Sinalos

The high haste items that most people have been going with in those slots are the [Helm of Abundant Growth] and using Moonkin Tier gloves [Runetotem's Gloves of Triumph]. Personally as haste affects everything I do, I'm planning on dropping the 4pc in order to get haste capped. It's just personal preference, but I would much rather have consistency in my healing than having the 30% chance that a rejuve tick is going to crit when most rejuve ticks are partially overheal anyway.

 

Fallenangel

Yes, I meant to say 258 items. If there were 258 for gloves and helm too, keeping 4T9 would cost more than was indicated. In the chest slot, you can get a 258 nonset item over your 245 set one.
Another possible update is [Pants of the Soothing Touch] if you forgo T9.

 

Blackpatch

Valid points about gear options in ToC.

I agree that in most fights you'll be doing some tank healing. The nonideality of most fights can be addressed by setting Hamlet's sheet to RJ/RG/Nourish 1 tank and seeing where this opposite "boundary condition" places you. Haste becomes a fairly insignificant contributor to HPS (0.4 HPS). Crit is 1.2 HPS, INT is 0.35 HPS and SP is 1.6 HPS. This actually weakens the argument for breaking 4T9 for haste.

2T10 is weak and does not scale, it's 210.5 HPS. That's worth about 42 haste in the RJ/WG scenario.

Finally your point about losing value from your "existing" SP and haste shows up a mistake I made in the original post. Full buffs actually only contribute about 150 HPS to the 4T9 bonus. Then there's an amount of HPS that actually comes from gear SP, haste, and SPI-SP (through Tree Form) that contribute to more/bigger 4T9 crit effects. I think this HPS is what the increased value of SP and haste is doing.

Something feels off about the math though. If you count up the losses from SP, crit, haste, INT, and SPI for losing 4T9 from a situation of 3500 SP, 400 crit, 500 haste, 1100 INT, 1100 SPI, you get a loss of 2515 HPS. But the spreadsheet only calls this a loss of 1700 HPS for dropping 4T9. Whatever the exact truth is, I think the point stands: 4T9 is not to be dropped lightly.

CONSERVE YOUR RAGE AND LUST

 

cuddlekin

I came up with a list comprised of T9 gear that will be Best In Slot for Icecrown, being that it gets you haste capped with the new GotEM.
BiS for ICC with T9 gear

 

• Arawethion

[Conductive Seal] is better than [Band of the Invoker]. Otherwise, pretty good. A few things that might be relevant:
--[Belt of Pale Thorns] is the same as [Cord of the Tenebrous Mist], but without cloth competition.
--There's a good haste option in [Lightbane Focus], which is important to keep in mind, as you'll probably need it if you can't construct this set perfectly. Notably, if you can't get [Sandals of the Mourning Widow] over cloth-wearers, and have to use [Boots of the Harsh Winter].
--[Cry of the Val'kyr] will be hotly contested by all casters. The next best items are all from Ulduar: [Pendant of Fiery Havoc], [Charm of Meticulous Timing], and [Sapphire Amulet of Renewal].

Also, as noted above, there's still the option to keep 4T9 (which at the moment I think I'm inclined to do). This requires giving up two haste items (hat/gloves). If you do that, you'll definitely want haste items in every other slot, which means [Lightbane Focus] and [Sandals of the Mourning Widow] are important.

Finally, Celestial Focus lower the haste cap from 856 to 735, which is another option to keep in mind. You give up Living Seed, resulting in this build:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
This may be what I use after 3.3, still thinking about it.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

cuddlekin

With my playstyle I could never give up Living Seed. And you do have the option of taking two points out of Tranquil Spirit to get 1% more haste from Celestial Focus, but again I use a heavy Nourish playstyle and thought the 4% mana reduction would serve me better. And I chose the Cord of the Tenbrous Mist because the sockets are better, 10 spirit vs 10 haste(putting you further over the haste cap, and I just prefer more regen as well as the minimal spellpower when compared to the haste.) Also, thanks for heads up about the ring, fixed.
In the spec you suggested you lose 20% healing on nourish...which is a hard pill to swallow.

 

• Arawethion

Don't get your point about Tranquil Spirit and CF. How are the two related? The difficulty in picking up CF is that you need to drop points in Resto tiers 8-11 to get it. Since GOTEM, iTOL, and Revitalize are all very strong and wouldn't be worth dropping for CF, the only option is to give up Living Seed.

