Using that same logic would imply that Haste has a benefit to a spell like Rebirth... sure its on an 10 minute Cooldown, but every 10 minutes, my haste is saving me fractions of a second on a GCD / cast time. Thus it is beneficial to stack Haste so that I can Battle Res more efficiently... no.

And yes I realize that Rebirth is not the best example, however, that is kind of the point as well. There is no other Resto spell that fits the same logic for Tree's (Instant cast, CD based heal). If we want to compare WG to a spell I'd dare say it would compare to how Penance works for priests. But now we are mixing classes and a whole pile of other things.


The problem with your "WG benefits from haste. How it benefits is by costing less time in GCD, which means you can cast another spell." is that the other spell is undefined. It could be Rejuv, Nourish, RG, HT, heck it could be Tranquility, all of those adding different amounts of additional healing.

The base Model for every other Druid heal is based off the ability to spam it. That is how we determine how beneficial Haste is to that spell we can't change the base model for WG to start including additional spells in the equation and expect the model to work, or give a true depiction of the benefits.

Instant casts (or <1.0s cast time) follow a more complex model The GCD becomes a factor in the bottleneck. You can only Rejuv as fast as your GCD is, same with lifebloom, same with <1.0s Healing Touch/Nourish with NGs or Bloodlust.

That situation still gets modeled off of how fast you can spam the spell, it is just there are now more factors involved in it.
Is my spell a shorter cast than my GCD? Yes/no
If yes, GCD is your bottleneck (See B)
If no, your cast time is. (See A)

For example.

A) Healing Touch by default is 3 seconds... until I get that spell below a 1.5 second cast time (glyph, talents, whatever) the GCD doesn't mean anything whatsoever because we are limited to the cast time. Haste is beneficial because it takes time off of that 3 seconds. That is something we can measure, if we have enough Haste to make that a 2 second cast, then we can cast 10 more a minute so [amount healed]*10=additional healing.

B) Rejuv/Lifebloom are instant, immediately capped by your GCD unlike our other spells. Because we can spam them we can still determine their overall effectiveness with haste. With no haste I can cast 40 Rejuvs in a minute. Haste capped I can cast 60 Rejuvs a minute so [Amount healed]*20=additional healing.

Neither of the two models ‘fit’ the situation presented by WG, and thus neither can really be used to model WG accurately. However, creating a new model that involves spells other than WG no longer show the benefit of WG, it shows the overall benefits of our arsenal, which isn’t a good way to do it either.

I would have to disagree that creating a model to show the overall benefits of our arsenal is not a good way to do it. In fact, I would say that's exactly what we should be trying to accomplish. Shouldn't we be trying to more accurately model the effects of haste during an actual encounter? Do we really want to create a model that has no real world application?

I would also have to disagree that haste has no benefit to a spell like Rebirth. Yes, haste's relative value for Rebirth, as compared to a spamable spell, is going to be vastly smaller. However, it is still present because it affects your overall potential. You probably wouldn't want to gear specifically for that purpose, but the benefit exists regardless of it's overall worth.

If we begin by looking at individual spell casts, then hopefully I can more clearly convey my point. To do this though, I would like to stop thinking about spells by which spell it is, but rather by the time within the course of an encounter that it occupies, as this is what haste mainly affects. I will also assume, for the time being, that all healing throughput spells that we cast will not prevent us from casting another spell for more than 1.5 seconds by default.

Beginning at 0 seconds, a spell is cast. That spell is one that will prevent you from casting any other spell for 1.5 seconds by default. The value of haste for that spell cast will be the same regardless of whether it is a 1.5 second GCD instant spell or a 1.5 second cast time spell. At this level I hope we can all agree that the effective value of haste on any of these spells is completely equal.

From this point forward, we continue to only cast spells that prevent you from casting any other spell for 1.5 seconds by default. By the time we make it to 1 minute we have been able to cast anywhere between 40 and 60 such spells, depending on where we fall within the sliding haste scale. What those 40 to 60 spells consisted of is inconsequential because we have effectively reached the potential of our current haste level by attaining the maximum spell casts available to us.

As we begin to consider other influences, such as internal cooldowns, then we can begin to refine the effective value of haste for each spell. At 0 haste level we can assume that a spell with a 6 second internal cooldown can only be cast 1/4th as much as a spell that has no internal cooldown. As such, haste is only 1/4th as effective for a spell with a 6 second internal cooldown as it is for a spell with no internal cooldown at this level. At a haste level that brings all spells to a point where all spells only prevent us from casting another spell for 1 second, then we can see that haste is only 1/6th as effective for a spell with a 6 second internal cooldown when compared to a spell with no internal cooldown.

I understand that haste is in no way, shape or form going to increase the healing throughput of WG for any given amount of time. But, I also understand that WG is not a singular entity that cannot be used in conjunction with other spells. In the same way that we have to factor how much affect haste will have on our potential to cast another spell after a Rejuv, LB or Nourish over a period of time, we also have to factor how much affect haste will have on our potential to cast another spell after a WG over a period of time. Because haste's value lies within it's ability to get you to the next spell cast, you can't look at in terms of just getting to the next WG, or Rebirth for that matter, but rather the next potential spell, whatever that may be.

