As to the crit vs haste post 4 pc T9 discussion, I've been going back and forth on this. I have seen 5/5 Heroic ToC on 10s but only have the benefit of seeing 2/5 heroic on 25s ToC. That said, my experience to date has been that, due to damage profile and specific debuffs, Regrowth and Nourish are taking a more prominent place in my arsenal. Based on this, my current plan is to shoot for 541 haste to get to 1 sec post-NG Nourishes and also allow me to drop 1 point out of GotEM and put that in 2/2 Living Seed (Post 4 PC T9 / 541 haste Resto Spec). After that, I'll push some crit into my gear selection as itemization of available drops allows. I definitely value extra crit on Regrowth / Nourish / Rejuv ticks, but ToC content is making me value speed of direct heal casts even more.
Post T9 4pc(and after 541 haste soft cap with 4/5 GotEM) you would get more benefit from a spec with Natural Perfection rather than Revitalize such as:Post T9 4pc 541 haste. Once you have reached the 1 sec HoT GCD soft cap with 541 haste and 4/5 GotEM the rest of your itemization should be focused on crit, even gemming for crit will become beneficial in yellow sockets that yield a spellpower bonus. I currently reside at 19.66% crit as well as 584 haste(17.81%) unbuffed found here:Current Gear. I will be replacing the Ironmender with the Heroic Chalice of Searing Light as soon as it drops which would bring me down to 548 haste(16.71%) and put me up to 21.01% crit unbuffed, found here:Gear + Chalice of Searing Light
And as for the strategy of healing 25ToGC I do not see myself using casted heals more than in the past. Rejuvenation blanketing along with occasional Wild Growths is usually the way to go. UNLESS you are doing Faction Champions, where casted heals are at an utmost necessity to counteract the burst. Northrend Beasts caters to Rejuv on the melee then full HoTs and Nourish spamming on the tanks during phases 1 & 2. Whereas phase 3 calls for blanket Rejuvs and Wild Growths right before crashes. Jaraxxus is another heavy Rejuv blanketing encounter with Swiftmends on those who are getting suplexed by the Mistresses and HoTs/Nourish spam on the tanks. Twin Valkyrs is all Rejuv blanketing with Wild Growths almost on cooldown. Anub'arak calls for heavy HoTs on the tanks and a semi-full arsenal(Rejuv/Regrowth/LifebloomX1) of HoTs on the targets with Penetrating Cold until phase 3 hits and you switch to blanket Rejuvs and Wild Growths with Regrowths and if able a Lifebloom on targets with Penetrating Cold.
Post T9 4pc(and after 541 haste soft cap with 4/5 GotEM) you would get more benefit from a spec with Natural Perfection rather than Revitalize such as:Post T9 4pc 541 haste. Once you have reached the 1 sec HoT GCD soft cap with 541 haste and 4/5 GotEM the rest of your itemization should be focused on crit, even gemming for crit will become beneficial in yellow sockets that yield a spellpower bonus. I currently reside at 19.66% crit as well as 584 haste(17.81%) unbuffed found here:Current Gear. I will be replacing the Ironmender with the Heroic Chalice of Searing Light as soon as it drops which would bring me down to 548 haste(16.71%) and put me up to 21.01% crit unbuffed, found here:Gear + Chalice of Searing Light
And as for the strategy of healing 25ToGC I do not see myself using casted heals more than in the past. Rejuvenation blanketing along with occasional Wild Growths is usually the way to go. UNLESS you are doing Faction Champions, where casted heals are at an utmost necessity to counteract the burst. Northrend Beasts caters to Rejuv on the melee then full HoTs and Nourish spamming on the tanks during phases 1 & 2. Whereas phase 3 calls for blanket Rejuvs and Wild Growths right before crashes. Jaraxxus is another heavy Rejuv blanketing encounter with Swiftmends on those who are getting suplexed by the Mistresses and HoTs/Nourish spam on the tanks. Twin Valkyrs is all Rejuv blanketing with Wild Growths almost on cooldown. Anub'arak calls for heavy HoTs on the tanks and a semi-full arsenal(Rejuv/Regrowth/LifebloomX1) of HoTs on the targets with Penetrating Cold until phase 3 hits and you switch to blanket Rejuvs and Wild Growths with Regrowths and if able a Lifebloom on targets with Penetrating Cold.
