Restoration Itemization - Page 63

cuddlekin · 10/06/09, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

Getting Natural Perfection isn't really related to 4/5 GotEM - which is one of the most expensive talents to drop a point in. NP should be part of the standard build with 4T9.
If you don't cast a lot of cast-time heals and blanket the raid with rejuv, opting for NG over of revitalize doesn't make much sense.

Rejuv blanketing on Jaraxxus just shows how broken rejuv really is and why it's suppressing our other heals, at least mentally. I see no reason to do that on a fight that has basically no raid damage besides every 2 minutes. What are you hoping to catch here, a CL target? Surely if rejuv wasn't the free cast it is now then that would be pointless.

Revitalize provides no personal increase to healing. Thus why I do not take it. I make our other druids spec into it in place of living seed so we do have the buff but for personal optimal output revitalize does nothing.
Random people getting flames, random infernals jumping around to AoE, random people getting chain lightninged, already having a Rejuv to Nourish on a target with incinerate flesh, already having a Rejuv on someone to quickly Swiftmend when they get suplexed. There is quite a lot of raid damage on Heroic.

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

That's not accurate, you are losing potentially 180 crit rating which you could have gained by converting that extra haste to crit.
It's true that it's not 100% doable due to lack of 258 spirit/crit items in some slots, but there is a gain here. It's also possible that 245 spi/crit item is better than the 258 haste one, since the haste is mostly a dud.

But when talking about Nourish and Regrowth, 180 crit rating adding onto an already ~60% crit spell isn't adding much. However adding 180 haste rating to those two spells has a much greater effect and increase to healing output.

OnyxShadow · 10/06/09, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by cuddlekin

Revitalize provides no personal increase to healing. Thus why I do not take it. I make our other druids spec into it in place of living seed so we do have the buff but for personal optimal output revitalize does nothing.

Revitalize isn't about your "personal" healing. Its about utility for the raid. Taking a spell that increases the raid's collective MP5 by hundreds and increases the DPS of your melee is well worth the small investment. There's no reason to ONLY force someone else to take it, either. For every druid with the talent, the effect is multiplied (no diminishing returns I am aware of).

Originally Posted by cuddlekin

But when talking about Nourish and Regrowth, 180 crit rating adding onto an already ~60% crit spell isn't adding much. However adding 180 haste rating to those two spells has a much greater effect and increase to healing output.

Increasing your crit has never been about boosting nourish and regrowth. That's why resto druids didn't wanted crit before T9 4-piece. That extra 180 crit you plan to take a pass on would probably be a lot more beneficial than 0.06 second faster nourishes and regrowths.

cuddlekin · 10/06/09, 7:44 PM

Originally Posted by OnyxShadow

Revitalize isn't about your "personal" healing. Its about utility for the raid. Taking a spell that increases the raid's collective MP5 by hundreds and increases the DPS of your melee is well worth the small investment. There's no reason to ONLY force someone else to take it, either. For every druid with the talent, the effect is multiplied (no diminishing returns I am aware of).
Increasing your crit has never been about boosting nourish and regrowth. That's why resto druids didn't wanted crit before T9 4-piece. That extra 180 crit you plan to take a pass on would probably be a lot more beneficial than 0.06 second faster nourishes and regrowths.

It is no where near "hundreds" of Mp5, it is worth about 80 Mp5 per healer. And no, 180 crit is NOT more beneficial than 180 haste on nourish and regrowth.

Fallenangel · 10/06/09, 8:32 PM

Originally Posted by cuddlekin

It is no where near "hundreds" of Mp5, it is worth about 80 Mp5 per healer. And no, 180 crit is NOT more beneficial than 180 haste on nourish and regrowth.

Do you not think 80mp5 PER HEALER is worth 3 talent points? Not to mention the other benefits?
Seriously, this is embarrassing. You openly admitted to telling other raiders how to spec, presumably abusing your power in your guild, but refuse to do so yourself for whatever convoluted excuse.

And read what OnyxShadow said. That 180 crit rating boosts your rejuv - your main healing spell, mind you.

