Elitist Jerks Restoration Itemization

12/08/08, 1:43 PM   #61
tertribus
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Cho'gall (EU)
 Originally Posted by uliko Most casting time reduction talents are before haste (like naturalist, mages imp. fire/frostbolt and starlight wrath), but for some reason GotEM is not, hence the need to only reduce the GCD to 1.3 from 1.5 instead of 1.2 to 1 with haste.
there is any blue post who confirme that ?

if what you say is true, your calculations are not correct either. I first reduce the GCD with haste and then I apply talent to reduce a result 1s. What is:
1 = x * 0,8
with :
x = 1,5 / (1 + (y / 100))

So :
x = 1,25
y = 25% haste (without totem or aura)

with aura + totem : y = 25 - 9,5 = 15,5
Note: Haste rating stacks additively with itself but haste stacks multiplicatively.

Last edited by tertribus : 12/08/08 at 2:03 PM.

 12/08/08, 2:06 PM #62 Rhaegal Don Flamenco   Piju Pandaren Monk   Zul'Jin The math works fine. If you need to reduce the GCD from 1.5 to 1.3, you need: 1.3 = 1.5 / (1 + (y/100)) Solve for y and you get ~15.4% haste. Add in, say, Wrath of Air for a 5% bonus, and you end up with the formula: 1.3 = 1.5 / ( 1.05 * (1 + (y/100)) ) Here, y = 9.9%, which is exactly what ithecho got. Calculations confirmed by third party! If you're still getting something else, you're just making a math error somewhere. Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!
 12/08/08, 2:40 PM #63 Wildspeaker Glass Joe   Wildspeaker Tauren Druid   Staghelm I am just wondering... my healing style, at least while healing a tank is to have a constant of 3 hots on him at all times. Usually not let them go off unless I am spamming nourish during a hard healing spot. In this case, at least untill I acquire 4 pieces of t4 am I to understand that it is better to use rejuv as a heal rather than nourish? Also, as far as gear goes, I feel as though our master looters either have no clue how to loot out healing gear, or am I totally looking at gear wrong because the gear that seems like healing gear is going to many dps instead of healers. Just wondering if this is happening elsewhere due to spellpower or if this is just my guild, I dont think druids need be concerned with crit rating so I tend to let that gear pass, but thats because I rarely cast healing touch or nourish compared to how often I use the others.
12/08/08, 2:54 PM   #64
KrinKer
Von Kaiser

Worgen Druid

Lightbringer
 Originally Posted by Smartiepants As for sapph healing, I would say WG is the best spell for the job, its easy to stack onto many people, I also will throw RG on people who get low, since there is also a solid HoT after that. .
For Sapp I found out that rejuv is MUCH better than Wg mainly because of the range requirement on Wg. I could easily keep Rejuv on 14 people + roll hots on the tank without even having to worry about mana or range (granted my gear is pretty much the best i could find out there but still). I basically negated all the damage coming from the aura while the other healers were able to concentrate on the tank. I found it much much more usefull than Wg (just my opinion btw)

As far as itemization goes I really don't understand why people would want haste. I glyphed healing touch which gives me a >1 sec cast whenever shit hits the fan and use glyphed regrowth for the rest of the direct healing. I know most people don't glyph Ht but I figured that I will never be as good as a pally with Healing Touch so it's best to leave them do what they do best (single target healing) and I can concentrate on other things. Anyways, with a 1 sec cast and regrowth at 1.7 sec cast I really don't see why I would need any more haste especially with GoteM which basically allows me to have 14 rejuv on people (I say I'm pretty close to the Gcd). More than that If a druid went to Nature's grace then Crit rating gives you haste too (I'm really bad at math but I would love to see how much haste a crit% would give with nature's grace, anybody cares to try it). This plus living seed makes crit so much better than haste that I don't really understand why people would go for haste over crit so please someone enlighten me because to me Sp > Crit > spirit > int and the rest of the stats are almost completly useless for me.

 12/08/08, 3:01 PM #65 Wildspeaker Glass Joe   Wildspeaker Tauren Druid   Staghelm I'm seemingly the opposite side of you, as a druid I almost never use healing touch or nourish and even for most heroics I don't even use Rejuv. I barely see a use to crit rating. The whole thing with haste from what I understand is not only does it make your other heals faster if that is needed, but it lowers the global cool down, and if you can hit 1 second its really nice. If you have played a rogue and felt a 1 second global cooldown it is much different than that of a druid. The ability to get more hots on a target faster in case they fall off can make a difference between making the next nourish/healing touch you need to hit to save a tank or not, as well as get wild growths on an entire raid. The 50% crit on Rejuv is enough for me personally, other than that I let my hots do the work, and as far as I know they don't use crit. My guess is that it really depends on your style of healing to choose what gear suits you best.
12/08/08, 3:05 PM   #66
GTtheBard
Von Kaiser

Tauren Druid

Sen'jin
 Originally Posted by Wildspeaker I am just wondering... my healing style, at least while healing a tank is to have a constant of 3 hots on him at all times. Usually not let them go off unless I am spamming nourish during a hard healing spot. In this case, at least untill I acquire 4 pieces of t4 am I to understand that it is better to use rejuv as a heal rather than nourish? Also, as far as gear goes, I feel as though our master looters either have no clue how to loot out healing gear, or am I totally looking at gear wrong because the gear that seems like healing gear is going to many dps instead of healers. Just wondering if this is happening elsewhere due to spellpower or if this is just my guild, I dont think druids need be concerned with crit rating so I tend to let that gear pass, but thats because I rarely cast healing touch or nourish compared to how often I use the others.
Regrowth, not Rejuv*. But yes, that seems to be the general consensus.

