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Old 05/20/09, 4:04 PM   #571
Ezarg
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Uldum
Originally Posted by Harmankaya View Post
To not clip the gcd while nourish-spamming, which was the entire point with what he wrote.
I guess my point is that with 800 haste or so I wouldn't bother with CF in the first place and if someone feels NG is such a big problem for them then all 7 points can go straight back to resto tree. Wasting so many talent points just so it's a bit easier to push keys doesn't seem like a great idea.

The whole point of CF is not 3% extra haste for Nourish spam but rather to help out with getting your GCD on instants to 1 second - extra haste on Nourish is just gravy and 3% doesn't really mean much there.

In any case this is kind of moot because to even dream about 800 haste right now, you'd have to skip 4T8 bonus and I really don't think that's worth it. Not mentioning that your mana regen and spellpower would go down the drain, as you'd have to gem and enchant pretty much purely for haste.

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Old 05/20/09, 4:29 PM   #572
Erdluf
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Echo Isles
The first post includes

  • Gift of Nature and Genesis stack. They increase HoTs by 15% (1.15 coefficient) instead of 10% and 5% seperately (1.155 coefficient). They also stack with improved Rejuvenation (making the coefficient for this spell 1.3).
  • Empowered Rejuvenation affects both the final Lifebloom ticks as the initial Regrowth heal. Genesis does not affect these.
  • Master Shapeshifter, Tree of Life aura and Gift of Nature with Genesis are all multiplicative. This means: healing * 1.15 (GoN + Genesis) * 1.06 (ToL aura) * 1.04 (Master Shapeshifter).
As a single point of reference for people doing theorycraft, it might be good to include:

HT glyph healing reduction is additive with GoN. (1+.1-0.5)
Rg glyph healing increase is multiplicative.

As far as I know, all mana-reduction% talents/gear are additive (Moonglow, ToL, Tranquil Spirit, 2t7). (This is memory, not a recent test). I'm not sure about HT glyph. I don't know if Idol of Awakening mana reduction is before, or after talent reductions.

I assume the cast-time reduction from the HT glyph and Naturalist are additive, and applied before haste, but I didn't do a search.

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Old 05/21/09, 8:06 PM   #573
Antkins
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Nagrand
I'm not 100% sure if this is the right place to ask, but does anyone know which hard mode boss the Vestments of the Vile Denizens drops from? I don't have a link to it.

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Old 05/21/09, 8:15 PM   #574
red
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Laughing Skull
Originally Posted by Antkins View Post
I'm not 100% sure if this is the right place to ask, but does anyone know which hard mode boss the Vestments of the Vile Denizens drops from? I don't have a link to it.
According to wowhead comments, [Vestments of the Blind Denizen] drop from Vezax 25, hard mode. The correct place to ask would be: Druid: Simple Questions/Simple Answers

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Old 05/22/09, 7:51 AM   #575
Sneakdarkman
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Confrerie du Thorium (EU)
Originally Posted by Paininabox View Post
Including full NG, you need a total of 510 haste to get to 1 second, but I'm not sure how to handle that buff since it's so peculiar.
This 510 haste cap, is it with counting 3/3 CF?

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Old 05/22/09, 3:15 PM   #576
Pacifist
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad
Overdueing haste

In my opinion, now ive never had even close to 400 haste but i feel that if a resto druid has 5/5 Gift of the Earthmother, it is unnecessary to have more than 300-350 haste, as a resto druid with the BIS gear your itemization should look like this

2500SP
300 crit rating = 14% crit chance
310 haste rating=16% increase to the speed that your spells cast.
1200spirit

