Restoration Itemization - Page 62

Fallenangel · 09/30/09, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by Arythorn

Haven't done this on 25s yet but I have done it on 10s and the 6k PC tick every 3 seconds plus a 30% leeching damage every 1 second will not be covered by Rejuv (glyphed or otherwise). Let's say normal rejuv is hitting for 3kish every 3 -- make that 4.5k every 3 with Rejuv glyphed and you are 1.5k behind every 3 seconds without even factoring in 30% Leeching. Granted there is some amount of resist usually on each tick of PC so it's less than 6k flat but 30% Leeching every 1 sec adds up considering you are trying to keep the target at greater than 9k to avoid a back-to-back or near-simultaneous ticks of PC / Leeching killing them. I didn't add in passive healing sources like JoL as it is hard to quantify but my experience in 10s definitely suggests you need more than glyphed RJ.

EDIT: the initial kill parses I viewed on Anub'arak 25H actually had a bunch of druids using glyphed HT to solve this problem. That's another interesting angle/strategy and apparently a successful one at that. I suppose glyphing HT could solve some of the other issues I'm discussing as well and it is 100% reliably 1 sec chains (due to GCD not cast time) whereas NG-proc'd 1 sec Nourishes aren't 100% reliable. That said, if you can keep it proc'd, 1 sec glyphed Nourish spam is better throughput than 1 sec glyphed HT spam.

Why would the GCD of HT be 1 sec? Unless the glyph and/or Naturalist affect it, its GCD is the same as nourish only with a lot less crit % so NG uptime isn't reliable.
I have considered glyphing HT but for the burst healing, not a spam.
Resists are part of the game, and with a totem you are basically guaranteed to resist 10%. You are also not solo healing so I guess it depends on your partner - with a disc priest shielding rejuvs seem to be enough, and tank healing is a higher priority (talking on 10).

Arythorn · 09/30/09, 6:44 PM

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

Why would the GCD of HT be 1 sec? Unless the glyph and/or Naturalist affect it, its GCD is the same as nourish only with a lot less crit % so NG uptime isn't reliable.
I have considered glyphing HT but for the burst healing, not a spam.
Resists are part of the game, and with a totem you are basically guaranteed to resist 10%. You are also not solo healing so I guess it depends on your partner - with a disc priest shielding rejuvs seem to be enough, and tank healing is a higher priority (talking on 10).

Disc priest shields would definitely be an interesting benefit on this fight. I'm two-healing with a Paladin -- he has pure focus on MT/OT and I have focus on the other 8 members. Reviewing some parses of our encounters, PC is hitting from the 4ks to low 5ks after resists. Leeching puts it out of reach for just RJ and passive JoL to handle. RJ plus shields I could see working if your priest has the GCDs available to keep them up while tank healing. Well, clearly it has worked

With a Paladin, not so much.

As to glyphed HT GCD, I wasn't very clear in my writing. I meant to say that no matter how fast I get my HT, I'll never get the GCD under 1 second so there will always be that limitation. GCD for HT at current haste levels is actually above 1 second. I played around with spamming glyphed HT with a 11/0/60 spec versus glyphed Nourish and a 14/0/57 spec. Given my current haste, my Nourish is at 1.347 seconds (just self buffs in Dalaran -- no raid buffs). With enough back-to-back casts, I am increasingly likely to get more Nourishes off in the same amount of time using 14/0/57 than Glyphed HT and 11/0/60 due to GCD mechanics. Glyphed HT is just more consistent/reliable in its timing and gets a much faster initial heal down.

I'll roll with it in 10s/25s tonight/tomorrow just to get a raid feel for it but based on initial impressions, I think I'm back to 541 haste and 14/0/57. Seeing glyphed HT in the Anub heroic parses just got me interested enough to playtest it and build my own impressions. I might keep the glyphed HT spec around for utility until I get my hands on some gear that will allow me to get my haste up toward that 541 number without sacrificing spell power / throughput.

In other news, found the option for Quartz to show cast time using 1, 2, or 3 decimal places so that's cool. Wish I could get something to display GCD for non-HoT spells to the same level of granularity.