Payday · 10/07/09, 1:47 AM

Cuddlekin:

Originally Posted by OnyxShadow

Raid members now average more like 25k mana pools with raid buffs. So 9 procs per 5 seconds / 5 = 1.8. 1.8 procs per second. 1.8 procs * 60 seconds = 108 procs per minute. 108 procs * 250 mana (1% of the 25k mana pool) = 27000 mana generated per minute. 27000 / 12 = 2250 MP5 to the raid PER DRUID in an ideal situation.

Source

2250mp5 per druid is certainly worth specing into for all druids since it is completely additive.

cuddlekin · 10/07/09, 6:15 AM

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

And read what OnyxShadow said. That 180 crit rating boosts your rejuv - your main healing spell, mind you.

I do agree that after haste soft cap the 180 crit would be more beneficial for Rejuv than the 180 haste would be to nourish and regrowth. I wasn't clear on that, sorry. I just can't seem to find it. Can you show me what gear you would suggest I get this 180 crit rating from? While remaining haste soft capped. And with what spec?
EDIT: This is what I found.
5/5 GotEM 2/3 NP Haste soft capped(over by a lot but I could not manage to get any less while still resembling BiS) with 500 crit rating(22.3%) and 494 haste rating(15.07%) and 2998 Spellpower.
4/5 GotEM 3/3 NP Haste soft capped(more BiS looking than previous gear compilation) with 459 crit rating(22.46%) and 554 haste rating(16.9%) and 3011 Spellpower.
Now which spec/gear setup would you prefer? The one with less haste, less crit, less spellpower, or the one with more haste, more crit, and more spellpower?
Would you be looking at something like this? 5/5 GotEM 2/3 NP Haste soft capped(barely over but furthest of the three from BiS) with 635 crit rating(25.2%) and 363 haste rating(11.07%) and 2969 Spellpower. Is losing 5.83% haste on Nourish and Regrowth, as well as losing 42 Spellpower worth the 2.74% crit?

Fallenangel · 10/07/09, 8:03 AM

Can't easily change gear on chardev it seems, but I'd go with quite a diff setup - the non-set piece would be legs or shoulders (and not the chest), ideally the moonkin shoulders, [Belt of the Winter Solstice], [Wail of the Val'kyr], [Polished Dragonslayer's Signet]. Once you can add Anub-25-HC loot this setup gains the ring and a 258 off-set.

cuddlekin · 10/07/09, 8:05 AM

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

Can't easily change gear on chardev it seems, but I'd go with quite a diff setup - the non-set piece would be legs or shoulders (and not the chest), ideally the moonkin shoulders, [Belt of the Winter Solstice], [Wail of the Val'kyr], [Polished Dragonslayer's Signet]. Once you can add Anub-25-HC loot this setup gains the ring and a 258 off-set.

Why would you use anything but the chest as your off-set, especially seeing as two of those items have no regen....
What you suggested would look like this:5/5 GotEM 2/3 NP which is below the haste soft cap for 5/5 GotEM. You would then have to gem for haste such as:5/5 GotEM 2/3 NP. Which will put you AT haste soft cap with 5/5 and still leaves you with 761 crit rating(27.9%) and 360 haste rating(10.98%) and 2923 Spellpower.
So you would lose 5.92% haste, and lose 88 Spellpower to gain 5.44% crit(302 rating).

Diba · 10/07/09, 8:25 AM

Revitalize is absolutely a core talent to a resto druid. I can't understand people who don't take it - over four thousand mana to every caster in a fight over 4 minutes? Especially when the resto tree is bloated with talents way worse - f. ex. Living Seed, or Nature's Grace from Balance. Just not the healer mana, but several hundreds of raid dps from rogues, dk's, and to some extent warriors - a must have.

