We are clearly going to move from T8 to T9 at some point, especially now Blizzard are reducing the T8 4set bonus by 50%. Most of the above discussion has been about 'when' to swap. Personally I am going to try get all four Tier 9 items at once, I should get enough badges within some weeks as I run 10mans and daily heroics also.
Once we get the T9 4set bonus, how do our stat values change? Crit was extremely poor pre-T9 so my hunch is Haste will still be superior. Our three choices are to 1. Continue with full haste gear. 2. Get to the Haste soft cap and stack Crit. 3. Find a mix inbetween that allows for a 'regular' amount of Rejuv crits, but does not slow our (non-NGd) Nourish cast time too much.
In earlier posts it was suggested 30-35% crit raid buffed would be a good number to aim for to guarantee some regular RJ critting, that would average out around 2 of 5 ticks as crits. Pushing it to an average of 3 in 5 would likely make our haste suffer.
We are clearly going to move from T8 to T9 at some point, especially now Blizzard are reducing the T8 4set bonus by 50%. Most of the above discussion has been about 'when' to swap. Personally I am going to try get all four Tier 9 items at once, I should get enough badges within some weeks as I run 10mans and daily heroics also.
Once we get the T9 4set bonus, how do our stat values change? Crit was extremely poor pre-T9 so my hunch is Haste will still be superior. Our three choices are to 1. Continue with full haste gear. 2. Get to the Haste soft cap and stack Crit. 3. Find a mix inbetween that allows for a 'regular' amount of Rejuv crits, but does not slow our (non-NGd) Nourish cast time too much.
In earlier posts it was suggested 30-35% crit raid buffed would be a good number to aim for to guarantee some regular RJ critting, that would average out around 2 of 5 ticks as crits. Pushing it to an average of 3 in 5 would likely make uur haste suffer.
35% crit would require some sacrifices to superior stats. Even 30% won't be easy to come by if you plan to stay at the GCD with your insta casts. FYI, rejuv is 6 ticks with Nature's Splendor. Getting two ticks to crit on average is somewhat feasible, but I don't think we could get the required base crit (50%) with current gear in order to get 3 ticks on average per rejuv.
As for the question in your second paragraph, T9 will allow crit to affect all of our major heals except WG and to finally offer some benefit to our most significant spell rejuv. I'll still work to stay haste soft capped, but I will definitely be pushing crit as my main secondary stat after that.
Right now I'm sorta saving my DKP for Solace trinkets, but after that, I'll start picking up my T9. I'm not in much of a hurry on T9 until 3.2.2 hits, though.
35% crit would require some sacrifices to superior stats. Even 30% won't be easy to come by if you plan to stay at the GCD with your insta casts. FYI, rejuv is 6 ticks with Nature's Splendor. Getting two ticks to crit on average is somewhat feasible, but I don't think we could get the required base crit (50%) with current gear in order to get 3 ticks on average per rejuv.
As for the question in your second paragraph, T9 will allow crit to affect all of our major heals except WG and to finally offer some benefit to our most significant spell rejuv. I'll still work to stay haste soft capped, but I will definitely be pushing crit as my main secondary stat after that.
Right now I'm sorta saving my DKP for Solace trinkets, but after that, I'll start picking up my T9. I'm not in much of a hurry on T9 until 3.2.2 hits, though.
30% crit will be easily attainable with raid buffs and trading haste for crit.
And saying "T9 will allow crit to affect all of our major heals except WG" is kinda funny. We don't have any major heal that can crit, so that's a bit of an empty statement. It also ignores Lifebloom like many people like to do here but it accounts for 10-15% of healing done on an average fight.
30% crit will be easily attainable with raid buffs and trading haste for crit.
And saying "T9 will allow crit to affect all of our major heals except WG" is kinda funny. We don't have any major heal that can crit, so that's a bit of an empty statement. It also ignores Lifebloom like many people like to do here but it accounts for 10-15% of healing done on an average fight.
I agree that you could trade off your haste and get 30% crit. I just don't think its a good idea.
I think you misunderstood my statement about T9 and crit. What I meant was that once we have the set bonus and rejuv can finally crit, that will mean our list of major spells that can crit will include most of our significant heals. I did not mean that the T9 bonus on its own affected more than just the rejuv spell.