Unless you use Nourish/RG instead of Rejuv/WG a huge percentage of the time (like, over half), CF looks better than Living Seed at first glance.

e: I pretty much never cast Nourish now, but the the rare times I do are the reason I picked up 2/2 ET. After 3.3, I'll use it even less because Regrowth will replace it. The spec I linked is anticipating heavy Rejuv/WG usage (just like now), with some small supplementary usage of Regrowth.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

cuddlekin

Tranquil Spirit and CF are not related, I didn't say they were. I was merely pointing out that when I was devising that spec I came up at the end with 2 points to either get 1 in CF or 2 in Tranquil Spirit, I chose Tranquil Spirit.
Why would you replace Nourish with Regrowth? Nourish, at a 1 sec cast, crits for 13k on a tank, and 10k on a raid member, whereas Regrowth takes longer to cast and only crits for 8k. Any time you are called to tank heal you NEED Empowered Touch, not only does it help tremendously with Nourish it also helps even more when you need to NS+HT someone who is about to die(be it the tank or whomever.)

 

• Arawethion

Yes, that's what I'm getting at, I don't see how that could happen. The difficulty with taking CF is that, between 18 points in Balance and 35 points required in Resto tiers 1-7, there's only room for 18 points in Resto tiers 8-11. But pretty much all of the talents in those tiers are very good, and definitely not things you're going to give up for Tranquil Spirit (except maybe Improved Barkskin, but there are still 21 points to spend beyond that). You'd never consider spending additional points in TS once you have the good part of the tree unlocked.

Regrowth also leaves a HoT which is roughly twice the total size of the direct heal. And spreading some healing out over time is generally stronger than dropping it all at once for raid healing purposes. It's probably more worth using currently than people gives it credit for, and a 10% buff from GOTEM next patch is a nice bump.

Will the boost to Regrowth, Nourish will be largely for tank healing. And yes, if I have to tank heal a challenging fight I'd have to respec for ET. That's no different from now--if I have to tank heal a challenging fight I have to respec for Nature's Grace. It never comes up anyway. I switched from mainly playing Moonkin to Resto two months ago and not once have I had to tank heal something serious enough that I felt the need to pick up NG.* In a 25-man with at least 3 non-Druid healers or a 10-man with at least 1 non-Druid healer, I don't see why you'd ever wind up spamming Nourish on a tank.

*One exception maybe, when I was doing 10-man Earth, Wind, and Fire. I was solo-healing Emalon with one tank tanking the boss and all the adds, and was having trouble keeping him up. But, tellingly, instead of having me respec we just swapped assignments so someone far more appropriate could cover that.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Fallenangel

At T9 gear-levels Nourish and regrowth's direct heal heal for roughly the same on a target with no hots. Nourish does have a higher coefficient if you have 2/2 ET so it will widen the somewhat small gap it has now.
Then again, nourish doesn't proc a 27s SMable hot, nor does it gain from NG.
Regrowth is also not haste capped like our other spells. A 1s NGed regrowth is not out of the realm of possibility with 3/3 CF - 1180 haste with raid buffs. Some gear setups thrown around pack close to 900 haste with a few crit items. If the rapid rejuv becomes useful, gearing for haste will boost that as well, whereas gearing for crit will only help nourish.
And as before I will advocate the 2 resto builds mentality. If you're raid healing one time and tank healing on another fight, there's no reason to make compromises by finding a middle road.

 

goodolarchie

I plan on ultimately building 2 sets -
1 pure haste, no t9, possibly t10 pieces. This is for lifebloom-speed hasted rejuvs, could be fun in 10 man.
1 using 4t9, soft haste capped around ~800 with CF, a mixture of good crit+haste (no spirit) items. Will probably include rejuv haste glyph, depending on the fight. Jaraxxus style damage yes, twin valks aura damage no. Good bread and butter healing gear.

 

Fallenangel

This makes no sense to me. For Jaraxxus 4T9 is crap, and you want maximum haste to land fast direct heals or just faster rejuv ticks.
For aura-fights the throughput bonus of 4T9 is much more valuable.

