While I don't disagree that the changing of mechanics leads to spell selection moreso than set bonuses do, it would be ignorant not to agree that 4T8 took Rejuv to a questionable place. I cannot honestly say that prior to 4T8 I rejuv'd quite as aggressively as I do now, particularly in cases where someone is -1k and damage is unlikely to continue. Prior to the set bonus I would likely have not considered casting on that person, whereas now it's more of a sweet I can get that person before someone else and overheal be damned. Personally, I think that some of the mana problems people have been expressing are basically a direct result of this.
<Nite_Moogle> i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.
Renew is significantly weaker than Rejuvenation and it is then only a minor aspect of the healing done by Holy Priests if any at all. You may look at the talent and think "wow that is so amazing I wish I had it" but in comparison it would be like giving a 10% initial heal on the application of Lifebloom or so for us, not Rejuvenation. You shouldn't really try and correlate things between classes so directly because we are not the same and we heal differently.
I agree, Renew is definitely weaker and definitely a smaller part of a holy priests toolbox, but its not insignificant; my back of the napkin math gives empowered Renew something like a 975 instant heal (which can still crit) with 2500 spell power. Definitely weaker than our 4T8 bonus, but stilll a useful instant heal with a hot component. (If that were in the druid talent tree, I'd take it. If Blizzard decided to make the druid 4T8 bonus the same as empowered renew, I can't say I'd be too heartbroken either :-) )
This isn't the first time Blizzard has given us a set bonus that encourages Rejuv overuse. I remember spamming Rejuv on the tanks when just getting into Kara because of the Moonglade set bonus (Rejuvenation also gave 35 dodge rating) or even earlier , when the Dreamwalker set bonus gave Rejuvenation ticks a chance to restore 60 mana, 8 energy, or 2 rage to the target. (thinking back, I never actually spammed Rejuv with Dreamwalker, but the temptation was there)
I seem to have wandered off my point, though, which was questioning whether the set bonus, while strong, was so strong as to blight the class itself.
Looks like Blizzard have finally got around to helping us want the 4T9 bonus:
Originally Posted by Blizz
Druid Tier-8 Healer 4-Piece Set Bonus: The amount of healing this set bonus grants on the initial cast of Rejuvenation has been reduced by 50%. In addition, this set bonus no longer has strange interactions with Harold’s Rejuvenating Broach.
Besides the fact I just badged, gemmed and enchanted a Resto t8.5 chest over the Moonkin one so I could take a 245 piece without breaking set, I'm quite pleased. Being stuck with 4 t8 because the set bonus is so massive isn't much fun.
I actually abandoned the T8.5 set bonus before I found out that it was getting nerfed. To me it just doesn't make sence to not equip armor that so obviously is superior to T8.5 just to keep a set bonus, even if its a set bonus that increases my healing with 10-15%.
Personaly I have also felt that the usefullness of this set bonus is somewhat overestimated. It leads to an overuse of rejuvenation and in most cases the instant heal will just lead to the ticks overhealing more than they would have otherwise.
I actually abandoned the T8.5 set bonus before I found out that it was getting nerfed. To me it just doesn't make sence to not equip armor that so obviously is superior to T8.5 just to keep a set bonus, even if its a set bonus that increases my healing with 10-15%.
Personaly I have also felt that the usefullness of this set bonus is somewhat overestimated. It leads to an overuse of rejuvenation and in most cases the instant heal will just lead to the ticks overhealing more than they would have otherwise.
Even in fights where you dont think it was doing much, it was probably around 10% of your throughput. Of course that's prenerf. I'll probably upgrade once I get 2pc t9.33 or t9.66. Sadly I had just bought some badge rings not knowing I was going to need to upgrade tier soon or else I would've saved. Thought I'd be using T8.5 for a while.
I actually abandoned the T8.5 set bonus before I found out that it was getting nerfed. To me it just doesn't make sence to not equip armor that so obviously is superior to T8.5 just to keep a set bonus, even if its a set bonus that increases my healing with 10-15%.
