Akomos

Overheal ticks, even at 100% overheal, absolutely can proc Replenish. Rejuv yourself next time you're checking your mail or whatever and see.

 

nau

I posted about the Headpiece of Reconciliation stat issue and it looks like they are looking at it. Heres hoping

This looks promising:
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Headpiece of Reconciliation - Stats change

Too bad its hideous

 

• Playered

Thanks, the best comparison is to our T7 helm though as it is an exact replica beyond MP5->Haste.

All gear looks hideous if it is not Tier gear though.. one of the benefits of forms I guess

 

puebloune

Considering stamina/intellect/spell power are common to every piece of gear we will use.
Considering I am using all my spells and not spamming regrowth or using only some kind of HoT.

For extra stats I will use spirit/haste/MP5 or crit.

Spirit is first because we get mana regen and healing power from it. Not mentionning your aura also benefits from it.
Haste second because I think its a great stat for us and sadly not being considered enough. It ease/fasten your HoT rotation and at one point will even allow us to remove points from GoTE talents.
MP5 or crit are last because mana regen is barely an issue already and that crit can't be a reliable stats. Even tho you're stacking crit in order to use regrowth, I think you're missing the points of being a resto druid.

 

Albedo

Has anyone tried dreamstate resto yet? A sample build might be something like this-
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I believe this is still a viable way for druids to heal, either as a tank healer in 25s or whatever in 10s or 5s.

Assuming my given build is used, the following changes might be considered in itemization.

1-Intel now equals more mp5 (10 intel to 1 mp5) and spellpower (12 intel to 1 spellpower).
2-remove the +heals from the spirit equation
3-3% haste from talents (only 1.1k haste to go!)
4-3% crit from talents
5-0.5 secs every crit (And you still have improved regrowth!)

With this, our itemization looks more like a moonkin's.

spellpower>int>haste>crit>mp5>spirit

Just covering all our bases.

 

Fallenangel

No, this is not a viable build. ToL gives way more mp5 than dreamstate, and imp ToL gives more SP than lunar grace. The rest is just trading off the great deep resto talents for useless balance ones.

 

puebloune

I must agree with Fallenangel here. I dont think going deeper in the balance tree is beneficial for us.

Altho, don't you guys have the feeling we have to waste points in the resto tree?

This is my so-called "basic" specc : WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Druid -> Talent Calculator

I have 4 points left, and soon enough I'll have more. With the more haste I am getting, the closer I am to remove points from the GoTEM talents.

Living seed healed for less then 1% when I specced with it. Replenish is meh at best, I would have to use rejuvenation a lot in order to make it worthwhile and this way I would be losing too much of my healing efficiency. Imp tranquility is fun, but mostly usefull in 5 men while anything related to HT is not worth it imo.

Too bad there is nothing worth it in the balance tree either. Maybe 1 point in Brambles and 3 points in celestial focus??

 

• Playered

I don't know what to say except to roll a Paladin alt?

You cripple your HoTs by 20% GCD/Scaling Power/Cost.
You destroy multiple Spirit enhancements aswell as neutering your Innervate (even Glyphed it will not give you 100%).
You lose 6% healing (will effect your 5/10mans more significantly than 25mans assuming you have a smart Resto Druid or a Protadin).
You don't have Wild Growth (which is still a very efficient heal CD or no CD).

The gains of this 'spec'? 12% Int->SP, 10% Int->MP5 and 3% Haste (oh and 3/3 Brambles & 2/2 Nature's Reach).
Pretty much everything else can be attained in a normal spec (you can get the 3% haste if you wish here too) and you do not miss out on much.

You mention skipping Spirit in favor of SP/Int despite the fact if you look at gear without Spirit you gain either Haste, Crit or MP5 in almost all cases - you do not get that budget spent on Int or more SP (in any notable amount).
The only way to drop Spirit for SP or Int is by gemming and in no cases should you have been putting pure Spirit gems in sockets anyway.