 

• Arawethion

Also, if you manage to get 4T9 and haste cap in the same gearset (which I think isn't doable without haste gems or CF, have to check), I don't see why you'd ever use anything else.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Diba

character planner . 3.3 hastecap(cf) + 4x t9 . chardev seven

This is pretty much the set I'm going to roll with. Only took the 258 pieces with haste on them and the 272 cloak, because they're pretty possible to get. Can't see why you wouldn't take CF, you really don't lose anything.

 

• Arawethion

Yeah, like I said above, I'll probably take CF over Living Seed. Your set is pretty much what I had in mind. Although, same comment as for the last guy--[Conductive Seal] is a touch better than [Band of the Invoker].

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

P4C3M4K3R

This would be nice to have if everyone was so fortunate to get all this gear. Im getting ^, just not Heroic. Going to have to add some sp/haste gems ><. Nice list though.

@Hamlet - The spec you have ^ is what i currently am using aside from 1 talent in threat instead of mana saving nourish. Most fights i go 50% rejuv 30% WG and the rest is split with RG LB and only a few nourishs. I found that switching to nourish and letting my hots fall off hurts the raid more then my 4-5 nourish spams. Without the 4 piece bonus do you think its worth while to pick up living seed?

 

slourette

I am not entirely convinced that the haste cap is as important as everyone else seems to think. Now if Regrowth and Nourish make up somewhere around 20-30% of your healing (this number will go UP, since they are getting buffed by the change to GotEM), as they are for me for most fights except aura fights (Rejuv x 5, WG), these spells proc Nature's grace quite often. If I cast a nourish or a regrowth about once every 4 seconds (which I usually do), they both have around 50% crit, meaning that every 8 seconds, I expect to be haste capped for 3 seconds. This means that haste no longer affects all of my spells, but only 5/8ths (~63%) of my spells. Note that before the patch, haste only affects regrowth and nourish, which I quoted at 20-30% of my spells.

NG was considered a useless talent by many, since everyone was haste capped, but I'm not convinced it is worth dropping a wonderful talent like Living Seed in order to get haste capped, which only becomes more important with the buff to Regrowth, when NG partially accounts for this gap. I am not suggesting that haste is not important, as it will now be our most important secondary stat (SP is still king), so say goodbye to that crit gear; however, I do not see myself digging up talent points to grab CF. Depending on the nature of the raid damage in IC, I may do it anyways, but IMO, this is not a clear decision. Though I have not seen any of the new boss fights, I am under the impression that Blizzard is moving away from fights that can be solved by blanketing rejuvs.

Let me know what you think about this viewpoint.

 

Toadfoot

@Slourette.

I think the reasoning goes somewhat along these lines. Let's suppose 30% of your healing is done by casted heals and 70% is done by hots. Most of the things you give up to get CF effect only your casted heals, except NP if you have it. Getting CF is a buff to 100% of your healing and anything else you do, where the other stuff is only a buff to a small portion of your healing.

 

Fallenangel

That's a pretty bad argument since LS adds quite a punch to nourish and the direct healing of regrowth. CF does affect all your heals but in a rather marginal way.
That said, it's important to note that LS only affects the direct heal of regrowth. When regrowth does a lot of healing, it is on the raid and usually it's the hot that does most of the job. Additionally, spamming nourish on a single target will cause shields to override themselves - this will be less pronounced with the sunwell aura but still. The real value of LS is best judged from actual parses and not theoretical estimates.
The real selling point of skipping CF is being able to also skip NG. More nourish-centered builds will prefer 11/0/60 for ET and TS.

 

Toadfoot

I guess it would depend on what you believe your percentage of direct heals is going to be. For the gentleman above assuming 30% of his heals are direct and he runs a 50% crit rate then yeah LS is probably a better option. What if you only run 10 or 15%? I really doubt that LS is the better option then. As you said checking parses is the way to go. I rarely ever see LS contribute over 3% to my healing.

I just don't believe that adding a "punch" to nourish is anything really useful to most druids healing style. Maybe blizz is changing this in ICC, but I don't know that yet. Isn't 3% haste equivalent to 3% throughput? Having that guaranteed increase seems like a better option than LS, which on some fights may be zero healing.

