Restoration Itemization - Page 37

Gallun · 05/14/09, 1:40 AM

To Lrigatonmai: In short, Yes, I am OOM constantly in Ulduar. We are working on hard modes and we take far fewer healers than many would, so I am screaming at the incredibly slow GCD as quartz agonizingly rotates it out for me about 90% of the time for encounters. I am a raid healer most of the time, I've gone back to the innervate glyph as it was not returning enough during full on heal spammage. My targets get it all, rejuv, regrowth, a lifebloom, WG when it's up and then a Nourish or 2 if they still need it, as I said before I’m always waiting on the GCD. I am in nearly all BIS gear for resto druids (or at least from the top 3).

To Allinone: I was too narrow in my thinking, I’ve been locked into GOTEM for my resto build and I didn’t even think of losing it. I wonder though if the 20% haste is worth the 910 haste rating points in item budgets. Let's not go full on though as I don't think that was your intention. Let's try to look at one point at a time.

First some assumptions and statements:
My healing percentages are as follows from a normal Ulduar night, Rejuv (24%), WG (25%), Nourish (21%), Lifebloom (15%), Regrowth (10%) and Living Seed (3%) Wow Web Stats;
Assuming the above stats, 69% of my healing is affected by GotEM.

From Norfair's earlier post
<snip>
Wrath of Air and Improved Moonkin Aura/Swift Retribution Aura
0/5 GotEM = ~38.7% Haste = ~1269 Haste Rating
1/5 GotEM = ~33.12% =~1086 Haste Rating
2/5 GotEM = ~27.60% =~905 Haste Rating
3/5 GotEM = ~22.05% =~723 Haste Rating
4/5 GotEM = ~16.50% =~541 Haste Rating
5/5 GotEM = ~10.95% =~359 Haste Rating
</snip>
One point from GOTEM is equal to 182 haste rating.

If I take it out of GOTEM, the most likely place to put it is maybe Natural Perfection (if you don’t have it already), Tranquil Spirit, buffing HT with Naturalist and Empowered Touch.

The Natural Perfection route is 1% crit per point, which is 45.91 crit rating (again from Norfair), so to go this route is a trade of 182 Haste budget points for 45.91 Crit rating budget points. This doesn’t seem like a fair deal? Can anyone help me out here; do these 2 compare 1:1 in budgets for itemization? Is the ration known? The judge is out on this one and I do not think it's looking good because I seem to remember a little more haste than crit but not multiples this would require to be an even trade (plus I think most already have 3/3).

The Tranquil spirit route gives us 2% base mana reduction per point on HT, Nourish, and Tranquility. If we fill it up to 5/5 (from the common 2/5) that leaves 2 point for Naturalist or EmpTouch. Besides the infrequent use of Tranq on Loatheb I can't even remember the last time I cast that spell, and given that I’m critting with 13300 Nourishes, the only fight I ever haul out HT on is Patchwerk when its back to back spam and we can’t take the time to HoT at all. This one becomes marginalized as it's only a benefit to Nourish and potentially a case specific rotation change to introduce the epic cast HT :P . Let's keep going though, what is that 2% given a recent WWS where I was on the MT (let's not go to the druid as a MT healer just now

). My WWS shows Nourish being 46% of my healing, which with my planned rotation of RJ, RG, LBx3, Nour x3 (maybe 4 or WG), repeat may be considered 16 casts per minute. If that number works for folks then on we go ...[tries to do some math] Hmm, OK.. I came up with 1 point in Tranq Spirit is equal to 14 mana per cast. So, using my high use Nourish MT rotation I could approach 16 casts/minute = 224mana saved per minute = 18.6666Mp5. Best case scenario assuming spamming Nourish at my current 434 haste, raid buffed, I believe I'm at 1.21 sec cast would give me 49 casts/min= 686 mana saved per minute = 57.1666mp5. I believe I could only really realize something closer to the 18 2/3 mp5 benefit for each point here. So, this bakes into 182 haste compared to 18 2/3Mp5. Again, can someone help me with the budget comparison here? I think it's easier to get the Mp5 then trade off that much haste.

Going the Empowered Touch route for a 40% buff to HT; Hmm, going to save this one as I don’t even put it on my main bar anymore.

In the end here it seems like I’m really going to shoot for as close to 359, keep the points in GOTEM, plan to stack budget points into spellpower, MP5, spirit (trinks here I come), Int, and crit as a last resort. With those returns (haven't looked at ET yet) I do not think losing the points in GOTEM are viable, unless we can't find items that stack into the other categories without taking haste well above 359, then we'd be forced to right?