Arythorn · 09/30/09, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Arythorn

So, less Celestial Focus: (1.5/(1.03*1.05*1.2)=1.155802 = 15.58% haste needed to get to 1.0 seconds X 32.79 haste per 1% reduction = 511 haste required. I bumped it up to 541 since 511 put me so close to dropping a point out of GotEM that I might as well do so. I'm not sure how you're getting 1.04 sec post-NG Nourishes with 359 haste. It's not impossible I'm missing something but I don't think I am. If I am, I'll put my tail between my legs and go sit in the penalty box with a dunce cap.

/em skulks over to penalty box with tail between legs and puts dunce cap on.

Turns out we are both right. Your 1.04 is on target and my 511 for 1 second is on target as well. I did matter of fact testing with 3 decimal places on quartz and WoA / Swift Retribution. Couldn't get exact haste values we're talking about due to available gear in bags and on me but:

At 372 haste, 1.038 NG proc'd Nourishes. At 521 haste, .998 NG proc'd Nourishes.

So, for the price of 150 haste, I'm buying 100ths not 10ths. Where I screwed up was thinking current haste and buffs had me at 1.1 sec NG proc'd Nourishes. Clearly I need to make sure I stay in range of both totem and moonkin/paladin. Being out of range of one or the other explains the 1.1 sec Nourish spam. Apologies. This is the first time I've really been concerned about speed of Nourish spam as prior to ToC, it really wasn't a concern whatsoever. It's also the first time I've bothered spec'ing for Nature's Grace as it was pretty much not worth the talent points for me in Ulduar. I guess I didn't notice the sub-1.1 casts that clearly must've occurred at least some of the time. Knowing is half the battle I guess.

Anyway, I'll take my lumps for not testing first. At the very least, the conversation and exercise has been informative for me. The problem of needing quick burst heals in ToC persists -- but I guess I have already mostly solved it with 14/0/57 spec -- now I just need to be more aware of positioning to maintain auras. As Fallen stated near the top of this page, crit will outperform haste past 359 with little loss of flexibility / capability it appears.

Larkhill · 10/03/09, 7:27 PM

On the topic of gcd haste and gotem, my job within my healing team is very different from most. I'll give a bit of background. Our healing team consists of 4 priests (2 holy, 1 disc and 1 with dual spec who changes as per the fight), a holy pally, a resto shaman and me, the resto druid.

As you can imagine, the need for me to be spamming rejuv's on the raid is greatly reduced by other healers. I'm the one that does assignments and as far as i see it, the only thing we were lacking is a quick flash healer, so i became one and took a CF build and stacked haste on all my gear (which is why you see me at 830 haste and 0/5 gotem)

My question is, assuming wrath of air and boomkin aura is up, would my GCD hit 1 second with NG proc'd? Do i have too much haste even for my 0/5 gotem spec?

my spec
The World of Warcraft Armory

• Hamlet · 10/03/09, 8:32 PM

Originally Posted by Larkhill

My question is, assuming wrath of air and boomkin aura is up, would my GCD hit 1 second with NG proc'd? Do i have too much haste even for my 0/5 gotem spec?

my spec
The World of Warcraft Armory

With CF and NG, and full raid buffs, your soft haste cap will be the same as Moonkin's: 401 haste.

Your GCD is the name is your Nourish cast time; you can always see what it is.

myo · 10/03/09, 9:33 PM

So I was wondering which of the five set pieces I should (1) ultimately leave out of my T9 four set, assuming all gear is available, and which piece I should (2) leave out right now, assuming I have infinite triumphs. There's a nice 245 helmet and shoulder from the vendors, so I would probably use one of those for now. Remember that of the T9 pieces, the legs and shoulders are haste and the other three are crit.

