Holy Shock is considerably less than that. Looking at my last raid, my average non-crit Holy Shock was 3124. Even assuming full spellpower gemming in a Flash of Light build, a non-crit Holy Shock still isn't going to be enough by itself.
I don't use GHT simply because we don't use druids for dedicated targets. Instead we have 2 discs priests shielding 2 targets each and druids doing rejuvs on all targets. The 5th target is covered by a dedicated healer. Also 8K for GHT sounds high to me, but I will have to check it at home.
Osseric - surely that is the average effective heal. As you are aware, this doesn't matter at all for the situation we're talking about.
Holy Shock is considerably less than that. Looking at my last raid, my average non-crit Holy Shock was 3124. Even assuming full spellpower gemming in a Flash of Light build, a non-crit Holy Shock still isn't going to be enough by itself.
You're doing something VERY wrong if your holy shock only heals for 3k. Are you sure you're not looking at an average that WoL gives? It only averages the effective healing done, so any overhealing would skew the average.
I don't use GHT simply because we don't use druids for dedicated targets. Instead we have 2 discs priests shielding 2 targets each and druids doing rejuvs on all targets. The 5th target is covered by a dedicated healer. Also 8K for GHT sounds high to me, but I will have to check it at home.
Osseric - surely that is the average effective heal. As you are aware, this doesn't matter at all for the situation we're talking about.
GHT does heal for a little over 8K (obviously specced ET). I remember speccing for H Anub, picking up 3/3 Lunar Guidance however while running this glyph, with 3/3 Imp ToL and all the increased works in Resto. W/O Lunar Guidance, and 3k UB (caster) spell power, my GHT still heals for over 8k.
And yeah, Holy Shock on my 2.2k SP Holy Paladin runs about 5K+ noncrit UB, with a little over 8K critical. In raid setting it is close to 10k Critical. He is low on SP compared to a lot, because again, he is an alt. So in 245+ AVG gear, I would assume a higher HS hit.
Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity.
Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but my HS's were hitting for slightly under 5.8k and critting for 8.5k. I was sitting at around 2460 SP unbuffed at the time. One thing to consider is that, while that initial heal probably isn't enough unless it crits, a paladin can fit in two or three heals much easier than a non-GHT druid can, if they FoL -> HS -> potential instant FoL from IoL proc.
That said, at least from our experience, paladins are much more effective on the tanks. We run a seven healer setup, typically two HL paladins, a druid, two priests, and two shaman, with a single add tank, with the paladins on the tanks and the remainder of the healers assigned to their PC targets. Perhaps our tanks take spikier damage than most, especially the add tank, but I don't see how a druid could be just as effective on the tanks for an extended period of time. My druid's gear is behind the curve since I stopped playing him for awhile, but I know that I cannot sustain nourish spam in addition to full HoT's for nearly as long as my paladin can manage HL spam. (For reference, my druid is Reyvia on Dragonmaw - can't give an armoury link right now because it's down.)
On a slightly different note, for those of you who use one add tank and a single paladin healing both, how much HoT support do you find yourself giving? We've had several potential Insanity runs ruined by one of our tanks, normally the add tank, simply dropping like a stone due to myself and our other paladin inadvertently syncing up our HL's or when one of us had to refresh Beacon/SS/JotP, and I don't know how one could keep up both tanks without significant HoT support. It would be nice to drop down to six healers, but I'm unsure of what, if anything, that would require from our other healers.
I think you're a bit low on SP if you're sitting on 2460 unbuffed, most the paladins I see are easily at the 3k mark unbuffed. Though most paladins I see are double solace, I can't check your armoury so I can't see what you're wearing.
The thing about putting druids on the tanks is they don't need to spam Nourish, they can react to spikes with Swiftmend and spam nourish only when Swiftmend is on cooldown, making them much more efficient on tanks that take spikey damage. Most tanks are sitting on 55-60k hp and druids simply don't heal for enough to cover this, but when they're avoidance tanking the tank is more likely on 35-40k hp, making the reactive healing of Swiftmend several fold more effective. It's a rare situation, but it's one that suits what is normally a druids weakness (tank healing) down to a tee. It's so rare for me to need anything but HoTs on the add tanks when they don't take unlucky RNG spikes that I've actually managed to keep all 3 tanks up after my druid co-healer has died; I was just lucky that no tank took a spike within 15 seconds of each other, I don't advise a single druid on 3 tanks as a strategy :p
There is always a chance that even with a lot of healing using the 1 tank strategy that your tank will just implode. There's absolutely nothing you can do about this other than stack more armour and block rating, but even with the best gear possible there's still quite a chance to just implode. It's why most guilds don't use 1tank strategy when going for Insanity.