Dropping Imp ToL/LS will result in nullifying your Lunar Guidance gains and the loss of LS and a chunk of your Spirit from gear will (almost/completly) nullify your gains from Dreamstate.
Using any spell except HT/Nourish will result in further devestation due to their additional costs.


I wish you luck on your incredibly inferior and poorly thought out spec/gear choices and hope you enjoy testing it on very easy content to give you mediocre results.

 

Arentios

You seem to really be overlooking what talents tree druids can already get without much difficulty, and underestimating Tree of Life.

Trees get 6.66 spirit to the spellpower, and factoring in Living Spirit, it comes out to 5.797, making it better lunar guidance on the spellpower front (you have guidance wrong, it's 8.33 int to the spellpower).

Tree druids can already get 3% crit and 0.5s off every crit without any significant sacrifices.

It's fully possible to get 3% haste in a spec that doesn't get Natural Perfection. You don't get 3% crit and 3% haste to be sure, but neither is of tremendous value overall.

You're also really forgetting the mana saving of Tree of Life's -20% cost to HoTs. Assuming you cast say, 3 rejuvs every 12 seconds, you're already generating more effective mana regen than Dreamstate will give you (161 mp5 by my napkin math), before you cast a single extra spell in those 9 remaining seconds.

 

Albedo

If you are stacking int>spirit, it should come out to roughly the same +spells, if not more so. I have roughly 125 less intel than spirit, and that's with a couple of +16 spirit gems in my gear (which will be swapped out for +spell after reading this thread ) It has even been said in here that int is weighted more than spirit in traditional treebe forms. All dreamstate does is make spirit just like it is for most other classes.

Perhaps I should explain the concept of dreamstate in more detail.

With the end of spamming different ranks of healing touch (the heart and soul of dreamstate), the build was pretty much dead. However, I believe with Nourish, Regrowth, and Healing Touch, there are still enough options to continue the build, especially with the emphasis on haste this latest expansion. Obviously there are a lot of points wasted (5 to be exact) just to get down to dreamstate, and in the end we end up sacrificing almost all of our great hot-based talents. Fortunately for all of us, dreamstate isn't about hots. It's about spaming touch heals. Granted, now that ToL can healing touch, why would we even consider casting out of our elemental tree (short of seeing a lock in pvp)?

First off, let's look at improved regrowth combined with nature's grace. The prospect of a spell critting half of the time makes me all giddy inside, but more importantly, besides healing for more with that crit, we get a half a second off of our next cast. This means a >1 sec nourish, a >1.5 second regrowth, and a 2 sec healing touch. We know this from our current builds. All that dreamstate does is take it a step further. An earlier post considered the prospect of a 25% crit rating combined with regrowth. Dreamstate is meant to realize that scenario. More crit=faster casts+more heals. Eat your heart out palidins!

Of coarse other classes will be better at touch healing than druids, that's what they were designed to do. So why should we get obscure gear for a wierd build that will most likely be sub-par to other healers?

1-Dual specs are on the horizon!
For all of the crit chickens of the world, this build would require less item-swapping. Just uhm...ignore all that hit on your gear...

2-We can now single-target heal!
Patchwork got you down? Regrowth, regrowth, nourish, HT...

3-It's different.
Variety is the spice of life.

Until we see some numbers on how this build might actually preform, it may be best to consider it a novelty build. However, you cannot expect to heal the same way with a different build.

 

Arentios

You can do everything you just listed with a 14/0/57 (or 18/0/53) spec. You really seem to be missing what a tree druid can and cannot get. The only thing you're gaining is Dreamstate, while sacrificing Wild Growth, Tree of Life Form, and Gift of the Earth Mother. A dreamstate build doesn't single target heal any better than a full resto build (and actually does it worse due to not having -20% to the cost of Regrowth)

 

Norfair

Not to mention Living Spirit, which is a similar talent to Dreamstate. Why go through so much trouble to get Dreamstate but not picking up the resto version in the process?

Keep f**king that chicken.