I don't feel you should have much more than that of either one. If you get much higher of either one (haste/crit) I'm pretty sure you have to socket for one or the other and that is a mistake. Spell Power is our best stat as it is for pretty much all healing classes, and that is what you should be mainly socketing for. Spirit should be your second choice for sockets due to spirit giving us even more healing through Improved Tree of Life. Although they nerfed spirit regen, it is still a good stat for druids due to our talents. If you have a blue socket and you want the socket bonus for an item which is usually spell power, you should put a 16spell pwr in it. There are a few exceptions where you don't really need a socket bonus of 4crit rating and you are better off just putting in a spell power gem and it isn't really beneficial unless you are lacking intellect in which case you could use a gem like Luminous Monarch Topaz or if you want a bit of spell power and a bit of haste, you can use Reckless Monarch Topaz/Reckless Monarch Topaz. I highly suggest in your red socket/yellow socket, using Runed Scarley Ruby(19SP) and if it is blue socket, using Purified Twilight Opal or Sparkling Sky Sapphire. If you are itemizing your gear to have more than 350 haste rating or 310 crit rating, you are using too much of the stat and would benefit a bit more from gaining a bit more spell power. Please correct me If I am wrong but im usually top out of the druids in my guild that I I raid with(by ALOT), usually 5-10% more healing and I only have 162haste). They have around 400 and it seems like they are way over what they should be at and they are lacking another stat therefore putting out less healing than I do

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Old 05/22/09, 6:28 PM   #577
Oktan
Von Kaiser
 
Oktan's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Blackhand
I disagree with your assessment of haste. Haste remains our second best throughput stat, even beyond the soft cap. Getting your GCD, on hots, to one second will help your throughput more than spirit ever will. I wouldn't gem for spirit (sparkling gems that is) ever, unless for some reason my ratio of int to spirit was way out of whack. If you're geming spirit to help with mana issues, it would be by and large more effective to use the Insightful meta instead of Ember, along with a regen trinket like the [Spark of Hope]. If memory serves me, the Insightful meta is worth, on average, about 60-100 mp/5-- that's pretty amazing, and even the SP on the Ember can't really compete with that much regen.

Using an anecdotal case of "I do better than the other trees in my guild" as evidence to support your conclusions of haste not being that good, doesn't persuade me of your assessment on haste. You'd be much better suited to at least look at some WWS reports of some top notch druids, and compare from there.

The nice thing about being a pessimistic, is that you're constantly proven right, or pleasantly surprised.

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Old 05/23/09, 3:51 AM   #578
Fiarce
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Mage
 
Emerald Dream
A druid without haste getting their hots to a 1 second GCD kind of feels like a caster without Max hit. I know it seems like a strange analogy, but look at the bonus for our 4 piece.


An instant heal of (mathematically) 1500 when you cast rejuv. You can't tell me that would feel incorrect or somewhat wrong if your character WASN'T rocking the required haste for 1S GCD on instants.

Also, has anyone assessed the incoming Jewelcrafting Nerf? I am wondering if Blacksmithing is going to be the way to go after this next patch (Provided you can find yourself a nice Runed Stormjewel for min/maxing).




Bornakk:
In the next major content patch we will be removing the prismatic quality of the jewelcrafter-only Dragon’s Eye gems. Like other gems, they will have to match the socket color to receive a socket bonus. When this change occurs, players with qualifying jewelcrafting skill will be provided a yet to be determined amount of Dalaran Jewelecrafter Tokens as compensation.

Source: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Upcoming Jewelcrafting Change

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Old 05/23/09, 3:42 PM   #579
Pacifist
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad
Ok i do apologize, i didn't really mean to undermine the importance of having lots of haste, and i do completely agree that having a 1 second global CD is perfect. I am looking into changing my gemming for spirit. What im thinking with regen anyways is that if I get alot more haste, I will not have to be casting the entire fight and i i will not need the spirit gems because i will cast the hots i need fast enough to stop casting and get some regen out of the 5secon rule thingy. Does this idea that with more haste, you can get off your casts fast enough where you won't need to worry about havng lots of "mana regen while casting" because i willl be able to stop casting and get some of the larger regen from "mana regen while not casting". If you by chance have a link to some WWS that i can look at, please let me know.

You also mentioned int, should i look to gem spell pwr/int instead of my spirit gems or just spell power.

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Old 05/23/09, 4:48 PM   #580
Allinone
Von Kaiser
 
Allinone's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Sen'jin
I would highly advise against gearing with any sort of assumption that you will dip outside the 5sr. While on many fights its both natural and possible to get that extra mana regen, I am under the school of thought that you gear/gem for a worst case scenario. In this case I would gem more to the understanding that I will be continually chain casting, and will not get the extra mana regen during the entire fight. This way, when the worst case scenaio hits (suppose another healer goes down, and there isnt a battle rez to cover him) I will have the mana I need to pick up the slack. In short, I would say that your idea is a poor one at best.