Personaly I have also felt that the usefullness of this set bonus is somewhat overestimated. It leads to an overuse of rejuvenation and in most cases the instant heal will just lead to the ticks overhealing more than they would have otherwise.
The items you are using aren't even better on an item-to-item basis. I can see this claim having some grounds if you had 245 gear, but not with Ulduar pieces.
Saying that the bonus is overrated by looking at parses does have some validity to it, although even a 5% boost to total healing is a strong one. Saying it changed the way healing is done is just not true, though, as druids would continue to hot-blanket the raid in Ulduar regardless of it, just due to the nature of the fights and the high HPS/HPM of rejuv.
And if the bonus actually read "increases healing done by rejuv by 15%", not using it in favor of "obviously superior" gear was plain foolish and hindering your raid. What makes gear actually good is how it improves your healing, not the ilevel of the item or where it drops (re: [Illustration of the Dragon Soul], [Idol of Awakening]).
The items you are using aren't even better on an item-to-item basis. I can see this claim having some grounds if you had 245 gear, but not with Ulduar pieces.
Saying that the bonus is overrated by looking at parses does have some validity to it, although even a 5% boost to total healing is a strong one. Saying it changed the way healing is done is just not true, though, as druids would continue to hot-blanket the raid in Ulduar regardless of it, just due to the nature of the fights and the high HPS/HPM of rejuv.
And if the bonus actually read "increases healing done by rejuv by 15%", not using it in favor of "obviously superior" gear was plain foolish and hindering your raid. What makes gear actually good is how it improves your healing, not the ilevel of the item or where it drops (re: [Illustration of the Dragon Soul], [Idol of Awakening]).
I realise that I expressed myself a bit clumpsy. My remarks were meant to be of a general nature, not a reference to my own gear. I have often heared druids saying that they wouldnt abandon their T.8.5 untill thay have a full T9. To me that did not make sense and that was what I meant, but failed, to say. So essentially I tried to say the same thing as you, ie that lv 245 non set pieces are probably worth using over T.8.5.
As for my own gear. I haven't got the T8.5 shouders so I only had 4 pieces. The gloves are in my opinion "better on an item-to-item basis" and since I was eager to try raiding without the T8.5 set bouns, as an experiment, I therefore chose to use them. Once I had made that choice I went with the Lifetender leggings since the set bonus was lost anyway.
Originally Posted by Fallenangel
What makes gear actually good is how it improves your healing, not the ilevel of the item or where it drops
I agree with you entirely. However, there can of course be different opinions on what "improves your healing" actually means. Personaly I always do my best to look at it from a raid point of view. Therefore I decided to try raiding without the set bonus in an attempt to see what effect the set bonus had on our healing from a raid point of view. It's easy to look at combat logs and see that the set bonus does 10-15% of your total effective healing. But that doesnt necessarily mean that it increases your healing by this amount, since it is in my opinion likely that these 10-15% comes at the epxense of the ticks doing more overhealing (for example). So the comparsion with something like "increases healing done by rejuv by 15%" might not be entirely fair.
It is of course virtualy impossible to do some exact comparing between with and without the set bonus, but one thing struck me after a few raids. When looking at the amount of healing I do compared to the other healers (ie my % of the total healing done) I can not spot any significant difference without the set bouns. I have however not done this for very many raids so it definately needs more epxerimenting.
Thing is, the 4T8 bonus isn't far off that wording. The tick is about 70-75% of a normal rejuv tick. So instead of 6 rejuv ticks, you get 6.75, or 12.5% increase in throughput. Now, there are situation where having the heal instant is not as good as directly boosting existing ticks, but there are situations where it's better. Regardless, the large throughput boost is there.
Saying that the instant heal makes the other ticks overheal more is likely true. However, the same can be said for any increases in SP. That doesn't make these upgrades not worthwhile.
Would be interesting to see the math here, how much SP does it take to make rejuv ticks heal for 6% more, give a base SP of 3K. I've used half the boost of the 4T8 bonus since rejuv is 50% (usually more, but rarely less) of healing done. This number gives a good rough estimate of how much SP the 4T8 is really worth and thus when it's worth switching (pre-nerf, for post divide by 2).