Some guy there with a 7.3k average on Holy Shock hits the majority of which I assume were on that druid tank, which didn't take Guardian Spirit and only used Frenzied Regeneration once.
When talking about Holy Shock, one thing to note is the difference in spec's. I assume your running 17-20 prot, with 5/5 divinity. However, Seal of Light glyph makes a big difference, which Dragon in the above parse is using (at least from what I can tell, he was using Seal of Light, only makes sense to me)
Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity.
Here is some information I calculated for myself on the value of spellpower vs. haste on rejuvenation through Icecrown progression in 3.3. The data is in row form, with graphs on the graph page. I use RAWR for gear upgrades, but this was a good way to see the effect of haste on rejuvenation for me, so someone else might think so as well. It does not take into account all levels of spellpower for each increment of haste, and vice versa.
Conclusions:
- 1 point of haste gives marginally higher output than 1 point of spellpower for 1 rejuvenation indefinitely.
- 1 point of haste gives marginally more raid throughput up to the GCD cap, at which point raid throughput is also capped for haste.
The 5-man HC trinket - Ephemeral Snowflake - Items - Sigrie - seems quite interesting if it procs on full overheal hots. In a 5 rejuv / 1 WG rotation, this can be worth 660mp5.
It seems very lackluster in just about any case, though. Proccing from JoL aside, anyway...
Also not surprisingly gear is riddled with crit, including 3/5 set pieces.
As far as I can tell, it does proc from overheal.
I just picked this up out of curiosity today after the patch hit, and putting lb, rejuv, and wg on my 5 man group caused so many "+11 mana" to pop up that they started overlapping. As a regen trinket, I have a feeling that this will probably outperform Spark of Hope in addition to its fairly hefty on use haste effect. The thing sounds kind of ridiculous for rejuv/wg spamming situations (like twin val'kyr, etc) and I'd love to see some input or theorycrafting from other druids who picked this up on how much regen this thing is actually providing (I've seen estimates all over the board; quoted poster's 660 mp5, wowhead commenter's 495 mp5, etc).
It's a 100% proc on all hot ticks? I'll add it to the sheet. Will be very good regen (I'm sure there's some place we'll want to use a regen trinket).
I can already see it useful Saurfang. If you see my PvE healing discussion post, I was rolling lifeblooms on 5 different targets by the end of the fight (not blooming) with rejuvenation as well on each of them. 5 lifeblooms per second is 55 MP1 with that trinket, 275 MP5 + the WG and rejuves going around. It may proc of Trauma, but I doubt it seeing how it is one of your spells and not items.
I'm sitting at 478 haste right now in mostly ToGC 10/25 man gear. I've been trying to gather more haste gear before 3.3 but just couldn't get the drops I needed. If I can get a good 1-handed haste weapon, I'll be able to get that much closer to the haste cap, but even then I'll still be far off.
I've been very strongly considering gemming haste, at least until I get enough haste gear to compensate for my lack of haste. I don't think it would be wise to gem for haste as aggressively as gemming for spell power was pre-3.3, but I may gem red sockets with 12-sp/10-haste when going for a socket bonus and yellow sockets (what few I have) with 20-haste. I figure that with my current gear I can gain about 200 haste gemming this way. (Gemming full haste would net me about 360 haste, but obviously that wouldn't be a wise way to gem.)
I consider not having a 1 second GCD so great a hindrance that it may outweigh the need to maximize spell power.
I'm sitting at 478 haste right now in mostly ToGC 10/25 man gear. I've been trying to gather more haste gear before 3.3 but just couldn't get the drops I needed. If I can get a good 1-handed haste weapon, I'll be able to get that much closer to the haste cap, but even then I'll still be far off.
I've been very strongly considering gemming haste, at least until I get enough haste gear to compensate for my lack of haste. I don't think it would be wise to gem for haste as aggressively as gemming for spell power was pre-3.3, but I may gem red sockets with 12-sp/10-haste when going for a socket bonus and yellow sockets (what few I have) with 20-haste. I figure that with my current gear I can gain about 200 haste gemming this way. (Gemming full haste would net me about 360 haste, but obviously that wouldn't be a wise way to gem.)
I consider not having a 1 second GCD so great a hindrance that it may outweigh the need to maximize spell power.
Any thoughts on this?
Was just about to ask the same question really.
My gut instinct tells me that haste is a more valuable stat than spellpower up until the 1 sec gcd cap, but I may be wrong. I'd really like to see some numbers on it, though.