There's speculation that Resto Druids are going to have scaling problems Post-Naxx due to the nearly negligible gains we receive from Haste/Crit and absurd amounts of those stats on all gear. This is because Crit only affects HT, Swiftmend, Nourish, and Regrowth, and Haste can be capped (fairly easily) in a raid environment. Since we can cap Haste on our main spells (LB, Rejuv, WG) with Naxx gear, and because Nature's Grace offers -.5 seconds off a cast, it becomes useless itemization.

That leaves us with Crit. Mathematically, Regrowth is better than Nourish for a Flash Heal type spell, at least on targets without HOTs on them already. It also has a 50% chance to crit on top of the 15% or so we can get raid buffed...at which point, adding 1% Crit becomes slightly useless, and gaining Crit for a NS+HT or Swiftmend is not the best idea.

Gear that is straight Stam/Int/Spirit/Spellpower is hard to find, and is even rarer on Leather. Ferals were having this same problem in Beta, though not quite as extreme, because they were forced to use items that had Armor over ones that didn't, simply because Armor is something they scale with. Technically, Resto Druids have very little gear that is itemized well for us. If the loot is going to Boomkin, well, they can technically use it better. If you're talking about Cloth drops, that's something you're gonna need to work out with your raid leaders - Cloth items without Hit are useful for a LOT of specs at the moment. Even if they're nice items for us, there will be a LOT of QQing.

12/08/08, 3:08 PM   #67
Vazu
Don Flamenco

Night Elf Druid

Uldum
 Originally Posted by Wildspeaker I am just wondering... my healing style, at least while healing a tank is to have a constant of 3 hots on him at all times. Usually not let them go off unless I am spamming nourish during a hard healing spot. In this case, at least untill I acquire 4 pieces of t4 am I to understand that it is better to use rejuv as a heal rather than nourish? Also, as far as gear goes, I feel as though our master looters either have no clue how to loot out healing gear, or am I totally looking at gear wrong because the gear that seems like healing gear is going to many dps instead of healers. Just wondering if this is happening elsewhere due to spellpower or if this is just my guild, I dont think druids need be concerned with crit rating so I tend to let that gear pass, but thats because I rarely cast healing touch or nourish compared to how often I use the others.
What sort of healing are you talking about? You're too vague here. Are you healing a heroic, 10-man Naxx, 25-man Naxx? Are you assigned to tank heal only, or support with HOTs and raid heal too? See what I mean? There's no black & white answer to your question. You have to be very specific about the fight and your assignment. As for gear and loot guidelines, there are some generally accepted guidelines for handing stuff out in Wrath.

Spirit is now useful. Which means gear that you would normally associate (in BC) as being a resto Druid or holy Priest item are now sought after by Warlocks too, for example. Because of the changes they made to spellpower and Spirit in general, some items will blend and are used effectively by healers or DPS. A good raid leader and quality players (who know what they want) should be able to distinguish between what is clearly BIS for a Warlock or BIS for a resto Druid. Like I said, the system isn't perfect. You will certainly encounter items like [Necklace of the Glittering Chamber] where resto Druids will want it (and so will Warlocks) just as often as you will [Illustration of the Dragon Soul] where Warlocks want it (and so will resto Druids). Those are just off the top of my head.

You want players in your guild to be smart and aware of what their BIS gear choices are. That's the solution. You don't want people taking gear just because it's an upgrade when it's a much, much better item for someone else. That's what a good raid leader is for.

