Restoration Itemization - Page 41

cuddlekin · 06/16/09, 9:07 AM

chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner
Non-25 Hard Mode compilation. Does include 10 man hard modes, but those are really easy to get.

bluree · 06/16/09, 1:01 PM

Why spec CF with 459 haste? And those set pieces are 25m...

Also [Fire Orchid Signet] is better than [Glowing Ring of Reclamation]

Jurik · 06/16/09, 1:33 PM

The spec is 459 haste with CF because there are only 4 points spent in GotEM. Personally, I'd rather take 5 in GotEM and pick up 3/3 Revitalize than spend 4 talent points to free up the 1 point spent in GotEM.

Mazzarus · 06/16/09, 1:53 PM

Originally Posted by bluree

Why spec CF with 459 haste? And those set pieces are 25m...

Also [Fire Orchid Signet] is better than [Glowing Ring of Reclamation]

Shroud of Alteration - Item - World of Warcraft seems better also as a haste alternative.

Mazzarus · 06/16/09, 2:01 PM

Originally Posted by Cathiecj

Is there an Ulduar non-hardmode list made?

I have been pretty happy using this loot rank which you can use for a non-hardmode list:

Loot Rank

These weights were taken from earlier in this thread.

Allinone · 06/16/09, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by Mazzarus

I have been pretty happy using this loot rank which you can use for a non-hardmode list:

Loot Rank

These weights were taken from earlier in this thread.

My earlier list was decent, but I didn't have a good way to calculate Haste and Crit into the equation. Using Paininabox's equations which he made for upcoming revisions to his restoration spread sheet, I ended up with a much more reliable way to string Haste and Crit into the mix. In this list haste and crit more accurately reflect their value. This list assumes you've passed the softcap on haste (359), which should be true for a BiS pre hardmode list. I've still scaled all throughput values down by the same margin, as reportedly hardmodes are fairly mana intensive.

Allinone's Latest Revised Resto Druid Loot Rankings

The largest difference you will see is that secondary throughput statistics (haste, Crit) are valued much higher than they were before. I cannot take credit for finding these values, as the bulk to the work was done by Paininabox. I have assumed a HoT heavy rotation (Rejuv + Wild Growth make up 75% of the total healing done).

Edit: Also, keep in mind that Lootrank doesn't even try to calculate the benefit of a set bonus into the equation. This is a list that is based completely on general mana regen and spell throughput. The bonuses on both T7 and T8 gear should mkae them much better than listed

Jurik · 06/16/09, 3:56 PM

Originally Posted by Allinone

My earlier list was decent, but I didn't have a good way to calculate Haste and Crit into the equation. Using Paininabox's equations which he made for upcoming revisions to his restoration spread sheet, I ended up with a much more reliable way to string Haste and Crit into the mix. In this list haste and crit more accurately reflect their value. This list assumes you've passed the softcap on haste (359), which should be true for a BiS pre hardmode list. I've still scaled all throughput values down by the same margin, as reportedly hardmodes are fairly mana intensive.

Just to summarize, here's the values your lootrank is using:
MP5:1
SP:0.8
Int: 0.549
Spi: 0.531
Haste: 0.351
Crit: 0.138

At least for 10-man hard modes, I have found that a 1:0.8 ratio between longevity and throughput is a bit heavy on MP5. I think a ratio of 1:0.9 may be a bit better, especially when using Spark of Hope which adds a phenomenal amount of longevity.

Actually, it would be ideal if we could get the valuation of int/spi/haste/crit in terms of the value of SP and MP5. Can you post or link the math you used to come up with the above numbers?

Sheshonk · 06/16/09, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by Jurik

Just to summarize, here's the values your lootrank is using:
MP5:1
SP:0.8
Int: 0.549
Spi: 0.531
Haste: 0.351
Crit: 0.138

At least for 10-man hard modes, I have found that a 1:0.8 ratio between longevity and throughput is a bit heavy on MP5. I think a ratio of 1:0.9 may be a bit better, especially when using Spark of Hope which adds a phenomenal amount of longevity.

Actually, it would be ideal if we could get the valuation of int/spi/haste/crit in terms of the value of SP and MP5. Can you post or link the math you used to come up with the above numbers?

Yeah I'm really curious as to why spirit is rated so high. I was under the impression int gave back roughly double the mana regen. I realize spirit grants SP as well, but that shouldn't make it as competitive of a stat as listed.

Jurik · 06/16/09, 5:29 PM

Originally Posted by Sheshonk

Yeah I'm really curious as to why spirit is rated so high. I was under the impression int gave back roughly double the mana regen. I realize spirit grants SP as well, but that shouldn't make it as competitive of a stat as listed.