 

Elorael

I'm still wondering about your 1.3 value used to determin the needed haste to get a 1.0s GCD.

* GotEM before haste:

1.5s * 0.8 = 1.2s - simple but apparently not the way its done.

* GotEM after haste:

(This is a backwards math thing from what you normally see so I'm talking it up, instead of just math'ing it up.

Aim - 1.0 casting speed.

Therefore solve for the value required to mean that a 20% reduction in GCD is equal to 1.0

GCD after Haste before GotEM = 1.0 * ( 1 / 0.8 ) = 1.25s

The casting speed that Haste must bring you to is 1.25s

If we take a base of 100 casts at 1.5s, then in the same time at 1.25 speed we can cast 120 times.

120 / 100 = 120% increase in casting time.

Therefore we require 20% haste to bring us to a 1.25 casting speed.

32.79 haste rating * 20 percentage points = 656 (655.8 rounded up)

So for a druid with GotEM 5/5 you require 656 haste to hit 1.0s GCD dead on.

And for those looking at the 1.3 then applying GotEM:

1.3s * 0.8 = 1.04 not 1.0

The interesting thing is: It doesn't matter if GotEM is applied before or after.

If it's applied before, you have a 1.2s cast to reduce with haste, that means you need to get 20% haste.

If its applied after, you have to get to a 1.25s cast speed, that means you need to get 20% haste.

I welcome any corrections to this as I'd prefer to be right then louder, but I don't see the math tables at the front of this being correct. And its causing issues for us healers over at PlusHeal.com.

 

• uliko

Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."

 

Elorael

Thankyou for linking the posts that I have an issue with.

Neither post actually explains the 1.3s base cast after Haste.

http://elitistjerks.com/990017-post110.html solves for h with an assumed 1.3 base cast. My issue is that you don't explain how you get the 1.3 and from my calculations, your value should be 1.25 not 1.3.

http://elitistjerks.com/958293-post638.html relies on the calculations done in the post above.

http://elitistjerks.com/958293-post638.html doesn't even mention the 1.3s base.

I'm looking for the justifcation of the statement in http://elitistjerks.com/1003153-post50.html that says the base GCD you need to get to is 1.3s.

If GotEM removes 20% of the current GCD and your aim is to get a 1.0 GCD, then

which is not a 1.0s GCD

If you can explain to me how the above line (and only the above line) is incorrect then maybe linking a previous post is valid, but I actually read each of those posts in detail.

If



then the base cast GCD required is 1.25 so:



should be:



I'm trying to ask you to justify why the formula you posted = 1.3 instead of = 1.25.

In mathematics if you start from a flawed premise then the calculations are wrong.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm not trying to solve for h, its a pretty picture that you have linked as justification. My post was about the haste value required for a druid with GotEM when no other haste modifiers from other classes or talents were applied.

Ultimately my post was describing:

where h is the required haste that a Restoration Druid with GotEM requires to get the GCD without outside help.

 

• uliko

Ok, first things first, we want to know how much haste you need to get 1s GCD on spells effected by GotEM. To find that out we need to figure out exactly what GotEM does. So lets actually read that post since you obviously have not. The first thing it does is state that GotEM removes 0.3s from the GCD after haste effects have been applied. Now you obviously do not believe that so how about verifying with the method provided in that post.

So make that macro, bind it to some convenient button and cast thorns or whatever spell you want and press the macro. It should say 1.5/haste in your chat window since that should be the cooldown on that spell (the gcd from casting thorns). Now cast lifebloom and press the macro again and it should be painfully obvious that it's 0.3s lower. Hence the need to only reduce it to 1.3s with haste since GotEM does the rest.

GotEM reduces your current gcd with 20% of the base gcd. In a "mathy" way if that makes more sense: 1.3 - 1.5*0.20 = 1

So stop spewing out your "here's how it should work" math and actually do some tests in game to back up your claims.

Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."

 

Glory

never mind

 

Elorael

So what you're saying is that GotEM removes 0.3s from the 1.5s GCD.

