ithecho84

I'm kind of confused why this topic has come up for what seems like the fourth time. Did you read Uliko's posts at all? I'm just wondering what the point of all this reiteration is.

Also, in beta GotE went from a flat .5 second reduction to .15 second reduction (10% GCD reduction wording) with mana return on HT/Nourish to .3 second reduction (20% GCD reduction wording). The different wording was most likely to appease the concerned/angry players.


Edit-
Oh I see now.

 

Adriel

The world will never know. :o

I just tell everyone how much haste they need, saves them all that math. 400 haste in a 10-man environment, 220 haste in 25-mans. (220 if you have both a moonkin and shammy/pally) Also, 400-500 mp5 while casting seems to be good regeneration. (unbuffed of course)

 

• Playered

Magic numbers you pull out of your arse have little purpose here.
400-500 MP5 (Mana while inside the 5 sec rule) is an absurd number that you -might- get while raid buffed in pretty solid gear. 400-500 Regen (Mana while outside the 5 sec rule) is a very small number that means you are undergeared for Naxx 10.

For a point of reference I have 261 MP5 / 840 Regen in mostly 25man gear unbuffed with a fairly broad spread of stats (no spiritless items).

I hope you think twice and make sure any 'advice' you give people in future comes with a warning.

 

Adriel

Huh. What ya talking about Playered :o
Ok, since you want a detailed explaination, here it is.

[Noth's Curse]
[Lattice Choker of Light]*
[Spaulders of the Monstrosity]
[Drape of Surgery]
[Heroes' Dreamwalker Robe]*
[Cuffs of Winged Levitation]*
[War Mace of Unrequited Love]*
[Handbook of Obscure Remedies]*
[Idol of Lush Moss]*
[Heroes' Dreamwalker Handguards]*
[Girdle of Lenience]
[Splint-Bound Leggings]
[Boots of the Follower]
[Annhylde's Ring]*
[Signet of Hopeful Light]*
[Spirit-World Glass]
[The Egg of Mortal Essence]*

* items with asterisks are available pre-raiding, via Heroic Dungeons, Emblems of Heroism, and rep rewards. Items without asterisks are available in the first four wings of Naxx-10. And truthfully, many of them have counterparts in Heroic 5-mans.
** meta gem used is [Ember Skyflare Diamond], all other gems are straight spellpower.

For this gear set:

Total Intel: 968
Total Spirit: 964
Total MP5 In FSR: 419
Total MP5 Out of FSR: 1004

These numbers include Gift of the Wild and Blessing of Kings (10%), although just the 2% kings is fine. In addition, with +23 haste enchant on cloak, this gear set-up has 12% spell haste before buffs. Enough to reach 1 second GCD after buffs and GotEM.

Any more questions? Although if anyone needs to know how to run Heroics/Naxx-10, that's best left for another thread.

 

• uliko

Except with those stats you'd have 881 OO5SR regen and 296 inside. Also your profile is not filled out correctly since that character doesn't exist.

Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."

 

Adriel

Rawr is lying to me then :p

edit: rechecked and Rawr was counting Replenishment buff, so you're right. Base MP5 while casting would be ~300 with that set-up. Although with replenishment you will get what you need.

Also, this gear isn't the best that's available in Naxx-10 (ie. the full tier 7 set) or any items that drop off the last bosses. Nor does it include any enchants/gems for regeneration ([Insightful Earthsiege Diamond]/[Arcanum of Blissful Mending]), or even socket bonuses. With all that you should be able to reach 350-400 mp5 while casting by the time you're done with Naxx-10.

One last point, I haven't gotten it myself yet, but [Majestic Dragon Figurine] drops in Obsidian Sanctum-10. Exact regen rate will vary, but with Naxx-10 gear this one trinket is another 75-125 mp5 during boss fights. This is a drop from a starter 10-man boss, in which there shouldn't be multiple trees ;p So I fully expect all resto druids to eventually have this. You won't really need the figurine later on, but it's a good trinket regardless. All combined, the starter gear from OS-10/Naxx-10/5-man heroics will reach 400 mp5 while casting. This regen is in addition to replenish, wisdom, totems, food, flasks, innervate, potions... suffice it to say, it should be enough.

 

• Playered

So first you state "unbuffed" then magically change your mind to include Kings / MoTW.
You also state a blank figure (400-500) excluding any futher information leaving it blind then when challeneged you run around headless trying to find ways to make your numbers work without actually having the items.