 12/08/08, 3:24 PM #68 Wildspeaker Glass Joe   Wildspeaker Tauren Druid   Staghelm Ok.. 25 man Naxx,Patchwerk is the boss were trying to kill. My target I keep full hots up the entire time and spam nourish, with basically little or no raid heals needed at all. For a fight such as this assuming the tanks are all geared enough to handle the damage should I not use nourish and instead use Regrowth? Or since my target is hot'ed up I should use it. And yea, I am noticing there is seemingly little actual resto raid gear and we have to just deal with what is handed to us and try to pick out pieces we can use the best we can. Even the t7 is using crit which for me I always saw as useless pre bc, however it looks as though I might want a little bit seeing as haste is so easily acquired. So for the most part if I see a piece of gear with more spell power and spirit despite what ever else it has on it I should just roll on it because it will all be useful?
 12/08/08, 3:34 PM #69 uliko Piston Honda   Feidan Night Elf Druid   Kor'gall (EU) Instead of just running around saying I'm wrong and spouting out some random math to support your claim how about you log into the game and test it for yourself. Sort of like how I did here. Now can we all just accept the formulas and calculations are correct, for now, or do I need to draw a fucking picture aswell? As for healing on Patchwerk I just keep the three hots up and spam Nourish the entire fight, not very exciting but that's what the fight calls for. Now when we're a bit more geared I don't have to spam as much but in general it's the same for every fight where I'm assigned on the MT. On Sapphiron I use almost exclusively Rejuvenation for the same reason I prefer Nourish over Regrowth, reliability. I'm not saying WG and Regrowth are bad, they have their moments, for example Jagged Knife on on Razuvious is perfect for Regrowth or Chain Lightning on Thaddius is perfect for WG. I'm sure WG works fine for Sapph aswell but it doesn't allow Swiftmend and may not always heal who you want it to heal. If you spam it there's also a high chance it hits someone who already has it further reducing its effectivness. Rejuvenation on the other hand will always make sure people stay alive thanks to the long duration so even if the first few ticks gets "overhealed" by CoH the last few ticks will pretty much always heal them. Also replenish did give me and the other few people I had Rejuvenation up on for most of the fight nearly 50mp5 and the rest got around 35mp5 from it. Why hit food is bad "You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."
12/08/08, 3:42 PM   #70
Vazu
Don Flamenco

Night Elf Druid

Uldum
 Originally Posted by Wildspeaker Ok.. 25 man Naxx,Patchwerk is the boss were trying to kill. My target I keep full hots up the entire time and spam nourish, with basically little or no raid heals needed at all. For a fight such as this assuming the tanks are all geared enough to handle the damage should I not use nourish and instead use Regrowth? Or since my target is hot'ed up I should use it. And yea, I am noticing there is seemingly little actual resto raid gear and we have to just deal with what is handed to us and try to pick out pieces we can use the best we can. Even the t7 is using crit which for me I always saw as useless pre bc, however it looks as though I might want a little bit seeing as haste is so easily acquired. So for the most part if I see a piece of gear with more spell power and spirit despite what ever else it has on it I should just roll on it because it will all be useful?
This is probably better answered in private messages to not de-rail the topic at hand in this thread.
(For future reference)

holy Paladins: MT or hateful tank #1
holy Priests: MT or hateful tank #1
resto Druids: We just roll 3 HOTs on both the MT and hateful tank #1
resto Shaman: They just spam Chain heal on the MT, I think.

..and then you can assign an "extra" decent healer to hateful tank #2 to top that person off when they eat a hateful every now and then. Chain Heal will do the rest.

12/08/08, 4:03 PM   #71
tertribus
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Cho'gall (EU)
 Originally Posted by Rhaegal The math works fine. If you need to reduce the GCD from 1.5 to 1.3, you need: 1.3 = 1.5 / (1 + (y/100)) Solve for y and you get ~15.4% haste. Add in, say, Wrath of Air for a 5% bonus, and you end up with the formula: 1.3 = 1.5 / ( 1.05 * (1 + (y/100)) ) Here, y = 9.9%, which is exactly what ithecho got. Calculations confirmed by third party! If you're still getting something else, you're just making a math error somewhere.
I am not trying to say that I am right. Thank you for the correction of calculation. As against, I do not understand the logic of "you need to reduce the GCD from 1.5 to 1.3.
Is there any blue post confirms that?

12/08/08, 4:31 PM   #72
Rhaegal
Don Flamenco

Pandaren Monk

Zul'Jin
 Originally Posted by tertribus I am not trying to say that I am right. Thank you for the correction of calculation. As against, I do not understand the logic of "you need to reduce the GCD from 1.5 to 1.3. Is there any blue post confirms that?
There is no blue post I know of, but if you read what uliku just said a couple posts ago, and confirm his testing in-game, which you can do easily enough, it's a lot more reliable and accurate than a blue post.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 12/08/08, 6:21 PM #73 Playered Soda Popinski     Maifax Tauren Druid   Twisting Nether (EU) Blues will not post to explain every mechanic in the game - this is something for players to find out themselves if they wish to know (I recall a post on the beta boards saying something similar).
 12/08/08, 7:47 PM #74 kieu Glass Joe   Kieu Night Elf Druid   Moonrunner Haste Excel Sheet I developed an excel spreadsheet modeling haste %/haste rating with Moonkin aura, Wrath of Air Totem, both together, and 5/5 gift of the earth mother alone and with buffs. Haste.xls - FileFront.com
 12/09/08, 2:56 AM #75 Anaram Don Flamenco   Anaram Tauren Druid   Lightning's Blade (EU) OTT: It seems like we should kick up a proper thread on "how to heal in raids" or something along those lines since it seems that quite a significant portion of the current resto threads which have to do with raiding are degenerating into exactly that. I realize that people heal differently and have different strategies (and their guilds assign them to different tasks) but perhaps it would help to keep the other threads more on point. Last page of this thread doesn't have an awfully lot to do with items anymore.

 Elitist Jerks Restoration Itemization