I'd say it depends on what fights you do and how you do them. The first four bosses in ICC are rather trivial and can probably be done in any gear setup, considering that most kills suffered from lags that set the gcd at something like 2-3s...It was also pretty hard to determine a proper healing strategy since it was mostly about trying to guess whether that heal you cast actually went off or not.
Basically it all boils done to what content you are on. Most guilds will continue to do TocHC at least for the 4 weeks until the first gate is lifted. For both Anub and Twins HC, a 1s gcd is quite handy so if you're working/doing them I'd get more haste. On Anub especially it can easier to do because you (depending on strategy) don't want 4T9 and so can mix offset and older tier items. If you have the emblems you can get the nontier helm and the moonkin tier gloves.
I can confirm the trinket (+11 mana on heal) procs on every single HoT tick, over heal or not. It even procs for each application of Wild Growth cast with the glyph (6). 462 mana returned for a 600 mana spell is a bit crazy. If I cast Wild Growth on myself (and 5 other people) and Revitalize procs just once, it gives almost as much mana as it takes.
Originally Posted by Fallenangel
I'd say it depends on what fights you do and how you do them. The first four bosses in ICC are rather trivial and can probably be done in any gear setup, considering that most kills suffered from lags that set the gcd at something like 2-3s...It was also pretty hard to determine a proper healing strategy since it was mostly about trying to guess whether that heal you cast actually went off or not.
I agree totally with the sentiment in this post, there's no real progress to be done within the next month so use this time to get your gear ready. However, for gemming new gear, I'm very strongly under the suspicion that before the haste cap, +12 sp +10 haste is better than 23 sp when viewing the spreadsheet posted on this page as it suggests below the haste cap, dropping 20 haste is worse than dropping 22 spell power (10 haste vs 11 sp) EDIT: This only takes into account Rejuv.
EDIT#2: Someone check this, because I'm not confident in my ability to use this spreadsheet. The way the author figured out haste with buffs seems wrong to me.
It may be a direct HPS throughput upgrade/increase to gem spellpower. However, with the introduction of T9 months back, we started bringing up the term Valuable healing over Effective healing. Valuable is more of a personal weight. When all healing counts, mainly during progression, not all Effective healing is necessary by us druids (depending on our roll). I personally value haste (even more so now to the cap) more than spellpower. Not enough to gem 20 haste religiously, but to balance it in to get enough to still be effective. 1 Second GCD, 1 Second Nourish is a great place to be. I made a post in another thread about how I started gemming, Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion and being at GCD cap with 3/3 CF, I did find myself using nourish a little more now that it was at 1 second (w/o NG). I am 3 under the cap currently while still keeping 4PCT9. I raided 7 above the cap for the 4 bosses of ICC.
I wouldn't waste socket bonus's over gemming haste. I wouldn't go all out in regemming if the content your in doesn't call for it. If you can keep farming ToGC 25 without changing your setup completely, wait on some haste gear to drop.
edit: Directed more towards Dendrik, and others who are asking about gemming haste like a Restoration Shaman.
Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity.
EDIT#2: Someone check this, because I'm not confident in my ability to use this spreadsheet. The way the author figured out haste with buffs seems wrong to me.
Feel free to provide feedback and scrutinize what I wrote. The multiplicative nature of percentage haste gains is counterintuitive, but that is the way Blizzard treats them. That's the reason the GCD cap is 856. 856 rating is 26.1% haste.
Translates to:
1.261(Haste%gear)*1.05(WoA)*1.03(Moonkin Aura)*1.10(GotEM)=~1.5
1.5-1=.5
.5*100=50%
There will be slight discrepancies in the values of 1 haste or 1 spellpower since I didn't compare each across all possible values of the other, and I suspect each would increase the value of the other. However, for comparison of the two, I believe it is quite accurate.
Last edited by Carnathagia : 12/10/09 at 12:44 PM.
Reason: zomg™ font size error
Haste: TreeCalcs is good for answering this sort of question (how much value do I get from various stats?). Below haste cap, haste does seem to add more throughput to basic Rejuv/WG use than spellpower. I'd also recommend gemming it to cap, as I've discussed before, because that can give you stronger focus/spread options with Rapid Rejuv.
Snowflake: Thanks for that confirmation. Now that someone's said clearly how it works, I'll put up a spreadsheet update showing the (comical) amount of mana it returns.
Last night we tried Dedicated Insanity in ToGC (10 man obviously) for the first time. Between the changes to GotEM and using gear with less haste than usual, I definitely saw my effectiveness go down on both the twins and Anub. We three heal with myself (resto druid), a resto shaman, and a holy priest. Having a higher GCD definitely threw off my rhythm as well as slowed down my healing at critical times. The point is, haste is very likely going to be an important stat (as most of us thought) moving forward.