And I just ignored tossing points to NG {DOH!} ... what's that worth, anyone? Bueler?? [more to follow for NG then]

Paininabox · 05/14/09, 1:59 AM

Taking points out of GotEM is completely viable, and is what one should do provided your haste % is high enough to keep your hots at 1 second GCD. Even after the soft cap, haste is still the best throughput stat after SP, because crit affects few spells depending on your playstyle. For this reason, I wouldn't take NP. Since you're a raid healer, NG probably isn't for you. I would max out TS, because that might give you some more wiggle room in regen to go all-out throughput in your gear.

1. That's true, however, more throughput is useful as a HoT-based healer because it will allow us to provide bigger buffers on tanks. I'd argue that it's more useful than more MP5 if we're talking about stacking one over the other.

2. Also true, but most cases where you're GCD locked it's because you're spamming rejuv on the raid. I'm not sure that swapping some of those for RG or nourish is going to be truly more effective. Especially with T8 set bonuses. It might be looking into but I doubt it.

1. I, too, would take the throughput. I'm just arguing that the "regen ceiling" argument is a double-edged sword on throughput as well, thus it isn't particularly good.

2. I don't think this is necessarily true. I agree that a lot of the GCD lock we experience now is due to the gross power of rejuv, but I think that as Ulduar goes into the "farm content" stage, we'll see rejuv's power decrease in the raid. This isn't necessarily to say that we'll outgear the place and there will be heal sniping going on, which is true. However, it is to say that as people clear the content they will learn patterns of both the encounter mechanics and how their raid raids. Since the popular rejuv-blanketing strategy flourishes on the chaos of new content, I think we'll see its effectiveness decrease once the other healers get a handle on the patterns. We've always been really good with early progression content for this reason; we thrive on chaos.

moowalk · 05/14/09, 2:00 AM

All ratings cost the same amount of item budget. That's why they have such strange conversions back into 'real' stats.

• malthrin · 05/14/09, 9:07 AM

Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai

I'm not arguing that at all. I had thought the gem was worth 30mp5. 30mp5 vs 25sp + ~6mp5 is weighted in favor of the 25sp gem in my opinion. The only fight I've recently thought, damn if only I had more mana was Vezax. And this conversation has nothing to do with that. We'll see if my opinion changes once we move to doing more of the hard modes. But I doubt it will change my gear choices as much as it will change my buff choices for the fights that actually stress my mana pool (swapping regen flask/food for the current sp flask/food, regemming a couple pieces for regen, swapping trinkets maybe).

You'll definitely find yourself craving more mana on most hard modes. Once you find yourself desiring more regen, let's take a look at the choices you can make to get it:
1. Meta swap: 25 sp vs (conservatively) 60 mp5
2. Trinket: 110ish sp vs 150ish mp5
3. Flask: 125 sp vs 38 mp5
4. Food: 46 sp vs 40 spi / 16 mp5
5. Gem: 19 sp vs 16 spi / 7 mp5

If you're aiming to maximize your stats, the choices are obvious. If your goal is to optimize for easy modes where you don't need more mana and then tweak your stats for additional regen for hard modes, that's frankly dumb - you gear/spec for what's hard and the trivial stuff will be fine either way.

Of course, there is another factor in how much regen you need; how many DPS ferals do you bring along to mooch Innervate off of?

♦ Lrigatonmai · 05/14/09, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by malthrin

You'll definitely find yourself craving more mana on most hard modes. Once you find yourself desiring more regen, let's take a look at the choices you can make to get it:
1. Meta swap: 25 sp vs (conservatively) 60 mp5
2. Trinket: 110ish sp vs 150ish mp5
3. Flask: 125 sp vs 38 mp5
4. Food: 46 sp vs 40 spi / 16 mp5
5. Gem: 19 sp vs 16 spi / 7 mp5

If you're aiming to maximize your stats, the choices are obvious. If your goal is to optimize for easy modes where you don't need more mana and then tweak your stats for additional regen for hard modes, that's frankly dumb - you gear/spec for what's hard and the trivial stuff will be fine either way.

Of course, there is another factor in how much regen you need; how many DPS ferals do you bring along to mooch Innervate off of?

Your list appears to reinforce my point. There are multiple options for pumping up mana regen once you start content that requires it. You can add up to ~200mp5 by simply changing consumables and trinkets. I'm doubting you can even get near that via gear choices at this point since pretty much every desirable piece of our gear has at least some regen stats on it (outside of trinkets, obviously, where you do have to make that choice).

Paininabox · 05/14/09, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai

Your list appears to reinforce my point. There are multiple options for pumping up mana regen once you start content that requires it. You can add up to ~200mp5 by simply changing consumables and trinkets. I'm doubting you can even get near that via gear choices at this point since pretty much every desirable piece of our gear has at least some regen stats on it (outside of trinkets, obviously, where you do have to make that choice).