I completely agree with your description of the fights. I see why you would spec into Natural Perfection over Reviatalize now that crit can actually have some place in our gear, but I don't think gemming for crit will ever be beneficial. Looking at just the rejuv spell, I get crit worth about 0.4 SP. If you don't want to use luminous gems because your mana feels limitless, I would suggest straight SP, since 23 SP > 12 SP + 10 Crit + 5 SP, which becomes 23 SP > 21 SP, JUST from rejuvenation. I would put the value of crit below 0.25 SP actually, since WG (and LB) gains no benefit from crit but benefits enormously from SP.
(I'm actually neglecting the crit from int, but it's not far off since changing the 500 crit ^^^^ a little doesn't change much)
Note that 9182 comes from 200 * 45.91 crit rating / crit percent
I also think that it's better to go 5/5 GotEM and 2/3 Natural perfection, since that one point of GotEM changes how much haste you need by about 180, but one percent of crit is 46 crit rating. Assuming you can switch most of that haste into crit, I believe it is better to have 5/5 GotEM
Post T9 4pc(and after 541 haste soft cap with 4/5 GotEM) you would get more benefit from a spec with Natural Perfection rather than Revitalize such as:Post T9 4pc 541 haste. Once you have reached the 1 sec HoT GCD soft cap with 541 haste and 4/5 GotEM the rest of your itemization should be focused on crit, even gemming for crit will become beneficial in yellow sockets that yield a spellpower bonus. I currently reside at 19.66% crit as well as 584 haste(17.81%) unbuffed found here:Current Gear. I will be replacing the Ironmender with the Heroic Chalice of Searing Light as soon as it drops which would bring me down to 548 haste(16.71%) and put me up to 21.01% crit unbuffed, found here:Gear + Chalice of Searing Light
And as for the strategy of healing 25ToGC I do not see myself using casted heals more than in the past. Rejuvenation blanketing along with occasional Wild Growths is usually the way to go. UNLESS you are doing Faction Champions, where casted heals are at an utmost necessity to counteract the burst. Northrend Beasts caters to Rejuv on the melee then full HoTs and Nourish spamming on the tanks during phases 1 & 2. Whereas phase 3 calls for blanket Rejuvs and Wild Growths right before crashes. Jaraxxus is another heavy Rejuv blanketing encounter with Swiftmends on those who are getting suplexed by the Mistresses and HoTs/Nourish spam on the tanks. Twin Valkyrs is all Rejuv blanketing with Wild Growths almost on cooldown. Anub'arak calls for heavy HoTs on the tanks and a semi-full arsenal(Rejuv/Regrowth/LifebloomX1) of HoTs on the targets with Penetrating Cold until phase 3 hits and you switch to blanket Rejuvs and Wild Growths with Regrowths and if able a Lifebloom on targets with Penetrating Cold.
Getting Natural Perfection isn't really related to 4/5 GotEM - which is one of the most expensive talents to drop a point in. NP should be part of the standard build with 4T9.
If you don't cast a lot of cast-time heals and blanket the raid with rejuv, opting for NG over of revitalize doesn't make much sense.
Rejuv blanketing on Jaraxxus just shows how broken rejuv really is and why it's suppressing our other heals, at least mentally. I see no reason to do that on a fight that has basically no raid damage besides every 2 minutes. What are you hoping to catch here, a CL target? Surely if rejuv wasn't the free cast it is now then that would be pointless.
I also think that it's better to go 5/5 GotEM and 2/3 Natural perfection, since that one point of GotEM changes how much haste you need by about 180, but one percent of crit is 46 crit rating. Assuming you can switch most of that haste into crit, I believe it is better to have 5/5 GotEM
By having that much haste it affects more spells than just HoTs, which is the downside to GotEM. Having 541 haste static on gear means your nourishes and regrowths cast faster. If you put another point in GotEM and drop 180 haste, all you are doing is LOSING haste to nourish and regrowth, because both ways make you have a 1 sec GCD on HoTs.
By having that much haste it affects more spells than just HoTs, which is the downside to GotEM. Having 541 haste static on gear means your nourishes and regrowths cast faster. If you put another point in GotEM and drop 180 haste, all you are doing is LOSING haste to nourish and regrowth, because both ways make you have a 1 sec GCD on HoTs.
That's not accurate, you are losing potentially 180 crit rating which you could have gained by converting that extra haste to crit.
It's true that it's not 100% doable due to lack of 258 spirit/crit items in some slots, but there is a gain here. It's also possible that 245 spi/crit item is better than the 258 haste one, since the haste is mostly a dud.