I'm not sure I understand your last sentence. Which are you saying accounts for 10-15% of healing done? Lifebloom or the T9 4-piece bonus? 15% from lifebloom happens for me in some encounters. 15% from the T9 bonus seems impossible. Even on Twins or IC hard mode where rejuv is 60-70 percent of my healing, figuring a 30% crit rate, the best healing I can imagine is something like a little over 12% healing done from the T9 bonus alone even with favorable RNG.
I agree that you could trade off your haste and get 30% crit. I just don't think its a good idea.
I think you misunderstood my statement about T9 and crit. What I meant was that once we have the set bonus and rejuv can finally crit, that will mean our list of major spells that can crit will include most of our significant heals. I did not mean that the T9 bonus on its own affected more than just the rejuv spell.
I'm not sure I understand your last sentence. Which are you saying accounts for 10-15% of healing done? Lifebloom or the T9 4-piece bonus? 15% from lifebloom happens for me in some encounters. 15% from the T9 bonus seems impossible. Even on Twins or IC hard mode where rejuv is 60-70 percent of my healing, figuring a 30% crit rate, the best healing I can imagine is something like a little over 12% healing done from the T9 bonus alone even with favorable RNG.
We have 3 major heals - Rejuv, WG and Lifebloom. Right now none of them can crit, besides the final bloom value which is useless. With 4t9 we crittable spell, which is hardly "most" - this is pretty much semantics, thought.
As for stacking crit past the haste soft cap - there is no argument this will be the best way to go. Haste past the cap is pretty pointless, while trading it for crit when our highest healing done spell can now crit will give noticeable benefits.
12% increase in healing is huge for a set bonus. But it's more than that, not only is the best case great for the bonus, the average case is very good as well since rejuv hardly ever drops below 40% of total healing done, and usually 50% or higher. As for RNG reliance, I have addressed this - RNG when raid healing is ok, especially when you have multiple rejuvs ticking and a 30% crit rate.
My toon casts Rejuv making it procc and when the buff is about to end, when there is 1 sec left, my toon casts a new rejuv and proccs again making the buff refresh. And it happens one more time resulting in a total of 24 secs of +234sp. I'm not complaining at all!!
But seriously, my toons is casting stuff by itself! I have no control on it! :p
Furthermore, it doesn't cost me any mana! SO I'm really not complaining. Just checking if it's an addon that's making this or not... if it is, I'll never uninstall it..
The second "cast" you are seeing is the Rejuvenating - Spell - World of Warcraft buff, which has almost 100% uptime in a raid environment. It's not refreshing the HoT duration, just refreshing the buff duration on you.
Amusingly, you throw your arms up in the cast animation any time it procs, as well as whenever [Val'anyr, Hammer of Ancient Kings] procs and casts a shield on anyone. It makes for a lot of cast animations during heavy HoT rotations!
Please contact me via PM/Twitter regarding any issues with Wrathcalcs or Treecalcs rather than whispering me in-game.
That's what I meant, it refreshes the buff, wasn't talking about the spell. Thus the 24 secs buff duration (3x8sec).
But still it should only procc when I cast rejuv. But my toon is gaining the procc without my consent or control or me casting rejuv... I'm talking about when I'm standing still, not in combat, not even topping off the raid so we can start combat quicker. And suddenly it proccs... 3 times in a row! And me, I'm just standing still, even afk..
That's what I meant, it refreshes the buff, wasn't talking about the spell. Thus the 24 secs buff duration (3x8sec).
But still it should only procc when I cast rejuv. But my toon is gaining the procc without my consent or control or me casting rejuv... I'm talking about when I'm standing still, not in combat, not even topping off the raid so we can start combat quicker. And suddenly it proccs... 3 times in a row! And me, I'm just standing still, even afk..
It has a chance to proc on every tic of rejuventation, and that's the only time it will proc. If you're saying that you can be standing some place, and have it proc when you haven't cast a rejuvenation at all, I'd really like to see a log of that, because I've never had it happen.
Well, it happened to me when I was getting back to the bosses after wipes. I don't remember casting rejuv. But it is possible...