Your GCD (unhastened) is 1.5 seconds in a worst case scenario. Per cast you are only gaining .5 seconds of time if you compare it to a Haste Capped cast time. On paper you could justify it as, "If I were to cast 5 Rejuvenations, it used to take me 7.5 seconds. If I get my haste capped, I could do that in 5. That would give me 2.5s more that I could spend gaining mana!" However, in reality if we are spamming hots, it is very likely that our goal is to cover as many people as possible. We wouldnt stop at 5, we would cast as many as possible until our HoTs started falling off. It wouldnt translate into more time out of 5sr, it would just result in more casts.

In fact, lowering your cast time generally has an adverse effect on your mana regen. Completely unhastened, a druid could fit 6.6 casts off in a 10 second window. Lets assume that this is Rejuvenation which (fully talented and with the Idol) has a cost of 371 mana. 371 x 6.6 gives us a grand total of 2448.6 mana spent in a 10 second window (on average). Lets bring our cool down to 1s. We can now cast 10 Rejuvenations in the same time frame, for a mana cost of 3710...not surprisingly we have spent nearly 1.5 times the amount of mana than we would have. As a recap, simply because we can cast more often, a haste capped druid will need more regen to support chain casting than normal.

As far as your gem choices are concerned, I look at it this way. If you need:
Mana: Gem Int
If not: Gem Spell Power

If you want to match a Socket Bonus...
Yellow (Need Regen): Gem Int
Yellow (Dont Need Regen): Int/SP
Red: Spell Power
Blue: Spell Power/Spirit

But, in the future, questions about how to gem shouldn't go into the Itemization forum. That is for the "Druid Simple Questions/Simple Answers". Each of these specific forums should be kept clean with new information or solid theory crafting, and not to hold peoples hands.

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Old 05/23/09, 6:52 PM   #581
cuddlekin
Von Kaiser
 
cuddlekin's Avatar
 
Worgen Druid
 
Scilla
Originally Posted by Pacifist View Post
Ok i do apologize, i didn't really mean to undermine the importance of having lots of haste, and i do completely agree that having a 1 second global CD is perfect. I am looking into changing my gemming for spirit. What im thinking with regen anyways is that if I get alot more haste, I will not have to be casting the entire fight and i i will not need the spirit gems because i will cast the hots i need fast enough to stop casting and get some regen out of the 5secon rule thingy. Does this idea that with more haste, you can get off your casts fast enough where you won't need to worry about havng lots of "mana regen while casting" because i willl be able to stop casting and get some of the larger regen from "mana regen while not casting". If you by chance have a link to some WWS that i can look at, please let me know.

You also mentioned int, should i look to gem spell pwr/int instead of my spirit gems or just spell power.
If you agree that having a 1 sec GCD is perfect, then why don't you have enough haste to get it? You are way below the soft cap especially with your spec.
No, having more haste does not mean you should have more time to NOT heal. It allows you to heal for more in the same amount of time. You should not be standing there not casting for 5 sec during any actual combat(excluding times like in between mimiron phases for example) because there is always something to do. And when Int was mentioned he meant that he would never gem 16 spirit gems unless he had more int than spirit. You should replace all your 16 spirit with 9 SP 8 spirit. Replacing the 16 spirit in your chest with 19 SP would be a good idea since you do not need the haste rating bonus. You should also replace your meta with the insightful because that will give more regen than all of your spirit gems combined, 60-100mp5 vs 25 SP. 69 SP to staff? you need 81. You have more than enough points in subtlety so you should also replace your cloak enchant to 23 haste. And as stated above haste is our 2nd best throughput stat so having more than it takes to cap your GCD is not a bad idea at all. You should be gemming for straight spellpower and especially shouldn't be gemming 16 spirit gems.

Last edited by cuddlekin : 05/26/09 at 1:48 AM.