I don't see it that way. To me, it seems as if the smallest loss in throughput to the biggest gain in regen is obviously the meta gem slot. Changing your flask to regen is really bad; 125 SP is a huge deficit to take in favor of only 38 mp5. Changing food and gems seems reasonable, but not as much as the meta. Changing trinkets is kind of iffy since such large gains in regen might be more than you need. They seem to be on-off switches between throughput and regen, to me. So, I think that if you need more regen, the first step should be going from ember to insightful.

grimtage · 05/14/09, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by Paininabox

Taking points out of GotEM is completely viable, and is what one should do provided your haste % is high enough to keep your hots at 1 second GCD. Even after the soft cap, haste is still the best throughput stat after SP,...

I disagree, having over 609(I think? could be lower or higher, I might not understand exactly how Nature's Grace combines with spell haste) haste will cause our Nourish chain cast to go under 1sec and therefore start causing the same problems that Wrath spam used to have with clipping the GCD. I honestly don't see a way around this, other than dropping NG and stacking haste up to the point that we have 1sec cast without it. So in essence, after our haste hard cap, haste not only doesn't increase our throughput, it decreases it, but crit always will add a tiny bit of throughput.

Of course, you could argue that regrowth still benefits from haste and therefore if you're raid healing you don't care about chain casting Nourish, but you want to get more regrowths out and nourish is only to patch up those who took a knock and therefore going under 1sec is a good thing, not a bad thing. All depends on your healing style.

Originally Posted by malthrin

Of course, there is another factor in how much regen you need; how many DPS ferals do you bring along to mooch Innervate off of?

Good luck doing that 3.1.2 when it regens anyone's mana. I can already hear the <enter least favourite mana using class here> asking for it!

Paininabox · 05/14/09, 1:22 PM

Originally Posted by grimtage

I disagree, having over 609(I think? could be lower or higher, I might not understand exactly how Nature's Grace combines with spell haste) haste will cause our Nourish chain cast to go under 1sec and therefore start causing the same problems that Wrath spam used to have with clipping the GCD. I honestly don't see a way around this, other than dropping NG and stacking haste up to the point that we have 1sec cast without it. So in essence, after our haste hard cap, haste not only doesn't increase our throughput, it decreases it, but crit always will add a tiny bit of throughput.

Actually, assuming every raid haste buff up and CF and NG uptime of 50%, it caps out at 730 haste. Without CF, 855 haste. Without Imp moonkin aura, 978. Without any raid buffs/NG, it's 1634. So, I'd say in more realistic circumstances where raids don't have perfect composition and getting haste that high is unlikely, the chances of haste-capping nourish are slim. I've found that even assuming no overheal on LS, crit still isn't worth more than haste assuming your spell distribution doesn't heavily lean on crittable heals.

♦ Lrigatonmai · 05/14/09, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by Paininabox

I don't see it that way. To me, it seems as if the smallest loss in throughput to the biggest gain in regen is obviously the meta gem slot. Changing your flask to regen is really bad; 125 SP is a huge deficit to take in favor of only 38 mp5. Changing food and gems seems reasonable, but not as much as the meta. Changing trinkets is kind of iffy since such large gains in regen might be more than you need. They seem to be on-off switches between throughput and regen, to me. So, I think that if you need more regen, the first step should be going from ember to insightful.

I agree, I think we're talking past each other to an extent. The way it sounds, insightful is almost always BIS, whether you're using it to free up other options for using throughput items or using it because you actually need the MP5. Let's see how long it is before it's nerfed since 60-100mp5 on one gem is ridiculous, even for a meta. My original question was about the stat weights in the post(s) above. And how it seemed odd to value MP5 above spell power. I didn't mean to imply an order in swapping things out in the previous post. Simply to indicate that those swaps were always going to provide a greater benefit than choosing different gear altogether since the regen gains between items on the top end are comparatively small.

• malthrin · 05/14/09, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai

Your list appears to reinforce my point. There are multiple options for pumping up mana regen once you start content that requires it. You can add up to ~200mp5 by simply changing consumables and trinkets. I'm doubting you can even get near that via gear choices at this point since pretty much every desirable piece of our gear has at least some regen stats on it (outside of trinkets, obviously, where you do have to make that choice).

So you're saying if you decide need another 60mp5 to be comfortable on hard mode Thorim or Freya or XT, it's better to swap flask/food and sacrifice 171 spellpower than swap meta and sacrifice 25? That doesn't make any sense.

♦ Lrigatonmai · 05/14/09, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by malthrin

So you're saying if you decide need another 60mp5 to be comfortable on hard mode Thorim or Freya or XT, it's better to swap flask/food and sacrifice 171 spellpower than swap meta and sacrifice 25? That doesn't make any sense.

No. I'm not. My original comments were about gear valuation. Read my previous post.

• malthrin · 05/14/09, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai

No. I'm not. My original comments were about gear valuation. Read my previous post.

Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai

I agree, I think we're talking past each other to an extent. The way it sounds, insightful is almost always BIS, whether you're using it to free up other options for using throughput items or using it because you actually need the MP5. Let's see how long it is before it's nerfed since 60-100mp5 on one gem is ridiculous, even for a meta. My original question was about the stat weights in the post(s) above. And how it seemed odd to value MP5 above spell power. I didn't mean to imply an order in swapping things out in the previous post. Simply to indicate that those swaps were always going to provide a greater benefit than choosing different gear altogether since the regen gains between items on the top end are comparatively small.

Ah, ok. I have to admit to skipping the stat weight discussion! I doubt Insightful will get nerfed - it's a straight up double of the value of the TBC Insightful, which is the treatment most metas got. The decision between the TBC spellpower (+threat reduction, woohoo) meta vs. Insightful was similarly one-sided.

Vanguardor · 05/14/09, 2:37 PM

I am rather confused. Recently I was using Rawr to compare gear for different specs. I was rather surprised that for both specs, one being single target focus and the other being hot raid healing, it said that Int was by far the most important stat I needed. It would gem yellows with the Brilliant Autumns Glow, reds with Luminous Monarch Topaz, and blues with Seer's Forest Emerald, 8 Int and 8 Spirit. Now I have always gemmed to maximize spellpower, using Runed for red, Luminous for yellow and Purified for blues. Is mana really that much of an issue or am I missing something? Are you suppose to have over 1000 Int before worrying about the other stats? I mean I understand that int increases your mana regen through Replenishment, but I had always seen and done better gears/gemming for max Spellpower.

Zoltair · 05/14/09, 2:43 PM

Let’s lay it out this way.

25 SP

If I cast Rejuvenation each second for 3 minutes (180 times) with a 1 sec GCD and zero latency (Not possible) and EVERY tick landed a heal with a co-efficiency of 45.125% per tick at 5 ticks a spell that 25SP would improve my healing by 9,900 HP.

25SP*.45125 coeff*5 ticks = 55SP per full running rejuv.
55SPx180 casts=9,900 Healing points

OR

If it was possible to obtain non-stop Nourish casts for 3 minutes at 100% NG uptime (raid buffs, 400 Haste Rating, CF) and receive 1 second Nourishes for 3 min (180 seconds) and never over heal (Not possible), it would increase my total HP for that 3 minutes by 2,970HP.

25SP*.66 coeff*180 casts= 2,970HP

Please keep in mind that these numbers are so bloated since none of the above is even possible. Also, what are the chances that the extra 16HP per Nourish or extra 55 per Rejuv (If all ticks are occurring) are difference makers?

Next…. The IED, chance to proc 600 mana.

Assuming the IED procs once every 45 seconds (this is the average for me, not a bloated number) in the same 3 minute fight it will return 2,400 mana.

2,400 mana equals 3 more Nourishes at avg land value of 5k each = 15,000 HP at a time when you would most likely need it, or 6 more Rujev’s on raid members (Using the same crazy assumptions above thats a possible return of 60,000HP (2k tick * 5 ticks * 6 casts=60,000).

I used to be the hard headed person that said, “It’s not possible to run out of mana so why the hell would I ever gem something that gives me more mana over Spell Power”, but let’s be realistic. It is possible to run tight on mana, especially in hard modes, and there are times when conserving is not a viable option. I think your raid would prefer you to be able to pick up the slack and keep going in those learning experiences when maybe other healers die, or you are Brez’ing, and able to make a raid changing event rather then just get 16HP more or 25SP more on a cast that will more time then not over heal at least a tad. Obviously Spell Power adds up and together can make a difference, but to exchange only 25 of it for 600mana every 45 seconds just seems a bit foolish to me.

grimtage · 05/15/09, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by Paininabox

Actually, assuming every raid haste buff up and CF and NG uptime of 50%, it caps out at 730 haste. Without CF, 855 haste. Without Imp moonkin aura, 978. Without any raid buffs/NG, it's 1634. So, I'd say in more realistic circumstances where raids don't have perfect composition and getting haste that high is unlikely, the chances of haste-capping nourish are slim. I've found that even assuming no overheal on LS, crit still isn't worth more than haste assuming your spell distribution doesn't heavily lean on crittable heals.

I find the value of 855 haste without CF to be highly unlikely. I currently have 464 haste rating and have 1.02sec cast when NG has proc'd. I honestly don't see myself getting another 390 haste and not going sub-1s (I don't have CF). Is there any chance you could show me how you worked out the number 855? I simply took the percent haste required to get 1sec GCD with 0/5 GotEM and took the 20% from Nature's Grace away (I removed an extra 0.1%, as I think it's better to be below hard haste cap than just above), then converted to haste rating to get 609.

As for the chances of haste-capping Nourish. I know when I'm chain-casting (mostly Mimiron p1) I have every conceivable buff going to get my Nourish as close to 1sec as possible, I hope everyone else does.