There is no way your stats...
... will give you those Regeneration numbers you claim because with higher Int(+50) and Spirit(+200) (MoTW/Kings on me) I have 325 MP5 and 1051 Regen and while your MP5 items will be counted up I highly doubt they will make up for my superior stats.

If you intend to include Replenishment in any figures please seperate them so that other players who read will not get confused and start gemming MP5 in all their gear in some unknowing stupidity because they think their gear is too bad.
For what it's worth 968 Int will give you just over 220 MP5 from Replenishment which means you had under 200 MP5 in your (Rawr calculated) gear.

Oh and MDF is 60-65~ MP5 raid buffed (before 5SR), anything beyond that is based on your own personal time OO5SR of which I doubt you can easily throw around for everyone (if so, math please).
Darkmoon Card: Greatness (Int) gives superior MP5 (about 75-80 last time I mathed it a few weeks back) passive without including any of the 300 Spirit procs or time OO5SR, but this is just for information as MDF is still a very nice trinket especially for those who take several items without Spirit on them.


Rawr is all well and good but having the items actually available to you will let you actually 'know' stats and values while being obviously superior to it as you have just clearly displayed to us. Please note I am not touching your Haste values (that is more ulikos domain) but I will point out any serious flaws in mana numbers with a fair amount of confidence.


Using your figures: Replenish gives 220~ MP5, Wisdom gives 91/110 MP5, a Potion gives 50/120 MP5 depending on typical fight lengths.
With this in mind your passive amount on gear, your food, flasks, totems and Innervate all amount to under 50 MP5 by your magic numbers.

Please refrain from posting until you actually get a Druid and appropriately gear & play with him so that there is a chance you won't post some very seriously bad numbers.

 

Adriel

The numbers are correct. If anyone wants to do the math themselves they are welcome to it. And I would highly suggest they do so, otherwise they are missing on a pretty substantial amount of mana regen.

I didn't intend to use replenenish, Rawr just included it automatically :p Also, I have my replenenishment set to 40% cause I don't like to get overconfident ;p That said, the use/non-use of replenishment has been spelt out.

In any event, the math is correct. You don't like me for some unknown reason. But I listed the gear needed to reach 400 mp5 while casting. That wasn't even really a hard attempt by me, all iI ncluded was basic heroic gear and Naxx-10 gear. More advanced raiders will obviously have access to Naxx-25/Emblem of Valor gear, in which case reaching 400 mp5 while casting will be that much easier.

 

• uliko

Go away, you're dumb.



So even with Kings/MotW you're still coming up 25% short.

And uh, replenishment set at 40%? What the fuck does that even mean? 40% uptime on the replenishment buff? Wow tell your replenishment providers to stop sucking. Also Replenish is not the same as Replenishment.

Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."

 

Jahdruid

How is living seed bugged (if it still is from the time you posted this)?

 

psuko

The bug i spoke of, might just be working as intented, but living seed refreshes with every crit you get with the amount of 30% from efficent heal. The scenario: you cast a big regrowth crit on tank that has lost some health, living seed buff comes on with ~3k stored in to it, you land second crit, but because the tank dodged the last attack the living seed did not go off, and your second crit was fully overheal it refreshes the living seed buff with 0 heal. Tank gets hit and living seed heals for 0.

For more discussion about the subject lets take it to the Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion

 

Fallenangel

All this gearing up for 350 mp5 is uncalled for and only forces the use of spirit and mp5 items. I find that standing at 250 mp5 is more than enough. The difference might seem large, but when you start adding buffs it looks much smaller. Innervate, assuming an 18k mana pool and a 5 minute fight, gives 300 mp5. Replenishment is another 225 mp5. So, ignoring stat raid buffs, the difference is actually between 775 and 875 mp5. In fact, I'd happily swap out a few regen pieces for items with SP, crit and haste, but these are in high demand by the DPS casters and I feel they make better use of them.

 

Maraili

I think that the issue is not having enough mp5 in a 25 man raid setting, but rather in a 10 man, where you are not guaranteed practically every buff in the game. I agree that 250 mp5 is probably plenty for a Heroic raid, but I would feel very uncomfortable going into a 10 man raid with only that. I sit at 307 mp5 (up to 359 with my [Majestic Dragon Figurine] stack) and depending on group composition that is sometimes just barely enough, especially for something like Malygos where you have a significant amount of raid damage that needs to be addressed.