Fallenangel · 10/07/09, 8:30 AM

Because the the leg and shoulder tier slots have haste and I want crit?
It's true that the alternatives in these slots aren't amazing, but if you're talking about BiS, then taking the moonkin shoulders is certainly reasonable - surely you can get the 245 at least.
Using a [Ring of the Darkmender] instead of the onyxia puts it squarely on 359 haste.

cuddlekin · 10/07/09, 8:31 AM

Originally Posted by Diba

Revitalize is absolutely a core talent to a resto druid. I can't understand people who don't take it - over four thousand mana to every caster in a fight over 4 minutes? Especially when the resto tree is bloated with talents way worse - f. ex. Living Seed, or Nature's Grace from Balance. Just not the healer mana, but several hundreds of raid dps from rogues, dk's, and to some extent warriors - a must have.

Living Seed and Nature's Grace are better than Revitalize if all you are looking for is more healing output. Which is my personal preference. I would lose 20% haste and 8-12% of my nightly healing speccing out of either.

Fallenangel · 10/07/09, 8:40 AM

8-12% healing lost from JUST living seed?
Calling NG 20% haste is funny. Who is actually chain-casting nourish or regrowth here? Get up, don't be shy.

cuddlekin · 10/07/09, 8:40 AM

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

Because the the leg and shoulder tier slots have haste and I want crit?
It's true that the alternatives in these slots aren't amazing, but if you're talking about BiS, then taking the moonkin shoulders is certainly reasonable - surely you can get the 245 at least.
Using a [Ring of the Darkmender] instead of the onyxia puts it squarely on 359 haste.

Again, neither the shoulder, nor the pants, nor the necklace have any regen...
So you would use something that looks like this5/5 GotEM 2/3 NP. Which puts you at 768 crit rating(28.11%) and 359 haste rating(10.94%) and 2935 Spellpower, with 1035 spirit and 334 mp5.
Whereas my spec/gear would put me at 459 crit rating(22.46%) and 554 haste rating(16.89%) and 3011 Spellpower, with 1212 spirit and 389 mp5.
You seem to be forgetting that you need mp5...even more now that we lost our awakening idol.

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

8-12% healing lost from JUST living seed?
Calling NG 20% haste is funny. Who is actually chain-casting nourish or regrowth here? Get up, don't be shy.

Yes, I actually know how to use living seed effectively. And you should be chain nourishing after every Collapsing Star, on tanks when need be on certain fights, topping people off after massive crash(those that weren't topped off already from Rejuv and Wild Growth), chain cast nourishes and regrowths on faction champions.

Diba · 10/07/09, 8:46 AM

Originally Posted by cuddlekin

Living Seed and Nature's Grace are better than Revitalize if all you are looking for is more healing output. Which is my personal preference. I would lose 20% haste and 8-12% of my nightly healing speccing out of either.

I'd absolutely abandon around 1.5% of your healing output (our last ToTGC25 clear, obviously FC takes it up) especially in ToTGC25 where the situation should be the same for every guild past twins - more raid dps clearly outweighs the healing gain. Derailing the topic though, but I just can't understand the viewpoint here.

Yes, I actually know how to use living seed effectively. And you should be chain nourishing after every Collapsing Star, on tanks when need be on certain fights, topping people off after massive crash(those that weren't topped off already from Rejuv and Wild Growth), chain cast nourishes and regrowths on faction champions.

This totally differs from my way of healing. I never top the raid off with Nourish' on Algalon - a mere 10k hp is way enough to survive a Cosmic Smash, so I'm way better going on with Rejuvs and WG's. Of course the situation is different when someone is, say, below 5k, but you can't say you should just chain Nourish.

Same with Icehowl, a simple Rejuv on targets low and a WG on 6 people is enough, after all the stun lasts what, 15 seconds.

By the way - Healing Touch glyph, for Anub, is pretty awesome in the whole ToTGC25.

cuddlekin · 10/07/09, 8:52 AM

Originally Posted by Diba

I'd absolutely abandon around 1.5% of your healing output (our last ToTGC25 clear, obviously FC takes it up) especially in ToTGC25 where the situation should be the same for every guild past twins - more raid dps clearly outweighs the healing gain.

The very minimal raid DPS increase from Revitalize would not make the difference in downing twins or anub.