These are what I'm using for comparison:

258s:
Legs:[Pants of the Soothing Touch] Jaraxxus 25 Heroic
Chest:[Robes of the Shattered Fellowship] Champions 25 Heroic
Hands:[Handwraps of the Lifeless Touch] Anub 25 Heroic (no spirit/mp5, crit & haste)

245s:
Head:[Stormrage Cover] Onyxia 25
Shoulders:[Epaulets of the Fateful Accord] 45 triumphs (crit, leather)
Shoulders:[Mantle of Revered Mortality] 45 triumphs (haste, cloth)

Worse than stormrage, but vendored (245s):
Head:[Mask of Abundant Growth] 75 triumphs (haste, leather)
Head:[Hood of Clouded Sight] 75 triumphs (crit, cloth)

Sorry if this was already addressed, I looked for a bit.

• Hamlet · 10/03/09, 10:30 PM

There's no 258 sp/crit piece (which is you want you want, as you'll be haste-capped most likely). So the best you can do is probably a 258 haste/crit piece with three sockets: [Leggings of the Awakening]. Barring that, any of the 258 items you listed. You really just want to be at haste cap and maximize spellpower--beyond that, worrying about secondary stats isn't all that worthwhile.

OnyxShadow · 10/03/09, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by myo

So I was wondering which of the five set pieces I should (1) ultimately leave out of my T9 four set, assuming all gear is available, and which piece I should (2) leave out right now, assuming I have infinite triumphs. There's a nice 245 helmet and shoulder from the vendors, so I would probably use one of those for now. Remember that of the T9 pieces, the legs and shoulders are haste and the other three are crit.

Legs:[Pants of the Soothing Touch] is my personal choice. It doesn't replace a tier piece that can have crit, and its got a LOT of bang for your buck. Also, dropping from 25H Jaraxxus means its more easily attainable than some other options. While I would prefer there be a 258 with crit and regen, this is a good substitute. I can still keep my haste down around the soft cap if I juggle my crit/haste items.

faint · 10/05/09, 5:47 AM

would you wait for a drop [Bindings of the Autumn Willow] or craft [Moonshadow Armguards]

- no access heroic toc
- haste soft cap
- moonshadow cost only some gold

i'm a new druid in the raid . thanks.

Babylegs · 10/05/09, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by faint

would you wait for a drop [Bindings of the Autumn Willow] or craft [Moonshadow Armguards]

- no access heroic toc
- haste soft cap
- moonshadow cost only some gold

i'm a new druid in the raid . thanks.

If you've got 4T9 you should be looking to stack crit after you've reached the haste soft cap. Plus if you have the gold...why not go for it, I say. You should always be looking to better your character in anyway you possibly can.

If other crit gear drops that would replace some of your haste then you could pick up [Bindings of the Autumn Willow] later on to juggle around with your haste soft cap if need be. Its nice to have alternate items banked to open up your options when selecting gear to meet requirements.

cuddlekin · 10/06/09, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Arythorn

As to the crit vs haste post 4 pc T9 discussion, I've been going back and forth on this. I have seen 5/5 Heroic ToC on 10s but only have the benefit of seeing 2/5 heroic on 25s ToC. That said, my experience to date has been that, due to damage profile and specific debuffs, Regrowth and Nourish are taking a more prominent place in my arsenal. Based on this, my current plan is to shoot for 541 haste to get to 1 sec post-NG Nourishes and also allow me to drop 1 point out of GotEM and put that in 2/2 Living Seed (Post 4 PC T9 / 541 haste Resto Spec). After that, I'll push some crit into my gear selection as itemization of available drops allows. I definitely value extra crit on Regrowth / Nourish / Rejuv ticks, but ToC content is making me value speed of direct heal casts even more.