 

Kermit

I have to agree with Maraili too. At first I went for more SP / less mp5, but noticed it made me much less effective. Sure your hots tick for more, but I prefer beeing able to HoT / cast direct heals whereever damage is taken or expected without worrying that mana should be a limiting factor. At the moment I feel I have 325:ish (not sure exactly) mp5 while casting self-buffed and 500:ish in raids, that allows my to heal "full out" in intense fights without oom-troubles. I'd recommend giving priority to manaregen until you reach 300+ mp5 and 1000:ish spirit for any resto druid before concentrating on more spellpower for gear. Also the "mana-restore on spellcast" meta is ace and helps a lot with mana issues.

This is ofc only what works for me, I realize people use different playstyles

 

Norfair

That is what I found as well. Without Replenishment in 10-man it can get tight on the mana. However, in 25-mans I'm hardly running out unless I'm in a pug or whatever. That said, I'm gearing for Ulduar and not Naxxramas-farm, I'm assuming the fights in the next tier of content will take longer and are more demanding in terms of mana regen.

Keep f**king that chicken.

 

Fallenangel

I hardly assumed "practically every buff in the game", but rather a single buff that can be provided by 3 different specs. Problem with replensihment is the old one with spriests in TBC - their mana regen boost was so big that you finished fights with 95% mana if you had them and had to struggle if you didn't. It's not something you can easily gear around or swap a few pieces and be fine.
Another important buff that I'm sure at least some are missing is the mana totems. Group sorting still matters in WotLK for some reasons and this is the big one. A mana spring, even from an enhance shaman, is worth 85 mp5. The resto version is 105 mp5 and tide is 70 mp5 at least. Runic mana potions is another 70 mp5 (both assuming a 5 minute fight). A paladin, again of any spec, can provide at least 90 mp5.
The point is your paper-doll, unbuffed regen is so little of the actual mana gains you get during a fight. Yes, it is usually not a choice between SP and regen, but sometimes it is - trinket slots being the prime example.

 

Rototoro

I agree with Maraili, Kermit, and Norfair here. I have 305 mp5 unbuffed, and in 10-man Naxxramas I find myself pushed on some fights, especially if we're only running 2 healers. Last night in our 10-man we had no shadow priest, no boomkin, and no shaman (we're running 3 10-mans right now, so sometimes group composition gets wierd). I was sitting at 412 mp5 buffed, and just barely made it through Sapphiron.

And I have to express some amount of doubt on Adriel's supposed mana regeneration numbers. I have a good fraction of that gear (armory me if you desire), and unbuffed I'm at 305 mp5. Perhaps he was assuming the best enchants in the game on every piece?

 

• Playered

10 Mans are ment to assume a certain amount of raid buffs/debuffs and im fairly certain Replenishment is ment to be one of the assumed (1x for 10man, 2x for 25man) which is part of the reason why 3 classes can provide it now.

If you raid with no Paladin, Shaman or player able to provide Replenishment then you should struggle unless it is so heavily into farm content that it does not matter anymore.

There is no reason to gear around this situation because it is a very bad one (not to mention in 3.0.8 you might actually end up seeing Survival Hunters again..) and if you actually wanted to do 'non farm' content you should accept that you need -some- synergy.

If you have no mana issues in a 25 man without Replenishment then that is a sign you have too many healers usually.

 

Rototoro

I don't disagree with this, Playered, but the fact is that sometimes we do find ourselves in those situations, so we might want to be prepared for them, or at least understand going in that we might have problems. So, as a point of reference, around 300 mp5 can be tough on a couple of bosses in a 10-man Naxx, notably with only 2 healers. It's doable, no doubt, just be prepared. I don't advocate gearing entirely around such situations, just awareness.

I'm curious what folks are typically taking into 25-man Naxx, in terms of spellpower and mp5. My feeling is that I'm at the point where I can now focus on throughput instead of mana regeneration (I'm at +1630 and 818/305), but am curious what others are taking in. My guild is starting into 25-man Naxx next Monday (we waited this long for a variety of reasons, but mainly absences from the holidays), so I don't have any personal experience.

 

• Playered

When you start up be prepared to use a pot per fight, when you gear up you can stop using said pot per fight. If you lack normal buffs at this stage then you go back to using a pot per fight where required. When you start shedding Healers for more DPS then be prepared to use your pot per fight again on any of the more stressful bosses.

It is impossible to give useful values of MP5 out for people because it depends on your job, your raid composition, the gear of your Tanks and DPS, RNG, the amount of healers & how stupid your raid is.
I'm sure if someone is really bored and can get their entire guild to spend a couple of resets wiping on Naxxramas-25 in order to get some of this useless information for people but until then... nothing.