Well, we can calculate this pretty easily. Mathing it out, I get the following:

Int gives us more mana in several ways:
* More MP from replenishment
* More initial MP, which we will represent by calculating the amount of MP5 we would need to recover the same MP over the length of the fight
* More MP from spirit regeneration with intensity

Spirit only gives us mana in one way, with the recent change to innervate:
* More MP from spirit regeneration with intensity

We also have to keep in mind that 1 point of raw int is actually worth more than that, due to Kings and IMotW. I'll, showing my work in case I make a mistake or omit something. Please point out if you see any mistakes in my math or assumptions!

int_mod is usually = 1.10 * 1.02
spi_mod is usually = 1.15 * 1.10 * 1.02

actual_int = int_mod * int
actual_spirit = spi_mod * spi
base_regen = 0.003345   (this is 0.6 * 0.005575 since patch 3.1)
mana_pool = int_mod * int * 15 + 3496 + mana_bonuses
MP5 due to replenishment: 0.0125 * replenishment_uptime * mana_pool
MP5 per int due to  80% uptime replenishment: 0.15 * int_mod

Equivalent MP5 per int due to increased initial mana pool: 15 * int_mod / (12 * fight_length)

MP5 from spirit regen: intensity_percent * 5 * sqrt(int_mod * int) * spi_mod * spi * base_regen
MP5 per int due to increased spirit regen: 0.5 * 5 * [0.5 / sqrt(int_mod*int)] * int_mod * spi_mod * spi * base_regen
= 1.25 * .003345 * int_mod  * actual_spirit / sqrt( actual_int )
= 0.00418125 * int_mod * actual_spirit / sqrt( actual_int )

MP5 per spirit due to increased spirit regen: 2.5*sqrt( actual_int )*spi_mod*base_regen
= 0.0083625 * sqrt(actual_int)*spi_mod

To summarize, mp5 gained due to one point of int is 
0.15 * int_mod + 15 * int_mod / (12 * fight_length) + 0.00418125 * int_mod * actual_spirit / sqrt(actual_int)

mp5 gained due to one point of spirit is
.0083625 * sqrt(actual_int)*spi_mod

Plug in numbers for the variables and you will see exactly how good int and spirit are for longevity at your current gear level. For example, at 1200 int / 1400 spirit, with kings, IMotW and Living Spirit, and an 8 minute fight:

MP5 from 1 int: 0.533211658
MP5 from 1 spirit: 0.373781198

So, under these conditions, 1 point of spirit is about 70% as effective as 1 point of int for longevity purposes alone. Of course, it's important to remember that Spirit also converts to spellpower at a rate of 1 raw spirit -> .193545 spellpower, assuming Kings, IMotW, Living Spirit. Since 1 point of spellpower is assumed to be equivalent in power to 0.8 MP5 (this is a reasonable point to debate), we should add 0.8 *.193545 = .154836 to the value of a single point of spirit. As you can see, this makes spirit very competitive with int (and even moreso if you favor SP higher than 0.8 MP5)

cuddlekin · 06/16/09, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by bluree

Why spec CF with 459 haste? And those set pieces are 25m...

Also [Fire Orchid Signet] is better than [Glowing Ring of Reclamation]

Thank you. Forgot about that one. Fixed.
Because haste is our 2nd best throughtput stat other than Spellpower. Faster Nourishes is not a bad thing. And as for revitalize, I make our 2nd tree take that so I can get living seed because I'm a meanie like that.

Vazu · 06/16/09, 6:39 PM

Originally Posted by cuddlekin

Thank you. Forgot about that one. Fixed.
Because haste is our 2nd best throughtput stat other than Spellpower. Faster Nourishes is not a bad thing. And as for revitalize, I make our 2nd tree take that so I can get living seed because I'm a meanie like that.

Revitalize is ~ 15% (30% with 2 Druids who have it, etc) as effective as Replenishment on most fights. You're giving up an aweful lot for your raid not having it.

Romiress · 06/17/09, 1:25 PM

Comparing Improved Moonkin Aura and Swift Ret Aura as a tree - Moonkin Aura specifically says Haste, while Swift ret specifies Melee/Spell/ranged speed.

Is this an oversight, and both are really 3% haste and effect the GCD? Or is Moonkin more valuble for hastecapping as a druid?

Allinone · 06/17/09, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by Jurik

Just to summarize, here's the values your lootrank is using:
MP5:1
SP:0.8
Int: 0.549
Spi: 0.531
Haste: 0.351
Crit: 0.138

At least for 10-man hard modes, I have found that a 1:0.8 ratio between longevity and throughput is a bit heavy on MP5. I think a ratio of 1:0.9 may be a bit better, especially when using Spark of Hope which adds a phenomenal amount of longevity.

