You're missing a major problem. Going over 450~500(not sure of exact number) haste will take your Nourish cast with Nature's Grace effect under a 1 second cast when fully buffed. This is detrimental because it means we can't queue our next Nourish cast, we have to wait for GCD and then cast another. So spamming/chaining it at every 1.02 (my current cast time) seconds during huge tank damage phases will be that much slower, not faster.
So yes, we have a haste soft-cap, but I think of haste as filling up a glass of water. You fill it up to the point that you're thirsty to (soft-cap) then anything extra is just bonus, until you start spilling water because it's going over the sides(hard-cap?). I'm not totally sure if crit is worth going for over haste at this point, I'm still trying to figure that out myself. Anyone got any clues I'm missing?
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04/30/09, 11:18 AM
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#460
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Chromaggus (EU)
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Originally Posted by Raised
On paper, most of the Regrowth healing comes from the HoT part. But you don't cast RG strictly for the HoT, that's generally just bonus healing.
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This is just not true. I'm not basing what I'm saying on the theoretical healing values of the HoT vs. direct heal of regrowth but on parses of combat logs. Regrowth shines the most when the hot is put to good use - Mimiron p2 being the prominent example. It's the direct heal that I see as the bonus.
As for haste dropping nourish cast time below 1s - like I said the haste-crit question is a lot more balanced for nourish-heavy healing. When 100% of your heal can actually crit, crit rating gains some value.
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04/30/09, 11:40 AM
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#461
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Soda Popinski
Tauren Druid
Twisting Nether (EU)
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You 'should' only be using Regrowth if you are getting the benefit of both components of the heal else you use Rejuvenation or Nourish/HT*. Even that comes into question once you have 4T8 though but until more people start actually getting that it's hard to know for sure especially in hard modes where you are required to maximize your healing as much as possible - it could not be enough still.
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04/30/09, 4:08 PM
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#462
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Kor'gall (EU)
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Originally Posted by Patchnotes
Innervate: This ability has been redesigned to grant 450% of the casting Druid’s base mana pool to the target over 20 seconds.
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This change should be a nerf of around 1,500 mana to most well geared trees however we can now give whoever needs it 15,732 mana which is a welcome change.
Also stuff just got a bit one-sided in the mana regen from intellect or spirit department. This is with replenishment set at 80% uptime.
Intellect:
| Spirit -> | 1000 | 1100 | 1200 | 1300 | 1400 | 1500 | 1600 | 1700 | 1800 | 1900 | 2000 | | Intellect | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1000 | 47.22 | 48.65 | 50.07 | 51.49 | 52.92 | 54.34 | 55.77 | 57.19 | 58.61 | 60.04 | 61.46 | | 1100 | 46.56 | 47.92 | 49.28 | 50.63 | 51.99 | 53.35 | 54.71 | 56.06 | 57.42 | 58.78 | 60.14 | | 1200 | 45.98 | 47.28 | 48.58 | 49.88 | 51.18 | 52.48 | 53.78 | 55.08 | 56.38 | 57.68 | 58.98 | | 1300 | 45.47 | 46.72 | 47.97 | 49.22 | 50.47 | 51.72 | 52.97 | 54.22 | 55.46 | 56.71 | 57.96 | | 1400 | 45.02 | 46.22 | 47.43 | 48.63 | 49.83 | 51.04 | 52.24 | 53.44 | 54.65 | 55.85 | 57.05 | | 1500 | 44.61 | 45.77 | 46.94 | 48.10 | 49.26 | 50.43 | 51.59 | 52.75 | 53.91 | 55.08 | 56.24 | | 1600 | 44.24 | 45.37 | 46.49 | 47.62 | 48.75 | 49.87 | 51.00 | 52.12 | 53.25 | 54.37 | 55.50 | | 1700 | 43.91 | 45.00 | 46.09 | 47.18 | 48.28 | 49.37 | 50.46 | 51.55 | 52.64 | 53.74 | 54.83 | | 1800 | 43.60 | 44.66 | 45.72 | 46.78 | 47.84 | 48.91 | 49.97 | 51.03 | 52.09 | 53.15 | 54.21 | | 1900 | 43.32 | 44.35 | 45.38 | 46.42 | 47.45 | 48.48 | 49.51 | 50.55 | 51.58 | 52.61 | 53.65 | | 2000 | 43.06 | 44.06 | 45.07 | 46.08 | 47.08 | 48.09 | 49.10 | 50.10 | 51.11 | 52.12 | 53.12 |
Spirit:
| Spirit -> | 1000 | 1100 | 1200 | 1300 | 1400 | 1500 | 1600 | 1700 | 1800 | 1900 | 2000 | | Intellect | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1000 | 32.75 | 32.75 | 32.75 | 32.75 | 32.75 | 32.75 | 32.75 | 32.75 | 32.75 | 32.75 | 32.75 | | 1100 | 34.35 | 34.35 | 34.35 | 34.35 | 34.35 | 34.35 | 34.35 | 34.35 | 34.35 | 34.35 | 34.35 | | 1200 | 35.88 | 35.88 | 35.88 | 35.88 | 35.88 | 35.88 | 35.88 | 35.88 | 35.88 | 35.88 | 35.88 | | 1300 | 37.35 | 37.35 | 37.35 | 37.35 | 37.35 | 37.35 | 37.35 | 37.35 | 37.35 | 37.35 | 37.35 | | 1400 | 38.76 | 38.76 | 38.76 | 38.76 | 38.76 | 38.76 | 38.76 | 38.76 | 38.76 | 38.76 | 38.76 | | 1500 | 40.12 | 40.12 | 40.12 | 40.12 | 40.12 | 40.12 | 40.12 | 40.12 | 40.12 | 40.12 | 40.12 | | 1600 | 41.43 | 41.43 | 41.43 | 41.43 | 41.43 | 41.43 | 41.43 | 41.43 | 41.43 | 41.43 | 41.43 | | 1700 | 42.71 | 42.71 | 42.71 | 42.71 | 42.71 | 42.71 | 42.71 | 42.71 | 42.71 | 42.71 | 42.71 | | 1800 | 43.94 | 43.94 | 43.94 | 43.94 | 43.94 | 43.94 | 43.94 | 43.94 | 43.94 | 43.94 | 43.94 | | 1900 | 45.15 | 45.15 | 45.15 | 45.15 | 45.15 | 45.15 | 45.15 | 45.15 | 45.15 | 45.15 | 45.15 | | 2000 | 46.32 | 46.32 | 46.32 | 46.32 | 46.32 | 46.32 | 46.32 | 46.32 | 46.32 | 46.32 | 46.32 |
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Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."
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04/30/09, 6:55 PM
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#463
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Silvermoon (EU)
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So any thoughts on the mechanic of 4pT8?
4pT8 doesn't take Gift of Nature, Improved Rejuvenation and Genesis into account. This results in 25% healing loss, compared to if it would just do a instant rejuv.
Yes, one could say that this isn't a hot and thus no hot bonus (Empowered Rejuv seems to work though) and it's not a spell and thus no spell bonus, but if you look at mechanics of other sets/glyphs/bonuses - they all work the way common sense suggests them to work - with full potential.
Glyph of Rejuvenation, for example, isn't a spell either, yet it benefits from GoN.
I was really hoping it was a bug and Blizzard would fix it in the next patch, but.. not a word from them.
Last edited by Inorrri : 04/30/09 at 7:11 PM.
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04/30/09, 8:04 PM
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#464
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Inorrri
So any thoughts on the mechanic of 4pT8?
4pT8 doesn't take Gift of Nature, Improved Rejuvenation and Genesis into account. This results in 25% healing loss, compared to if it would just do a instant rejuv.
Yes, one could say that this isn't a hot and thus no hot bonus (Empowered Rejuv seems to work though) and it's not a spell and thus no spell bonus, but if you look at mechanics of other sets/glyphs/bonuses - they all work the way common sense suggests them to work - with full potential.
Glyph of Rejuvenation, for example, isn't a spell either, yet it benefits from GoN.
I was really hoping it was a bug and Blizzard would fix it in the next patch, but.. not a word from them.
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Well I wish that it would follow consistently either of the common sense rules:
1. treat it like a hot tick and let it benefit from everything normal hot ticks do,
2. treat it like a direct heal and let it benefit from everything normal direct heals do (including crit *ahem*).
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04/30/09, 9:12 PM
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#465
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Soda Popinski
Tauren Druid
Twisting Nether (EU)
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Originally Posted by Inorrri
So any thoughts on the mechanic of 4pT8?
4pT8 doesn't take Gift of Nature, Improved Rejuvenation and Genesis into account. This results in 25% healing loss, compared to if it would just do a instant rejuv.
Yes, one could say that this isn't a hot and thus no hot bonus (Empowered Rejuv seems to work though) and it's not a spell and thus no spell bonus, but if you look at mechanics of other sets/glyphs/bonuses - they all work the way common sense suggests them to work - with full potential.
Glyph of Rejuvenation, for example, isn't a spell either, yet it benefits from GoN.
I was really hoping it was a bug and Blizzard would fix it in the next patch, but.. not a word from them.
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The way RJ works: (338+SP*0.376*1.2)*1.04*1.06*1.3 - [please note the coefficient might be very slightly off]
The former part (in brackets) is the actual spell itself and the parts outside of the bracket are the talent modifications we gain to our healing done.
Empowered Rejuvenation is within the brackets (the *1.2) so is part of the base spell which is why it (by your assumption here) works for the set bonus while those outside do not.
Once I get the 4 part bonus myself I can test it and confirm what does and does not work.
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