Here is some basic advice for starting 25man regeneration.

• Upgrade as much of your level 70 gear to 80 gear that you can from either Crafting, Heroics, Reputation or 10 mans, ideally things which have Sta/Int/Spi/SP on them (do not be afraid of cloth, you won't keep it for long).
• Either Glyph your Innervate or get a trinket with a Use: +Spirit for 15/20 sec until your base stats grant you a 100%+ restore naturally.
• Do not start taking many/any items that exclude Spirit until you feel comfortable with your mana and are not relying on your Innervate so often.
• Always bring mana potions (I ended up using most of the remains of my Mana Potion Injectors).

Doing this nets you a lot of extra stats (mainly Int and Spi) which will end up helping you a fair bit thanks to boosting your mana pool for Replenishment and Innervate. You shouldn't lose much SP from your Sunwell gear and the small amounts of Haste you lose out on are quickly recouped later.
Keep in mind that Int is a very valuable stat in WoTLK for mana purposes so taking stat upgrade items that don't really boost your SP will be worth it when starting out.

 

Jahdruid

When I mouse over my rejuv (in tree form with 3/3 moonglow) it says 415 mana (with 2T7), and 446 (normal).

Thanks for the post under me.

 

Norfair

His base mana is incorrect, it's 3496. So that would be 3496*0.18 = 629 without any talents.

Also, Moonglow and ToL stack, so it's not 629 * 0.91 * 0.80, but it's 629 * 0.71. The same goes for the 2 T7 bonus, it reduces base cost (with ToL and Moonglow) by 66% instead of 71% and then 5%.

Keep f**king that chicken.

 

Fateblade

So in an effort to distill some of the aforementioned wisdom, I went ahead and took a shot at making a best in slot list. While this list is by no means exhaustive and is arguable at points, I did give preference to gear with spirit on it since there inevitably will come a day when regen will matter much more than it does in farm status. Also I do understand that you could skip the regen for purer dps pieces, however I'll let someone else work on that list.


[Hood of Rationality]
[Necklace of the Glittering Chamber]
[Spaulders of Catatonia]
[Cape of the Unworthy Wizard]
[Valorous Dreamwalker Robe] / ([Blanketing Robes of Snow])
[Bands of Impurity] / ([Unsullied Cuffs])
[Valorous Dreamwalker Handguards]
[Leash of Heedless Magic]
[Leggings of Mortal Arrogance]
[Boots of Persuasion] / ([Arcanic Tramplers])
[Lost Jewel]
[Band of Channeled Magic]
[Illustration of the Dragon Soul]
[Forethought Talisman]
[Torch of Holy Fire]
[Accursed Spine]


I am making this list with an emphasis on Critical Strike and Throughput. I am using Regrowth as my main spell which can be buffed by haste and crit. So heavily stacking crit will achieve 76.31% with raid buffs. This then increases haste through the Nature's Grace talent. Also Crit buffs Living seed which is not generally accounting for much of my healing, however it does add more throughput. I am making an attempt to reach the soft haste cap of 220 in order to achieve the 1 second gcd assuming raid buffs. And I am going for the 2-piece set bonus since it is quite good however the 4-piece set bonus is in my mind quite cumbersome while there is better gear available in those slots, and I rarely cast Nourish. There are several pieces that I am choosing with an emphasis of crit over spellpower in order to maximize this (14/0/57) build. I also am including the equivalent pieces with >spell power in parentheses in the appropriate slot.

The Skinny
Un-buffed / (fully raid buffed, flasked + food, Spellpower enchants with spirit to cloak & boots, and Runed Scarlet Rubies with an Ember Skyflare Meta)

Mana - 18446 (21656)
Int - 896 (1110)
Spirit - 940 (1199)
Healing - 2537.35 (2748.85)
Haste Rating - 230
Crit - 20.03% (26.31%)

This came from plugging the above gear into Rawr 2.14. I am using all buffs including Imp MOTW, Imp INT, Imp Kings, & Imp Divine Spirit. I am using the 3.08 nerfed value for IotDS. I am not infallible and these numbers could be incorrect. Please correct as necessary.

My main question right now in terms of itemization currently involves whether it is prudent to use enchants and gems to buff Crit further, while still remaining practical. I doubt I'll be swapping out Runed Scarlet Ruby with Smooth Autumn's Glow, yet I wonder what the theoretical maximum is just the same. However [Arcanum of Burning Mysteries] & [Greater Inscription of the Storm ] are attractive and would add 35 Crit rating or .76%

So now we should then try to figure out exactly how much haste a Nature's Grace proc is worth on Regrowth. In order to achieve a 1.5 second regrowth we'd have to have

1.5 = 2(1-x).
x = 25%.