I knew it procced on rejuv ticks, but I honestly wasn't considering that, didn't remeber... :p So, yeh, probably I did cast rejuv before and didn't remember. Will check tonight when I get online. But I'm sure you are right..
So, just saw my first 4 pc T9 in the wild (granted it was a mix of 2 pc 232 and 2 pc 245 T9 but 4 pc nonetheless). I'd love to see some live data of parses to see what kind of totals we are seeing on effective heal in TotC for this bonus. So, all you early adopters out there, let's get the information flowing!
So, just saw my first 4 pc T9 in the wild (granted it was a mix of 2 pc 232 and 2 pc 245 T9 but 4 pc nonetheless). I'd love to see some live data of parses to see what kind of totals we are seeing on effective heal in TotC for this bonus. So, all you early adopters out there, let's get the information flowing!
Might be a dumb question here, but is the critical multiplier 1.5x (normal healing critical) on the Rejuvenation? I know the 4pc Rogue t8 was a 1.4x, as their baseline physical critical is 2x. This is the basis why I am asking. I am pretty sure its 1.5x, but I have seen no logs of it myself.
So, just saw my first 4 pc T9 in the wild (granted it was a mix of 2 pc 232 and 2 pc 245 T9 but 4 pc nonetheless). I'd love to see some live data of parses to see what kind of totals we are seeing on effective heal in TotC for this bonus. So, all you early adopters out there, let's get the information flowing!
Just got my 4pc T9 (All 4 triumph) literally an hour ago, here's me just healing a lifetapping warlock to make sure no ticks were overheal: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
My crit at that moment was 20.15%, so the proc rate was pretty close. I know its an extremely small sample size; I'll upload my 10/25 man parses throughout the week (or maybe just do some random heroic) if anyone wants to see a larger sample.
An interesting note, while doing a heroic previously (forgot to turn on combatlogging for that >.>) rejuv NEVER crit if the HoT was pure overheal. This is why I did the testing making sure it would never be overheal.
Also, Nature's Grace does NOT proc from rejuv critting.
Just got my 4pc T9 (All 4 triumph) literally an hour ago, here's me just healing a lifetapping warlock to make sure no ticks were overheal: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
My crit at that moment was 20.15%, so the proc rate was pretty close. I know its an extremely small sample size; I'll upload my 10/25 man parses throughout the week (or maybe just do some random heroic) if anyone wants to see a larger sample.
An interesting note, while doing a heroic previously (forgot to turn on combatlogging for that >.>) rejuv NEVER crit if the HoT was pure overheal. This is why I did the testing making sure it would never be overheal.
Also, Nature's Grace does NOT proc from rejuv critting.
Sweet, someone has it. You should get some larger samples for us to tear apart. I should have my fourth piece of T9.5 tomorrow, so I should be able to add to the discussion as well.
I don't know about you guys, but seeing Rejuv tick for 3.4k makes me.. uh.. well you know. When I get it, along with a few other small changes I'll be making in the near future, I'll be at 360 haste rating and will have just shy of 31% crit in a raid. Can't wait to see the results. I'll also be finishing up my Val'anyr next week, and something about critting rejuvs and Val'anyr just seems too good.
Just got my 4pc T9 (All 4 triumph) literally an hour ago, here's me just healing a lifetapping warlock to make sure no ticks were overheal: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
My crit at that moment was 20.15%, so the proc rate was pretty close. I know its an extremely small sample size; I'll upload my 10/25 man parses throughout the week (or maybe just do some random heroic) if anyone wants to see a larger sample.
An interesting note, while doing a heroic previously (forgot to turn on combatlogging for that >.>) rejuv NEVER crit if the HoT was pure overheal. This is why I did the testing making sure it would never be overheal.
Also, Nature's Grace does NOT proc from rejuv critting.