Getting Natural Perfection isn't really related to 4/5 GotEM - which is one of the most expensive talents to drop a point in. NP should be part of the standard build with 4T9.
If you don't cast a lot of cast-time heals and blanket the raid with rejuv, opting for NG over of revitalize doesn't make much sense.
Rejuv blanketing on Jaraxxus just shows how broken rejuv really is and why it's suppressing our other heals, at least mentally. I see no reason to do that on a fight that has basically no raid damage besides every 2 minutes. What are you hoping to catch here, a CL target? Surely if rejuv wasn't the free cast it is now then that would be pointless.
Revitalize provides no personal increase to healing. Thus why I do not take it. I make our other druids spec into it in place of living seed so we do have the buff but for personal optimal output revitalize does nothing.
Random people getting flames, random infernals jumping around to AoE, random people getting chain lightninged, already having a Rejuv to Nourish on a target with incinerate flesh, already having a Rejuv on someone to quickly Swiftmend when they get suplexed. There is quite a lot of raid damage on Heroic.
Originally Posted by Fallenangel
That's not accurate, you are losing potentially 180 crit rating which you could have gained by converting that extra haste to crit.
It's true that it's not 100% doable due to lack of 258 spirit/crit items in some slots, but there is a gain here. It's also possible that 245 spi/crit item is better than the 258 haste one, since the haste is mostly a dud.
But when talking about Nourish and Regrowth, 180 crit rating adding onto an already ~60% crit spell isn't adding much. However adding 180 haste rating to those two spells has a much greater effect and increase to healing output.
Revitalize provides no personal increase to healing. Thus why I do not take it. I make our other druids spec into it in place of living seed so we do have the buff but for personal optimal output revitalize does nothing.
Revitalize isn't about your "personal" healing. Its about utility for the raid. Taking a spell that increases the raid's collective MP5 by hundreds and increases the DPS of your melee is well worth the small investment. There's no reason to ONLY force someone else to take it, either. For every druid with the talent, the effect is multiplied (no diminishing returns I am aware of).
Originally Posted by cuddlekin
But when talking about Nourish and Regrowth, 180 crit rating adding onto an already ~60% crit spell isn't adding much. However adding 180 haste rating to those two spells has a much greater effect and increase to healing output.
Increasing your crit has never been about boosting nourish and regrowth. That's why resto druids didn't wanted crit before T9 4-piece. That extra 180 crit you plan to take a pass on would probably be a lot more beneficial than 0.06 second faster nourishes and regrowths.
Revitalize isn't about your "personal" healing. Its about utility for the raid. Taking a spell that increases the raid's collective MP5 by hundreds and increases the DPS of your melee is well worth the small investment. There's no reason to ONLY force someone else to take it, either. For every druid with the talent, the effect is multiplied (no diminishing returns I am aware of).
Increasing your crit has never been about boosting nourish and regrowth. That's why resto druids didn't wanted crit before T9 4-piece. That extra 180 crit you plan to take a pass on would probably be a lot more beneficial than 0.06 second faster nourishes and regrowths.
It is no where near "hundreds" of Mp5, it is worth about 80 Mp5 per healer. And no, 180 crit is NOT more beneficial than 180 haste on nourish and regrowth.
It is no where near "hundreds" of Mp5, it is worth about 80 Mp5 per healer. And no, 180 crit is NOT more beneficial than 180 haste on nourish and regrowth.
Do you not think 80mp5 PER HEALER is worth 3 talent points? Not to mention the other benefits?
Seriously, this is embarrassing. You openly admitted to telling other raiders how to spec, presumably abusing your power in your guild, but refuse to do so yourself for whatever convoluted excuse.
And read what OnyxShadow said. That 180 crit rating boosts your rejuv - your main healing spell, mind you.
Raid members now average more like 25k mana pools with raid buffs. So 9 procs per 5 seconds / 5 = 1.8. 1.8 procs per second. 1.8 procs * 60 seconds = 108 procs per minute. 108 procs * 250 mana (1% of the 25k mana pool) = 27000 mana generated per minute. 27000 / 12 = 2250 MP5 to the raid PER DRUID in an ideal situation.
And read what OnyxShadow said. That 180 crit rating boosts your rejuv - your main healing spell, mind you.