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Old 05/25/09, 9:39 PM   #582
cuddlekin
Von Kaiser
 
cuddlekin's Avatar
 
Worgen Druid
 
Scilla
Originally Posted by Fiarce View Post
Also, has anyone assessed the incoming Jewelcrafting Nerf? I am wondering if Blacksmithing is going to be the way to go after this next patch (Provided you can find yourself a nice Runed Stormjewel for min/maxing).
All you are losing is the prismatic quality. You are not losing any of the added Spellpower that the 3 gems give you. JC will still give more Spellpower than BS. For yourself, you would have to replace the prismatic in your gloves with a 9 SP 8 Spirit gem to meet the meta requirement and move the prismatic to the legs. You would lose your chest's socket bonus of 4 Haste Rating as well as 10 SP switching the gem to 9 SP 8 Spirit. -10 SP, -4 Haste Rating for you.

Last edited by cuddlekin : 05/25/09 at 10:14 PM.

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Old 05/27/09, 8:20 AM   #583
DirkyD
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Thunderhorn (EU)
Originally Posted by cuddlekin View Post
All you are losing is the prismatic quality. You are not losing any of the added Spellpower that the 3 gems give you. JC will still give more Spellpower than BS. For yourself, you would have to replace the prismatic in your gloves with a 9 SP 8 Spirit gem to meet the meta requirement and move the prismatic to the legs. You would lose your chest's socket bonus of 4 Haste Rating as well as 10 SP switching the gem to 9 SP 8 Spirit. -10 SP, -4 Haste Rating for you.
I have 3 items of gear which hold non-red sockets, which give +sp bonus's.

By having to replace them with correct coloured gems, both to meet the socket bonus, and now to meet the meta, I lose about 30 ish spell power from this change.

I run at about +2700sp raid buffed so its a ~1% decrease in spell power.

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Old 05/27/09, 10:53 AM   #584
Lurchington
King Hippo
 
Lurchington's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Vanguardor View Post
I am rather confused. Recently I was using Rawr to compare gear for different specs. I was rather surprised that for both specs, one being single target focus and the other being hot raid healing, it said that Int was by far the most important stat I needed. It would gem yellows with the Brilliant Autumns Glow, reds with Luminous Monarch Topaz, and blues with Seer's Forest Emerald, 8 Int and 8 Spirit. Now I have always gemmed to maximize spellpower, using Runed for red, Luminous for yellow and Purified for blues. Is mana really that much of an issue or am I missing something? Are you suppose to have over 1000 Int before worrying about the other stats? I mean I understand that int increases your mana regen through Replenishment, but I had always seen and done better gears/gemming for max Spellpower.
There's already been an answer as to Rawr, but I'm finding myself in the same position.

As a holy priest (My Naxx25 main), there was mostly a focus on Intellect until ~22k mana, then haste/crit, then SP. I started gearing that way as a Tree Druid, and my personal goal was to get through a medium length battle (in 25s) without using my innervate (so I can have it as an emergency for someone else).

I have around 1000 int right now (my armory is fishing gear, so I'm guessing) and it feels right, so I'm getting back to SP.

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Old 05/27/09, 5:30 PM   #585
cuddlekin
Von Kaiser
 
cuddlekin's Avatar
 
Worgen Druid
 
Scilla
Originally Posted by Lurchington View Post
There's already been an answer as to Rawr, but I'm finding myself in the same position.

As a holy priest (My Naxx25 main), there was mostly a focus on Intellect until ~22k mana, then haste/crit, then SP. I started gearing that way as a Tree Druid, and my personal goal was to get through a medium length battle (in 25s) without using my innervate (so I can have it as an emergency for someone else).

I have around 1000 int right now (my armory is fishing gear, so I'm guessing) and it feels right, so I'm getting back to SP.
You should never itemize your gear based on the fact that you won't use your own innervate. Innervate is an integral part of our own personal mana regen. Every other healer has their own version of innervate AND they have more than one way to regen mana(crits + Mp5/spirit) so they shouldn't need an Innervate. Also, priest itemization is vastly different from druid itemization so I wouldn't suggest trying to base what to do with your druid off of what you did for your priest.

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