Post T9 4pc(and after 541 haste soft cap with 4/5 GotEM) you would get more benefit from a spec with Natural Perfection rather than Revitalize such as:Post T9 4pc 541 haste. Once you have reached the 1 sec HoT GCD soft cap with 541 haste and 4/5 GotEM the rest of your itemization should be focused on crit, even gemming for crit will become beneficial in yellow sockets that yield a spellpower bonus. I currently reside at 19.66% crit as well as 584 haste(17.81%) unbuffed found here:Current Gear. I will be replacing the Ironmender with the Heroic Chalice of Searing Light as soon as it drops which would bring me down to 548 haste(16.71%) and put me up to 21.01% crit unbuffed, found here:Gear + Chalice of Searing Light
And as for the strategy of healing 25ToGC I do not see myself using casted heals more than in the past. Rejuvenation blanketing along with occasional Wild Growths is usually the way to go. UNLESS you are doing Faction Champions, where casted heals are at an utmost necessity to counteract the burst. Northrend Beasts caters to Rejuv on the melee then full HoTs and Nourish spamming on the tanks during phases 1 & 2. Whereas phase 3 calls for blanket Rejuvs and Wild Growths right before crashes. Jaraxxus is another heavy Rejuv blanketing encounter with Swiftmends on those who are getting suplexed by the Mistresses and HoTs/Nourish spam on the tanks. Twin Valkyrs is all Rejuv blanketing with Wild Growths almost on cooldown. Anub'arak calls for heavy HoTs on the tanks and a semi-full arsenal(Rejuv/Regrowth/LifebloomX1) of HoTs on the targets with Penetrating Cold until phase 3 hits and you switch to blanket Rejuvs and Wild Growths with Regrowths and if able a Lifebloom on targets with Penetrating Cold.

slourette · 10/06/09, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by cuddlekin

Post T9 4pc(and after 541 haste soft cap with 4/5 GotEM) you would get more benefit from a spec with Natural Perfection rather than Revitalize such as:Post T9 4pc 541 haste. Once you have reached the 1 sec HoT GCD soft cap with 541 haste and 4/5 GotEM the rest of your itemization should be focused on crit, even gemming for crit will become beneficial in yellow sockets that yield a spellpower bonus. I currently reside at 19.66% crit as well as 584 haste(17.81%) unbuffed found here:Current Gear. I will be replacing the Ironmender with the Heroic Chalice of Searing Light as soon as it drops which would bring me down to 548 haste(16.71%) and put me up to 21.01% crit unbuffed, found here:Gear + Chalice of Searing Light
And as for the strategy of healing 25ToGC I do not see myself using casted heals more than in the past. Rejuvenation blanketing along with occasional Wild Growths is usually the way to go. UNLESS you are doing Faction Champions, where casted heals are at an utmost necessity to counteract the burst. Northrend Beasts caters to Rejuv on the melee then full HoTs and Nourish spamming on the tanks during phases 1 & 2. Whereas phase 3 calls for blanket Rejuvs and Wild Growths right before crashes. Jaraxxus is another heavy Rejuv blanketing encounter with Swiftmends on those who are getting suplexed by the Mistresses and HoTs/Nourish spam on the tanks. Twin Valkyrs is all Rejuv blanketing with Wild Growths almost on cooldown. Anub'arak calls for heavy HoTs on the tanks and a semi-full arsenal(Rejuv/Regrowth/LifebloomX1) of HoTs on the targets with Penetrating Cold until phase 3 hits and you switch to blanket Rejuvs and Wild Growths with Regrowths and if able a Lifebloom on targets with Penetrating Cold.

I completely agree with your description of the fights. I see why you would spec into Natural Perfection over Reviatalize now that crit can actually have some place in our gear, but I don't think gemming for crit will ever be beneficial. Looking at just the rejuv spell, I get crit worth about 0.4 SP. If you don't want to use luminous gems because your mana feels limitless, I would suggest straight SP, since 23 SP > 12 SP + 10 Crit + 5 SP, which becomes 23 SP > 21 SP, JUST from rejuvenation. I would put the value of crit below 0.25 SP actually, since WG (and LB) gains no benefit from crit but benefits enormously from SP.