I do agree that after haste soft cap the 180 crit would be more beneficial for Rejuv than the 180 haste would be to nourish and regrowth. I wasn't clear on that, sorry. I just can't seem to find it. Can you show me what gear you would suggest I get this 180 crit rating from? While remaining haste soft capped. And with what spec?
EDIT: This is what I found. 5/5 GotEM 2/3 NP Haste soft capped(over by a lot but I could not manage to get any less while still resembling BiS) with 500 crit rating(22.3%) and 494 haste rating(15.07%) and 2998 Spellpower. 4/5 GotEM 3/3 NP Haste soft capped(more BiS looking than previous gear compilation) with 459 crit rating(22.46%) and 554 haste rating(16.9%) and 3011 Spellpower.
Now which spec/gear setup would you prefer? The one with less haste, less crit, less spellpower, or the one with more haste, more crit, and more spellpower?
Would you be looking at something like this? 5/5 GotEM 2/3 NP Haste soft capped(barely over but furthest of the three from BiS) with 635 crit rating(25.2%) and 363 haste rating(11.07%) and 2969 Spellpower. Is losing 5.83% haste on Nourish and Regrowth, as well as losing 42 Spellpower worth the 2.74% crit?
Can't easily change gear on chardev it seems, but I'd go with quite a diff setup - the non-set piece would be legs or shoulders (and not the chest), ideally the moonkin shoulders, [Belt of the Winter Solstice], [Wail of the Val'kyr], [Polished Dragonslayer's Signet]. Once you can add Anub-25-HC loot this setup gains the ring and a 258 off-set.
Can't easily change gear on chardev it seems, but I'd go with quite a diff setup - the non-set piece would be legs or shoulders (and not the chest), ideally the moonkin shoulders, [Belt of the Winter Solstice], [Wail of the Val'kyr], [Polished Dragonslayer's Signet]. Once you can add Anub-25-HC loot this setup gains the ring and a 258 off-set.
Why would you use anything but the chest as your off-set, especially seeing as two of those items have no regen....
What you suggested would look like this:5/5 GotEM 2/3 NP which is below the haste soft cap for 5/5 GotEM. You would then have to gem for haste such as:5/5 GotEM 2/3 NP. Which will put you AT haste soft cap with 5/5 and still leaves you with 761 crit rating(27.9%) and 360 haste rating(10.98%) and 2923 Spellpower.
So you would lose 5.92% haste, and lose 88 Spellpower to gain 5.44% crit(302 rating).
Revitalize is absolutely a core talent to a resto druid. I can't understand people who don't take it - over four thousand mana to every caster in a fight over 4 minutes? Especially when the resto tree is bloated with talents way worse - f. ex. Living Seed, or Nature's Grace from Balance. Just not the healer mana, but several hundreds of raid dps from rogues, dk's, and to some extent warriors - a must have.
Because the the leg and shoulder tier slots have haste and I want crit?
It's true that the alternatives in these slots aren't amazing, but if you're talking about BiS, then taking the moonkin shoulders is certainly reasonable - surely you can get the 245 at least.
Using a [Ring of the Darkmender] instead of the onyxia puts it squarely on 359 haste.
Revitalize is absolutely a core talent to a resto druid. I can't understand people who don't take it - over four thousand mana to every caster in a fight over 4 minutes? Especially when the resto tree is bloated with talents way worse - f. ex. Living Seed, or Nature's Grace from Balance. Just not the healer mana, but several hundreds of raid dps from rogues, dk's, and to some extent warriors - a must have.
Living Seed and Nature's Grace are better than Revitalize if all you are looking for is more healing output. Which is my personal preference. I would lose 20% haste and 8-12% of my nightly healing speccing out of either.
Because the the leg and shoulder tier slots have haste and I want crit?
It's true that the alternatives in these slots aren't amazing, but if you're talking about BiS, then taking the moonkin shoulders is certainly reasonable - surely you can get the 245 at least.
Using a [Ring of the Darkmender] instead of the onyxia puts it squarely on 359 haste.
Again, neither the shoulder, nor the pants, nor the necklace have any regen...
So you would use something that looks like this5/5 GotEM 2/3 NP. Which puts you at 768 crit rating(28.11%) and 359 haste rating(10.94%) and 2935 Spellpower, with 1035 spirit and 334 mp5.
Whereas my spec/gear would put me at 459 crit rating(22.46%) and 554 haste rating(16.89%) and 3011 Spellpower, with 1212 spirit and 389 mp5.