Actually, it would be ideal if we could get the valuation of int/spi/haste/crit in terms of the value of SP and MP5. Can you post or link the math you used to come up with the above numbers?

Thanks for answering that for me Jurik. In tems of pure mana regeneration, Int is much better than Spirit. As a combined stat however, spirit becomes very competitve

The Math itself gets pretty complicated, and sadly I cannot take credit for any of it. As I said before, Paininabox has done all of the heavy lifting.

Paininabox Resto Speadsheet Thread

In post 6 he lists a link to his healing power stat derivations. I would warn you to stay clear unless you have time to read through 12 pages of equations and an advanced degree in mathematics, as it does get a bit technical. I've glanced through them and they seem solid, although I haven't gone through them line by line at this point. In any case I have those formula's in a spreadsheet, which was used to calculate these values. The end goal is/was to create a dynamic, fluid upgrade list for each druid based on their gear. While changing any individual statistic will change each value slightly, it is still very useful as a guide for creating a close approximation for a BiS gearing list.

I made it a bit hasty, basically using my gearing as a guideline, which admittedly is far from BiS. Here is a slight tweaking of it, using the following stat weight/play styles as a guideline. Assuming full raids buffs,

Stats:
Int: 1350
Spirit: 1350
Spell Power: 3020
Crit: 14.65%
Haste: 360

Spell Selection:
Nourish: 10%
Lifebloom: 9%
Rejuvenation: 50%
Regrowth: 6%
Healing Touch: 0%
Wild Growth: 25%

Mana Regen Values: (Assumes 80% uptime on Replenish, 8 minute fight)
Mp5: 1
Int: .504
Spirit: .388

Spell Power Values:
Spell Power: 1
Spirit: .2 (For Spell Power)
Int: .067 (For Crit)
Crit Rating: .191
Haste Rating: .438

Combined Values: (Assuming a 1 mp5 -> .8 SP conversion)
Mp5: 1
Spell Power: .8
Spirit: .548
Int: .557
Crit: .152
Haste: .350

Loot Ranking Link

Feel free to tweak these as needed (mp5 -> SP conversion) or post tweaks you would suggest from end game raiding experience as far as my parameters go.

Advanced disclaimer: While I realize that on most fights, Nourish + Living seed will not make up 10% of our total healing, I felt it necessary to leave our most used direct healing spell in the mix.

goodolarchie · 06/19/09, 6:35 PM

Originally Posted by Allinone

Mp5: 1
Spell Power: .8
Spirit: .548
Int: .557
Crit: .152
Haste: .350

I approve of your numbers! Even if you completely devalue crit or mp5 for maximum HoT throughput, the item ranking generally stays the same. Plus, we should really only be looking at 1 or 2 slots having MP5 on them, namely [Starshine Circle] and [Constellus].

Jurik · 06/19/09, 8:01 PM

Just to follow up here, I took a look at the healing power derivations and found a few things I had questions about:
* it doesn't list nature's bounty on the Nourish calculation
* it assumes that empowered rejuvenation is additively applied to the spell mod (WowWiki seems to indicate it is applied multiplicatively to the spell mod)
* it assumes genesis, gift of nature, and improved rejuvenation are applied additively with tree of life aura. Is this correct?
* it seems to add the cast time of instants into the duration of the spell, for purposes of calculating EHPS. I thought the cast time should be ignored, as the spell is applied instantly, and haste only affects how soon the next spell can be cast.
* The haste cap at 1.0 seconds doesn't seem to be modeled.

That said, I boiled down the document into a janky spreadsheet and came up with some of my own numbers. Using some reasonable assumptions--particularly, capped haste for HoTs--I got very different numbers:

(Throughput only)
SP: 1
Int: 0.0338
Spi: 0.1941
Haste: 0.00332
Crit: 0.1069

Now I know that my model is lacking in quite a few ways, and I'm working from slightly different assumptions as well. However, one discrepancy leaped out at me: the difference in our valuation of haste is extremely large. Depending on how the spreadsheet you are using addresses the questions above, the emphasis on haste gear may be very, very wrong.

When you think about it, a high emphasis on haste beyond the cap is bizarre: beyond the cap, the stat only affects how quickly the direct portion of Regrowth and Nourish are applied. That's less than 20% of the healing share in your model, yet it's ranked almost half as strong as spellpower which obviously affects 100% of the healing share. Is there an explanation here that I'm missing?