Math:

Healing = (Base + Coefficient * SP) * (1 + Crit/9182) * Talents
dHealing = Healing * dSP / (Base/Coefficient + SP) + Healing * dCrit / (9182 + Crit)
Value of Crit = (Base/Coefficient + SP) / (9182 + Crit) = (388/.4512 + 3000) / (9182 + 500) = 0.40

(I'm actually neglecting the crit from int, but it's not far off since changing the 500 crit ^^^^ a little doesn't change much)
Note that 9182 comes from 200 * 45.91 crit rating / crit percent

I also think that it's better to go 5/5 GotEM and 2/3 Natural perfection, since that one point of GotEM changes how much haste you need by about 180, but one percent of crit is 46 crit rating. Assuming you can switch most of that haste into crit, I believe it is better to have 5/5 GotEM

Fallenangel · 10/06/09, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by cuddlekin

Post T9 4pc(and after 541 haste soft cap with 4/5 GotEM) you would get more benefit from a spec with Natural Perfection rather than Revitalize such as:Post T9 4pc 541 haste. Once you have reached the 1 sec HoT GCD soft cap with 541 haste and 4/5 GotEM the rest of your itemization should be focused on crit, even gemming for crit will become beneficial in yellow sockets that yield a spellpower bonus. I currently reside at 19.66% crit as well as 584 haste(17.81%) unbuffed found here:Current Gear. I will be replacing the Ironmender with the Heroic Chalice of Searing Light as soon as it drops which would bring me down to 548 haste(16.71%) and put me up to 21.01% crit unbuffed, found here:Gear + Chalice of Searing Light
And as for the strategy of healing 25ToGC I do not see myself using casted heals more than in the past. Rejuvenation blanketing along with occasional Wild Growths is usually the way to go. UNLESS you are doing Faction Champions, where casted heals are at an utmost necessity to counteract the burst. Northrend Beasts caters to Rejuv on the melee then full HoTs and Nourish spamming on the tanks during phases 1 & 2. Whereas phase 3 calls for blanket Rejuvs and Wild Growths right before crashes. Jaraxxus is another heavy Rejuv blanketing encounter with Swiftmends on those who are getting suplexed by the Mistresses and HoTs/Nourish spam on the tanks. Twin Valkyrs is all Rejuv blanketing with Wild Growths almost on cooldown. Anub'arak calls for heavy HoTs on the tanks and a semi-full arsenal(Rejuv/Regrowth/LifebloomX1) of HoTs on the targets with Penetrating Cold until phase 3 hits and you switch to blanket Rejuvs and Wild Growths with Regrowths and if able a Lifebloom on targets with Penetrating Cold.

Getting Natural Perfection isn't really related to 4/5 GotEM - which is one of the most expensive talents to drop a point in. NP should be part of the standard build with 4T9.
If you don't cast a lot of cast-time heals and blanket the raid with rejuv, opting for NG over of revitalize doesn't make much sense.

Rejuv blanketing on Jaraxxus just shows how broken rejuv really is and why it's suppressing our other heals, at least mentally. I see no reason to do that on a fight that has basically no raid damage besides every 2 minutes. What are you hoping to catch here, a CL target? Surely if rejuv wasn't the free cast it is now then that would be pointless.

cuddlekin · 10/06/09, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by slourette

I also think that it's better to go 5/5 GotEM and 2/3 Natural perfection, since that one point of GotEM changes how much haste you need by about 180, but one percent of crit is 46 crit rating. Assuming you can switch most of that haste into crit, I believe it is better to have 5/5 GotEM

By having that much haste it affects more spells than just HoTs, which is the downside to GotEM. Having 541 haste static on gear means your nourishes and regrowths cast faster. If you put another point in GotEM and drop 180 haste, all you are doing is LOSING haste to nourish and regrowth, because both ways make you have a 1 sec GCD on HoTs.

Fallenangel · 10/06/09, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by cuddlekin

By having that much haste it affects more spells than just HoTs, which is the downside to GotEM. Having 541 haste static on gear means your nourishes and regrowths cast faster. If you put another point in GotEM and drop 180 haste, all you are doing is LOSING haste to nourish and regrowth, because both ways make you have a 1 sec GCD on HoTs.

That's not accurate, you are losing potentially 180 crit rating which you could have gained by converting that extra haste to crit.
It's true that it's not 100% doable due to lack of 258 spirit/crit items in some slots, but there is a gain here. It's also possible that 245 spi/crit item is better than the 258 haste one, since the haste is mostly a dud.