You seem to be forgetting that you need mp5...even more now that we lost our awakening idol.
Originally Posted by Fallenangel
8-12% healing lost from JUST living seed?
Calling NG 20% haste is funny. Who is actually chain-casting nourish or regrowth here? Get up, don't be shy.
Yes, I actually know how to use living seed effectively. And you should be chain nourishing after every Collapsing Star, on tanks when need be on certain fights, topping people off after massive crash(those that weren't topped off already from Rejuv and Wild Growth), chain cast nourishes and regrowths on faction champions.
Living Seed and Nature's Grace are better than Revitalize if all you are looking for is more healing output. Which is my personal preference. I would lose 20% haste and 8-12% of my nightly healing speccing out of either.
I'd absolutely abandon around 1.5% of your healing output (our last ToTGC25 clear, obviously FC takes it up) especially in ToTGC25 where the situation should be the same for every guild past twins - more raid dps clearly outweighs the healing gain. Derailing the topic though, but I just can't understand the viewpoint here.
Yes, I actually know how to use living seed effectively. And you should be chain nourishing after every Collapsing Star, on tanks when need be on certain fights, topping people off after massive crash(those that weren't topped off already from Rejuv and Wild Growth), chain cast nourishes and regrowths on faction champions.
This totally differs from my way of healing. I never top the raid off with Nourish' on Algalon - a mere 10k hp is way enough to survive a Cosmic Smash, so I'm way better going on with Rejuvs and WG's. Of course the situation is different when someone is, say, below 5k, but you can't say you should just chain Nourish.
Same with Icehowl, a simple Rejuv on targets low and a WG on 6 people is enough, after all the stun lasts what, 15 seconds.
By the way - Healing Touch glyph, for Anub, is pretty awesome in the whole ToTGC25.
I'd absolutely abandon around 1.5% of your healing output (our last ToTGC25 clear, obviously FC takes it up) especially in ToTGC25 where the situation should be the same for every guild past twins - more raid dps clearly outweighs the healing gain.
The very minimal raid DPS increase from Revitalize would not make the difference in downing twins or anub.
The very minimal raid DPS increase from Revitalize would not make the difference in downing twins or anub.
Neither would the minimal healing increase from Living Seed on Twins (if you're soaking, as in you really can't cast most of the time and I don't see druids having any other roles in the fight unless you have too many) or Anub. That argument is pretty bad, seeing we've never debated what makes the fight go down. A bonus is a bonus, and in this case it pretty clearly outweighs Living Seed.
Even in the best of scenarios, there is no way LS accounts for 10% of healing done. If all you're doing is healing 1 tank (or 2) tanks, you're trying to be a paladin.
I can see making a case for a nourish build that has NG and LS at the expense of other talents. I don't think it's viable as a main resto spec, though.
Ok i'll give you that NG and living seed do nothing for twins, and that revitalize is better for that one fight.
Originally Posted by Fallenangel
Even in the best of scenarios, there is no way LS accounts for 10% of healing done. If all you're doing is healing 1 tank (or 2) tanks, you're trying to be a paladin.
I can see making a case for a nourish build that has NG and LS at the expense of other talents. I don't think it's viable as a main resto spec, though.
Ummm have you ever healed NR Beasts with living seed? It's my number 3 heal at 12%. We're the best...tank...healers? And besides putting rejuvs on the melee all you do in phase 1 is heal the tanks...
Nourish spam is too expensive, mana wise. LS procs happen too often to be fully utilized. It's just not meant to be, and is way better done by other classes.
Ok i'll give you that NG and living seed do nothing for twins, and that revitalize is better for that one fight.
Actually, when you start to check, it's a winner at 4/5 of ToTGC fights and the only one you'd want to go NG/LS is FC, which is totally fine without. For Beasts, Jaraxxus, Twins and Anub most you (should) do is hotting and it clearly wins.
Ummm have you ever healed NR Beasts with living seed? It's my number 3 heal at 12%. We're the best...tank...healers? And besides putting rejuvs on the melee all you do in phase 1 is heal the tanks...
Druids are by far the worst tank healers. Nourish/Glyphed HT mana won't last, as a MT healer you'll pretty much have to spam Nourish 24/7. The nature of our healing works (hots hots hots) which really aren't the best healing/time on MT's, and the gear (no intellect like the three other MT healers), I don't see druids doing anything else but raid healing.
10/06/09, 1:00 PM
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