All good stuff -- definitely looking forward to seeing the in-raid parses. From the very limited data, even at a low unbuffed crit rating of 20% (actually only 18.5% crit realized in the parse), the 4 pc bonus uplifted your total Rejuv output by ~8.33%. I used =((3473.2-2328)*12)/165061) as the formula to arrive at that percentage. That's a nice uplift -- if we start looking at raid buffed crit and a strategy of stacking crit beyond 360 haste, no reason we couldn't get to 30% crit raid buffed. So add another 50% to that and perhaps it's a 12% RJ uplift. If I take it one step further and apply that 12% uplift to Rejuv to a parse from last night where Rejuv made up 42% of my healing (and that coincidentally / conveniently has a good cross-section of of Koralon, ToC normal, ToC heroic, and Ulduar 1 Light Yogg World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis), we get a number of ~5.0% effective healing added by 4 pc T9 versus the ~11% effective healing that pre-nerf 4 pc T8 generated on this same parse.
Now that is a heavy amount of extrapolation based on a very limited sample size with no overheal so i think we can call that ~5.0% effective healing granted by 4 pc T9 officially SWAG (sophisticated wild-ass guess) material but it is interesting nonetheless. This would put it fairly close to a post-nerf T8 which should be checking in around ~5.5%. At that level of parity, I could see moving forward with a mix of 232/245 T9 4 pc instead of my prior premise of needing to wait until 258. Very interesting indeed. If you can't tell, I'm itching to put a reasonable value to 4 pc T9 so we can better compare it to T8 and I can make an informed decision about using 232,245,258 T9. Don't beat me up too badly on over-extrapolation.
Sweet, someone has it. You should get some larger samples for us to tear apart. I should have my fourth piece of T9.5 tomorrow, so I should be able to add to the discussion as well.
I don't know about you guys, but seeing Rejuv tick for 3.4k makes me.. uh.. well you know. When I get it, along with a few other small changes I'll be making in the near future, I'll be at 360 haste rating and will have just shy of 31% crit in a raid. Can't wait to see the results. I'll also be finishing up my Val'anyr next week, and something about critting rejuvs and Val'anyr just seems too good.
Yea, I was pretty excited about getting Val'anyr and 4pc in back to back weeks
Also, living seed does NOT proc off it as well. It seems that the 4pc just acts as a 1.5x modifier for the tick; nothing that procs from crits procs from the rejuv tick critting.
I have class till ~2 CST, then I'll definitely go run some 5mans and get a good sample with regular overheal, tank healing, etc.
(I have Heroic Jaraxxus/Faction Champs/Twin Valk attempts tonight, so I'll definitely upload WoL after those)
Last edited by Drane : 09/16/09 at 11:48 AM.
Reason: 150% =/= 1.5 -.-
Also, all you T9 4-piecers, go get Loggerhead -- Curse Download and set it for EVERYTHING. No more missed parses I tell you!!
Yea, I have loggerhead since I do the uploading for my 10/25 man runs, I just don't have any Northrend heroics enabled so I don't have to go into the log and delete those when I upload the night's raids >.>
Yeah, I don't have mine set to include Heroics either -- so the same thing would've bit me in the arse as well. I'm mostly just adding some levity . . . but change it now!!
On the above parse (World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis) as it stands now, at 29.7% actual crit rate, the 4 pc bonus is about ~8.75% uplift to Rejuvs (versus the ~12% I predicted at ~30% crit) and 4.4% uplift to total healing on that heroic versus the ~5.0% I predicted.
It's worth noting that on the prior parse with no overheal, your average crits were valued at a clean 1.50 your average tick as expected (avg crit 3473, avg tick 2328 = 3473/2328 = 1.49. On this parse, your average crits are valued at about 1.30 your average tick which was not expected (average crit is 871, avg tick 667 = 871/667 = 1.3)
This perplexed me a bit but I added in another parse that you have and my synapses begin to fire a bit (been a long day). On this parse World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis, we get even another flavor. Crit rate = 31.7%, Avg crit = 1676, avg tick = 961 which values the average crit at 1.75 the value of average hit. On this parse, the crits were almost a ~25% uplift to Rejuv and a ~13% effective heal uplift.
This wide variation really comes down how many crits get absorbed into overheal and how many normal ticks get absorbed into overheal. It'll really take a view (or several views) of Heroic ToC to get a real feel for how crits and ticks are fitting into that damage profile. Anyway interesting to see how overheal starts to mess with the valuation as in the first parse, this was a completely absent factor.
09/14/09, 4:31 PM
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