 

slourette

There's a misconception going around that I would like to clear up. I found it when I was playing around with my spreadsheet. If you have 0 haste rating, then it is true that 1% haste increase your healing by 1%, 2% haste increases you healing by 2%, etc... but suppose you already have 1% haste (40 haste rating). Now getting an additional 40 haste rating does not increase your current healing by 1%, since 1.01 * 1.01 > 1.02. It actually increases your healing by 1.02/1.01 = 1.0099. This effect is more pronounced at high haste ratings. At 20% haste ~ 800 haste rating, % healing = 1%/(1+Haste) = 1%/1.2 = 0.83%.

Having said that, CF and other haste buffs are different, since they are not additive, but multiplicative, so there is a flat 3% increase in spells you can cast from CF.

But we are forgetting the negative impact of haste on regen. The Mp5 used in a healing intensive fight is around 2000 (changes with rotation). If we increase the number of spells used by 3%, We increase our Mp5 used by 60. The spell power it takes to increase healing done (by rejuv) by 3% is about 120 with 3300 SP. Meaning per point (including the wasted one), this talent is worth (40 SP + - 15 MP5).

Now having more haste doesn't force you to use it all of the time. Usually fights have 2-3 phases, where one is significantly more healing intensive that the others. In such a case, you would only use your additional haste in that one phase, where it would go to overheal in the other two. Therefore, I will choose to reduce the regen penalty by a factor of 3.

So it turns out, the regen penalty of haste is not that bad, maybe a 10% reduction to haste's overall value.

Point taken. Until we know how much we are using regrowth in ICC, it's better to just look at the effect on nourish's healing. But keep in mind that if regrowth gets a lot of use, LS just becomes stronger. I do agree that NG is currently a pretty poor talent, but I believe that when we are not haste capped, it becomes a respectable talent, mostly for raid healing. Depending on the nature of the raid damage, I will use nourish on the raid a fair bit, mostly when I don't foresee them taking more damage in the future, or I need a quick small heal.

Even if your nourish is only 15% of your healing, with a crit chance of over 50%, that's about 6% healing from nourish hits, and 9% healing from nourish crits. Living seed increases that crit healing by 30%, which is an overall increase of healing by 2.7%. If nourish is 10% of your healing, you get an increase of 1.8%. Note that these are maximum values (recount will be lower due to overheal) Now CF gives you a maximum of a 3% increase of healing (it will be lower due to overheal as well), which as I already mentioned goes down by a significant factor due to NG uptime, in addition to regen penalties. On a side note, nourish usually has a much lower relative overheal percentage than my other spells, so that additional 2.7% or 1.8% healing is less likely to go to overheal.

IMO, this puts these two talents very close, and my decision will most likely be made by the nature of the fights. The only time where CF wins hands down is in aura fights that are in no way mana limited, since in any mana limited 1 phase fight, haste offers virtually no gain.

 

Fallenangel

I have noticed that when I spam nourish on the tank LS ends up higher on the meters than one would expect by looking at nourish healing. This is obviously because it procs from overheals, and I use it on boring content like Onyxia and ToC-normal, which would increase the overhealing of nourish but not of LS. Still, this tends to happen quite often in more intense situations as well. It does make nourish a nice cushion spell for idle phases, serving as a mini shield (not the most useful use of your mana, but stilll...).

 

teneran

This is nonsense. Being able to cast faster doesn't "hurt your regen". Sure, casting faster uses more mana per second but it also heals more per second which is obviously beneficial. No one ever died on a raid because you healed them too quickly, the converse has happened however. The ability to heal more quickly is always beneficial. Managing your mana on fights is part of the equation but having too much haste isn't ever the cause of running out of mana.

 

Toadfoot

If mana is not an issue and for most druids it is not, then applying a regen penalty to haste is not fair. Mana is not what keeps druids from increasing their healing. Of course, if 30% of your healing is coming from nourish then yes you may be having mana issues, but that is just a choice in your given style.

 

Fallenangel

The 5-man HC trinket - Ephemeral Snowflake - Items - Sigrie - seems quite interesting if it procs on full overheal hots. In a 5 rejuv / 1 WG rotation, this can be worth 660mp5.
It seems very lackluster in just about any case, though. Proccing from JoL aside, anyway...
Also not surprisingly gear is riddled with crit, including 3/5 set pieces.