Total healed (6 ticks, no gear bonus) = (1690+2.256*3000)*1.72 = 14546
Old 4t8 = 14546/6/1.3 = 1865
To make that up over six ticks = 1865/1.72/2.256 = 481 SP
Of course 481 SP also helps your other heals, so looking at a WG(glyphed)+5Rj rotation:
WG = 6*(1442+.9664*3000)*1.268 = 33022
Total healed (no gear bonus) = 105752
Old 4t8(5 Rj) = 9324
Healed is base + SP*(6*.9664*1.268+5*1.72*2.256) = base+SP*26.75
To make up for 4t8 you need 9324/26.75 = 349 SP
Almost any other rotation will have a smaller fraction of Rj, and require less SP to break even. With the new 4t8 the "replacement SP" value is cut in half.
The 4t8 is better than it appears on paper, because it is less likely to overheal with intelligent play than regular Rejuv ticks (e.g. if you cast new Rejuvs on players with a health deficit, players who are easy enough to find ).
Total healed (6 ticks, no gear bonus) = (1690+2.256*3000)*1.72 = 14546
Old 4t8 = 14546/6/1.3 = 1865
To make that up over six ticks = 1865/1.72/2.256 = 481 SP
Of course 481 SP also helps your other heals, so looking at a WG(glyphed)+5Rj rotation:
WG = 6*(1442+.9664*3000)*1.268 = 33022
Total healed (no gear bonus) = 105752
Old 4t8(5 Rj) = 9324
Healed is base + SP*(6*.9664*1.268+5*1.72*2.256) = base+SP*26.75
To make up for 4t8 you need 9324/26.75 = 349 SP
Almost any other rotation will have a smaller fraction of Rj, and require less SP to break even. With the new 4t8 the "replacement SP" value is cut in half.
Good, cause I would really like to upgrade to the T9. I have one Trophy already and have been passing on others, but will start rolling I guess. Does this mean we should wait for 4pT9 still? Let's assume it takes 150 sp to break 4pT8 that is still a pretty decent chunk of spell power. It really doesn't help that our 2pT9 doesn't really do anything.
Good, cause I would really like to upgrade to the T9. I have one Trophy already and have been passing on others, but will start rolling I guess. Does this mean we should wait for 4pT9 still? Let's assume it takes 150 sp to break 4pT8 that is still a pretty decent chunk of spell power. It really doesn't help that our 2pT9 doesn't really do anything.
True, the 2pc T9 will have very little impact on us. But it is very impractical for us to attempt stocking up a 4pc T9 to hot-swap out the T8. My approach is going to be to replace all my other gear first and let everyone else angle for their T9. I got the badge idol, a badge ring, and I'll save my "rolls" for neck/wrist/cape/boots/trinkets for now. I just don't see any immediate incentive to break my T8 4pc for a while, even once the nerf hits.
Do any two pieces of off-tier, 25-man normal TOC gear make up the difference of the T8 bonus? How about any 3? I'm doubtful.
Do any two pieces of off-tier, 25-man normal TOC gear make up the difference of the T8 bonus? How about any 3?
Not even close. Just using the chest slot as an example ([Conqueror's Nightsong Robe] vs. [Vestments of the Shattered Fellowship]) you gain roughly ~31 spellpower (obviously taking both of the 7 spell power socket bonuses). You could argue that the haste of the Shattered Fellowship is a better stat than the crit of the tier, but we're talking spell power here aren't we >.>
Even with the nerf, the 4pcT8 is still most likely to be better to have even over 3 iLevel 245 tier/offpieces.
Howdy, long time reader first time poster with a couple of suggestion related questions.
I am currently 50 points below the raid buffed haste soft cap and am in somewhat of a pickle as to what off-tier or T9 piece I should be picking up.
For the time being I am currently leaning towards [Band of the Invoker] to replace my [Fire Orchid Signet], although I would still be shorted 30 haste which is somewhat of a strange irk that I'd like to fix somehow.