With 0 haste, I fully and wholeheartedly agree with you.

However, the text from GotEM reads:

Reduces the base global cooldown of your Rejuvenation, Lifebloom and Wild Growth spells by 20%.
Gift of the Earthmother - Spell - World of Warcraft

I agree with you completely that:



However, you have also stated:

(rest of quote removed as its the part I have issue with)

It appears I was confused by the logic you where employing. I understood the statement above to indicate that, GotEM is not taking 20% of 1.5s off your cast time, it is taking 20% off the adjusted GCD after haste has lowered the GCD.

The logic of taking off 0.3s because only applies if the GotEM adjustment is done on the 1.5s base GCD first or ...

From what I can deduce, in order to fit the model you've presented, haste and GotEM interact as such (this was what I needed you to explain for me to get your model):


where x is the resulting casting time (or GCD) and h remains our percentage haste.

If this is the model you're presenting to calculate the casting speed based on GotEM's interactions with haste, then I can accept that on the basis that I haven't done accurate empirical testing yet as i haven't been able to get a high enough haste value on my gear to validate or negate either model.

Model A (yours):


Model B (my assumed model from my reading):



I was not trying to be contentious or claim a higher knowledge, I simply did not interpret your statements across the various posts to indicate that the GotEM bonus was fixed. I beleived from all you had indicated, that the 20% reduction was applied to the effective GCD after haste had been applied. Your model, if I have it correct now, does not matter whether haste is applied before or after, as they are applied independently to the 1.5s GCD.

Also my confusion may have come from the fact that in Beta, GotEM began as a fixed value, was nerfed to a smaller fixed value, then buffed to a percentage, then a further percentage. Therefore it didn't make sense that it would be a percentage of a fixed value as this is no different to a fixed value anyway.

EDIT: Corrected an error with the presentation of the latex equations

 

Glory

Well Eloarel I was with you in the nevermind post, but Uliko postet a

/script print((select(2, GetActionCooldown(1))))

and he mentioned that it doesn't matter how much haste you got, say 150 haste -> Global CD of Thorns is GC of LB +0.3

The Tooltip is not wrong but misleading!!! its 20% of BASE Global Cooldown.

Base Global CD is ALLWAYS 1.5 Sec because its the BASE Global CD and does not count haste.

But interesting is that this -0.3 Sec is applied after Haste -> It's for our good.

 

Elorael

I haven't had a chance to test this myself, as I said regarding empirical data, but if that's the case, yes the tooltip is wrong (or misleading). I did note that all the posts regarding the use of those figures was pre-release though, so I'll test it myself to be happy with it in my own mind.

If the collective wisdom is that its 0.3 and not 20% of the haste modified GCD then, cool, it lowers the amount of haste I have to collect. I just didn't want to fall short due to a misinterpretation. I'm not concerned about who is right, just what is right. Though I might be posting a few things at Blizzard

EDIT: Testing on my Boomer respecced to Resto, 1.394 for thorns, 1.094 for Lifebloom.

Therefore GotEM's buff is independent of the Haste, so regardless of which is applied first, they're additive on the base, not multiplicative. Now I have the question: WTF was the point of all the changes in Beta. They could have just taken the 0.5 to 0.3 and walked away.

 

moxy

I've heard this reasoning so many times now that I'm starting to wonder what I'm missing. I feel the exact opposite. High crit on regrowth makes each additional crit% more valuable not less. Healing is about consistency, having a healing spell crit 10% or 15% of the time is of little value, since you are casting it with the expectation that it will not crit. When it does crit it may be a nice bonus, but it will probably go for overheal. But regrowth at 70-75% is expected to crit, and will be cast as such. Having it not crit is the unexpected and dangerous outcome. The fact that it accounts for a small fraction of our total healing is misleading. NS+HT accounts for less than 1% of total healing, but few people want to glyph HT and lose that 1%. It's when it's used that's important, not how much.