So to get the corresponding haste rating from gear to achieve this 1.5 second cast would need this

1% haste = 32.79 haste rating
25% haste = 32.79 haste rating *25% = 819.75 Haste rating

The place where all this gets hairy is if the Nature's Grace proc can be modeled linearly. If it isnt then detemining the value of Crit in terms of Haste gets harder, and I'm not sure how to model it. If it is linear then a ratio can solve for X. Assuming it is though I'll do some napkin math with some crit % that can reasonably be achieved with gear 76.31%.

76.31%(819.75) = 625.55 Haste Rating

However even if I were naked but still talented in this way I'd still have a 55.6 crit % on Regrowth

55.6%(819.75) = 455.61 Haste Rating

Extropolating furthur

76.31 crit % - 55.6 crit % = 20.71 crit %
625.55 haste rating - 455.61 haste rating = 169.94 haste rating

169.94 haste rating / 20.71 crit % = 8.21 haste rating
1 % crit = 8.21 haste rating

1 % crit = 45.91 crit rating

45.91 crit rating = 8.21 haste rating
1 crit rating = .18 haste rating

Feel free to do your worst with the above Math.

 

Glory

well your math might be correct but i doubt, no time to verifie, but

If you Gear for 25% Haste your on 2/(1.25)=1.6 Casttime. Not 1.5 ...

Further you got in a raid almost all the time a Retri/Moonkin and 1-2 Shamans -> you get 3% + 5% Haste

You need 23.29% Haste in this Raid setup to get a 1.5 Sec Regrowth. So you need around 764 Haste to get 1.5 Sec Regrowth.

If you get those 1.5Sec Regrowth you still got your 65% Crit on it just with Talents and Raidbuffs. So if you Crit, and you Crit alot, your on a 1 Sec GCD Cast of Regrowth, any further Haste is wasted if you Cast Regrowth because most of the Time your lower than GCD.

And your Theory Craft is worthless if you dont have 100% Regrowth crit because of the worst case scenario, you can be at 90% crit but you dont crit for 5 Casts. Its a 1:100000 Chance but it could still happen.

Well if we say you get 770 Critrating or 770 Haste:

then your around 82% Crit
or at 23.29% Haste in Raid setups

Let assume you cast 100 Regrowth in Chain, and we do napkin Math now:

770 Critrating= 82% RG crit and 1.85 RG cast -> 18*1.85+82*1.35=144 Sec
770 Hasterating= 67% RG crit and 1.5 RG cast -> 33*1.5+67*1.0=116.5 Sec

Well that's if it works like you may think it happens but fact is every 20th fight:

4,96% of the times of your 100 RG Castings in the Critrating case you will crit 75 Times or Less -> 147.5 Sec
5,7% of the times of your 100 RG Castings in the Hasterating case you will crit 59 Times or Less -> 120.5 Sec

You see the low Crit Case loses 1 more Crit but, still Haste wins by far, and is more worse case Resistant, in termes when it doesnt crit 3-4 Times in a Row. You can cast another 18 Heals even if all of them dont crit you would've healed more, and more constant, and you can react faster if you dont need to spam Regrowth.

75 *1.95+25*1= 171.05
59*1.95+41*1+18*1=174.25

Factoring Living Seed and with no overscribes, so every Livingseed will be tiggered, and fully heal.
As you see even with Living Seed and assumtion that your 18 Heals you can cast more wont crit, you will heal more. but also less manaefficient.

Well that much about Regrowth as 1 Button low skill Healing Druid.

Just done to proof Haste is not only better for Hots but also for Regrowth. But this Rotation is very Manaintensiv. I like to Lifebloom, RJ, RG, WG all the tanks it suites the Druid heal style better.

 

Norfair

Why make it so hard? Nature's Grace gives a 33% haste buff to Regrowth (or 50% haste buff to Nourish). That means that 1% crit gives (on average) 0.33% haste as well. 45.92 crit rating gives 10.82 haste rating, or 1 crit rating gives 0.235 haste rating for Regrowth.

However, Regrowth heals a lot more with crit since... well, crits heal more and Living Seed adds healing too. I think if you math it in the end crit rating will give you slightly more hps than haste rating, but I'm not entirely sure.

Keep f**king that chicken.