We also cleared the first four bosses (10 man) in ICC last night and certainly until the next 3 are unlocked, gear will not be critical. If the difficultly of the rest of the normal bosses in ICC is similar to the first 4, it's not going to matter much until heroics are unlocked.
so, the trinket effectively returns
- 110 mana for each "fresh" lifebloom
- 11 mana for each nourish/switfmend/healing touch (+11 seed)
- 66 for each "fresh" rejuvenation
- 330 for each "fresh" regrowth
- 66*nr_targets for each wild growth
- 44*nr_targets for each tranquility
I wouldn't waste socket bonus's over gemming haste. I wouldn't go all out in regemming if the content your in doesn't call for it. If you can keep farming ToGC 25 without changing your setup completely, wait on some haste gear to drop.
It also highly depends on your healing style.
If you are a RJ -> WG -> LB healer like yourself, then getting Celestial Focus is worth getting over Living Seed and Empowered Touch since you don't cast many direct heals. Getting Celestial Focus also allows you to forgo gemming for haste.
On the other hand if you are a RJ -> WG -> Nourish healer like I am then getting Celestial Focus comes at too high a cost and gemming haste is the way to go until our new gear lets us do otherwise.
In both specs and heal types, the value of Nature's Grace has been diminished greatly this patch. This is mainly due to the fact that a 1s GCD (which everyone should be aiming for) means a 1s Nourish.
Quick question. What is the Haste cap? Like, when is it not worth as much as SP. (Because I gather that after this patch Haste > SP). I scanned a couple pages but didn't see a number, just that this was the case. Thanks.
If you are a RJ -> WG -> LB healer like yourself, then getting Celestial Focus is worth getting over Living Seed and Empowered Touch since you don't cast many direct heals. Getting Celestial Focus also allows you to forgo gemming for haste.
On the other hand if you are a RJ -> WG -> Nourish healer like I am then getting Celestial Focus comes at too high a cost and gemming haste is the way to go until our new gear lets us do otherwise.
In both specs and heal types, the value of Nature's Grace has been diminished greatly this patch. This is mainly due to the fact that a 1s GCD (which everyone should be aiming for) means a 1s Nourish.
I completely agree to personal healing style changing the outlook on this subject. I have been using Regrowth as my "flash heal" to say, so I don't need ET, and never really picked up LS. In fact, I debated glyphing it. I use lifebloom on tanks/debuff targets. If I were under 725 Haste, I would change my [Runed Cardinal Ruby] to [Reckless Ametrine], and if I were still under, I would change my [Reckless Ametrine] yellow sockets to [Quick King's Amber].
One solid way to pick up a good chunk of haste is [Battlemaster's Vivacity]. 1650, get a DK to carry you in two's. The use is also undeniable, say during vortex phases, PC, Frost Breath, Faction Champions in general, a bad legion flame. Or any of the targeted abilities in ICC.
128 Haste = 6.4 Gems. 6.4 x 23 = ~147 SP. 147 Spellpower trinket, just for comparisons sake of re-gemming 20 haste. I could see not replacing the 2 solaces, IDS, and the new 25 man IC trinket, considering the solaces bring great regen along with sufficient spellpower. Maybe Eye of the Broodmother as well, if you have 4PCT9.
As many of you have accurately stated, the only real reason to care about being haste capped right now is ToGC, which my guild has on farm, but which provides enough upgrades that it's worth doing each week.
We opted to wait on this week's ToGC Anub kill for Monday (with 50 attempts left, it seemed unwise to risk wiping to lag/DC and a few other technical issues that we had been having on earlier bosses). So I still have this weekend to get my gemming in order for the fight.
For Anub, not being haste capped seems like a really bad idea. After some more careful analysis and with your guys' advice, I've decided that I'll most likely have my gear regemmed by Monday.
Quick question. What is the Haste cap? Like, when is it not worth as much as SP. (Because I gather that after this patch Haste > SP). I scanned a couple pages but didn't see a number, just that this was the case. Thanks.
From the Resto PVE thread:
To get down to a 1s GCD with 5/5 GOTEM:
both haste buffs (8%)
736 haste rating (3/3 CF) (old was 253)
856 haste rating (0/3 CF) (old was 359)
WoA alone (5%)
856 haste rating (3/3 CF) (old was 359)
980 haste rating (0/3 CF) (old was 468)
Moonkin/Swift Ret alone (3%)
936 haste rating (3/3 CF) (old was 430)
1063 haste rating (0/3 CF) (old was 541)
no haste buffs
1063 haste rating (3/3 CF) (old was 541)
1193 haste rating (0/3 CF) (old was 655)
12/07/09, 12:40 PM
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