I also picked up [Boots of the Harsh Winter] which would replace my current [Spellslinger's Slippers] which would yet again put me even more behind the haste soft cap than I currently am and continue to bug me even further.
Given the gear I currently have equipped, would it be viable to gem straight Haste or X/Haste to makeup for the difference or will the thouroughput be lessened through the loss of SP in those sockets?
Edit: I have every piece of 8.5 as well as numerous emblems to spend so any suggestion would be viable.
Get the chest from either Faction Champions(25), the one from General Vezax(25-Hard) or if no one wants the cloth gloves from Vexaz(25-Hard) are good too. Use your T8.5 shoulders to keep the bonus and you can probably then use your new boots without going below the haste cap.
If you intend to get a T9 item soon you could also go for the legs as this is a slot where in T8 you have crit and in T9 you get haste (again using T8.5 shoulders to keep the bonus for now) but one general rule of thumb to keep your haste at a good level is to never switch out a tier item with haste for a non tier item with crit because you tend to be stuck with your tier items and generally only 2-3 will ever have haste on them whereas other slots you tend to have a choice.
You could also consider dropping signet of soft lament instead of the fire orchid signet. The difference between the two is that one is crit/spirit and the other haste/mp5. Your overall spellpower would be slightly diminished, but you'd be exactly at the haste cap.
One of your big problems is honestly those shoulders. When they dropped for us I didn't even bother bidding, simply because the tier shoulders are one of the pieces that have haste.
What I would do, until you got more gear:
Switch shoulders for T8.5 Shoulders
Switch chest for Moonkin T8.5 Chest
Switch Feet to Boots of Harsh Winter
Change out Soft Lament for Band of the Invoker
Your SP would stay about the same, but your haste would go upto 426.
You could also regem your SP/Int gems to SP/Haste. The 20 haste you'd gain from it along with the new ring would put you only 10 short of the soft cap.
Never got any responses to this post, so i'll try asking here.
Breif version of the previous post, what program\addon do you guys use to look at gear? I like the way rawr works, but i don't think it does a very good job of approximating the MP5 needed, as it shows me very short depending on it's settings, and in-game i don't have mana problems.
Total healed (6 ticks, no gear bonus) = (1690+2.256*3000)*1.72 = 14546
Old 4t8 = 14546/6/1.3 = 1865
To make that up over six ticks = 1865/1.72/2.256 = 481 SP
Of course 481 SP also helps your other heals, so looking at a WG(glyphed)+5Rj rotation:
WG = 6*(1442+.9664*3000)*1.268 = 33022
Total healed (no gear bonus) = 105752
Old 4t8(5 Rj) = 9324
Healed is base + SP*(6*.9664*1.268+5*1.72*2.256) = base+SP*26.75
To make up for 4t8 you need 9324/26.75 = 349 SP
Almost any other rotation will have a smaller fraction of Rj, and require less SP to break even. With the new 4t8 the "replacement SP" value is cut in half.
I just ran this calculation another way and think it's applicable to the discussion here.
4T8 rejuv was worth just under a full rejuv tic. Since the crit on rejuv is 50%, I need two crits out of 6. However, I'm going to change the rules and require 2 crits out of 4 as the 4T8 bonus was more often real healing rather than overheal, and 4 tics out of 6 is what the most druid favorable encounters have showing as effective tics (rejuv showing around 33% overheal).
Under that case, a druid needs around 35% crit to ensure at least 2 tics of each rejuv critting, or around 30% to get an average of 2 tics per rejuv going to crit.
08/25/09, 4:52 PM
However, there can of course be different opinions on what "improves your healing" actually means. Personaly I always do my best to look at it from a raid point of view. Therefore I decided to try raiding without the set bonus in an attempt to see what effect the set bonus had on our healing from a raid point of view. It's easy to look at combat logs and see that the set bonus does 10-15% of your total effective healing. But that doesnt necessarily mean that it increases your healing by this amount, since it is in my opinion likely that these 10-15% comes at the epxense of the ticks doing more overhealing (for example). So the comparsion with something like "increases healing done by rejuv by 15%" might not be entirely fair. 
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