I'm also really surprised to not have noticed a single mention of OoC in this thread. OoC management is one of the most important parts of my healing rotations and a major factor in valuing spirit a bit more than int.

 

Maraili

I've thought about this for a while, and while OoC certainly is useful, I find that the times when I would need it most (Sapph or KT) I don't really have the time to keep an eye on my buff bar to watch for it when it appears. I've heard people say it has a unique sound, but I turn off all the sound so I can hear Vent chatter; any suggestions on how to make this more noticeable so it can be taken advantage of more?

 

• Playered

TellMeWhen and Powerauras are two addons which can help show you whatever proc you wish in a fashion you desire.

 

Crytz

Well that Dreamstate build is obviously a no-go, but I'm convinced that a LG/GotEM build like this one might actually be preferable in some raid environments over a conventional Wild Growth build. This should be especially true after 3.0.8's Wild Growth change, and possibly even more so with the introduction of loot from Ulduar.

Gains:

• 75% extra Thorns damage; admittedly a minor bonus but min/maxing is min/maxing right?
• 3% passive haste on *all* spells; 18/0/53 builds already have this, but crit builds don't
• 12% int > spell power; this of course scales with Kings, Mark, and AI, meaning 110+ spell power raid buffed

Losses:

• 2pts in GotEM, which is .12sec added to the base HoT GCD
• Wild Growth
• 2 other points - you cannot afford more than 1/3 of Living Seed, Replenishment, or Natural Perfection.

I'm thinking of this specifically as a 25-man raiding build. I have no doubt as to this build's limitations in all other settings. I am assuming 8% haste from Wrath of Air Totem and Moonkin Aura.

Obviously the most biggest change is the loss of Wild Growth. I'm definitely one in the camp who feels that it's not a necessary spell at all, especially post-nerf. In almost all cases a smart healer can heal just as effectively with our traditional methods of preemptive hotting and swiftmend rejuvs, plus now Nourish.

The next most important factor is that by going to only 3/5 GotEM, your base HoT GCD is 1.32sec. I'm using the following formula:

[1.5 - (1.5 * .12)]/(100 - h) = 1.0 where h is the % haste needed for a 1.0sec GCD, and .12 represents 3/5 GotEM.

If this is correct then you need 24.25% haste for a .9999sec GCD. With 3% from WoA, 5% from Moonkin Aura, and 3% from Celestial Focus (11% total), you need 13.25% haste from gear.

Using Whitetooth's Combat Ratings Figures, 32.78998947 haste rating is needed for 1% haste. 13.25 * 32.78998947 = 434.46736 haste rating needed from gear. Unfortunately it's tricky to balance, but it seems like if you have most-spellpower-in-slot everywhere (like in this sample build) you have almost exactly what you need. Keep in mind, also, that if you're really hurting for the haste you could just use a 22/0/49 build and not worry about it at all, at the expense of 35-40 spell power.

The niche of this build would obviously be on fights with multiple tanks, with either minimal raid healing or with other healers who can handle the raid. For example, the spec would rock on Patchwerk or Sarth 3D. It currently sucks for Sapphiron and it's less than ideal for Loatheb, though.

I'd welcome any comments, corrections, complaints, gold donations, etc.

 

Fallenangel

You need to assume the same amount of points in GotEM in both builds, as both will want to achieve 1sec gcd on their hots. So the comparison is to 18/0/53. This removes the 3% haste benefit. In addtion, you're not missing 2 points in the resto tree but 4 - an 18/0/53 build has 5 points to spend on Replenish / Living Seed / Natural Perfection compared to your 1.
Somewhat ironically, the value of WG should go up with the nerf, not down. Right now if you have 2 holy priests you can just let them spam CoH and focus on tank healing + emergency heals. Post-nerf, that won't be valid and each healer will have to pitch in more, so not having that efficient raid healing spell will force you or your other healers to work harder.
I do think it's a valid build but probably not a default one - like you said it works well in some fights. Maybe with dual spec it can be the 2nd healing build.