Well in the context of my post "If a spell is in your rotation then ..." then yes if rebirth is part of your normal rotation having a lower GCD affects the rest of your rotation. You do not stack haste for WG nor for rebirth, but if they are part of your rotation, your rotation benefits from haste until the softcap on these spells too.

This is why I was pointing out it is a perspective of what you are trying to analyze. And you actually clarify the point I was trying to make which is the other spells you cast in your rotation are what benefit from a hasted WG GCD. I originally started to type a paragraph about having to determine the healing gained on every spell and then calculating a weighted average based on usage to see what a WG GCD would gain you on average, but felt it was overkill for the point I was trying to make.

If you are isolating a spell and applying haste to it in order to establish a model, it will not take into account the need for synergy in a rotation which needs to account for an arsenal that has spells that fit different models. Once you cast WG or Rebirth the GCD that they use in the rotation become part of the equation.

Long story short, if you want to model how haste affects individual spells that is fine leave WG out, that is not what I was pointing out in my post. I said WG's healing is not affected by haste and thus could be used as a constantremove it from the equation. My point is however, that depending on your perspective i.e. what you are analyzing haste affects all GCD until you get to 1 sec, if you cast a spell that uses a GCD then haste has had an impact on that spell and if you are looking at healing gains from a rotation or typical fight, then some of that gain is attributed to any spell with a reduced GCD ie WG and even rebirth since you brought it up. Since that healing gain ultimately comes from other spells you can ignore WG if you like; it doesn't change the fact haste affects it though. When you write an equation 2x*2y=4z*2y you can just drop the 2y from both sides to simplify the equation. That doesn't mean it was not part of the equation to begin with, and depending on other math you want to perform off the original data the 2y may be pertinent.

Close. You are on the right track by dividing how haste effects our spells into two separate categories. I believe the weakness with the current numbers deal mostly with our desire to model our healing spells exactly like we do DPS, where cast time (or opportunity time in the case of instants) is our only factor that we’ve looked at.

When thinking about this problem today, I came across the realization. We can separate most of our spells into one of two camps. Instant Casts, and those with a Cast time.

With Cast time Spells (Nourish, Regrowth, Healing Touch, Rebirth) figuring out the value for haste is fairly straightforward. More haste shortens the cast time, this making this spell apply faster. If Nourish used to heal for 8k on a 1.5s cast time, it yields 5333 HPS, by shortening that cast time down to 1s, I’ve increased the HPS of this spell to 8000 HPS. In this case, Haste speeds up how fast I can cast the CURRENT spell, and thus move on to the next spell

With Instant casts (Lifebloom, Rejuvenation, Wild Growth), haste tells us something different. Each of these spells are applied instantly, as soon as the button is pressed. Haste shortens the Global Cooldown, and thus allows you to cast your next spell faster. On a single cast in isolation, haste does nothing to increase the HPS of Rejuvenation (ignoring the Gylph of Rapid Rejuvenation of Course). It is only when we string spells together (Casting Rejuvenation x5 for example) that we even begin to calculate a benefit for haste with that spell. Now, without a specific rotation hammered out before hand, it is nearly impossible the to assign a proper value to haste for an instant casts. It is always dependant on what spell you choose to cast next. If I’m chaining Rejuvenations back to back, yes I can calculate benefit of haste that rejuvenation is receiving. Why? Because the haste is allowing me to cast the spell sooner. This haste for an instant cast then is based off being off of its cooldown sooner, the value for haste on instants are more directly tied to the spell being cast immediately BEFORE it.

Wild Growth is different in some respects, because of its 6s cooldown. It doesn’t cast any sooner because of it. It doesn’t have any DIRECT benefit from haste. As has been said, it does receive some indirect benefits from it. I think you really have to look at the large numbers that caught my eye as I was making my gear rankings to really see what I was trying to minimalize.

Here are two Spells, and their weights from my BiS version of TreeCalcs.

Rejuv – 3.902 SP, 4.539 Haste, 0.000 Crit
Wild Growth – 6.509 Spell Power, 8.946 Haste, 0.000 Crit

Rejuv Haste/SP ratio –> 4.539/3.902 -> 1.16
Wild Growth Haste/SP Ration –> 8.946/6.509 -> 1.37

Making Haste scale BETTER with Wild Growth than it does Rejuvenation. This is counter intuitive. Rejuvenation can see 50% increase in its potential healing done due to haste, even if we were to only get 7 out of 10 Wild Growth Casts, we’re only handicapping ourselves by 30%, and we stand no possibility of actually ‘gaining’ more Wild Growths.

Using my logic from earlier in this post, I would suggest this instead. What the haste value in regards to Wild Growth does, is actually allow me to cast my next spell more quickly. In most/many cases this will be Rejuvenation. Lets substitute the 8.946 value for haste with Rejuvenations value of 4.539. Wild Growth still scales with SP the same way it always has, giving us…

Wild Growth Haste/Spell Power Ratio -> 4.539/6.509 -> .697,

Which at least appears more reasonable. I would suggest this as a 'maximum' value that haste should be assigned. (For Wild Growth)

The logic doesn’t apply the other way however, as the limiting ‘factor’ for using Wild Growth is still the 6s cooldown.

Capulatio,

You have two basic options for gemming. One is to gem heavy SP and rely on CF to hit the GCD cap. The other is to put more points in Resto and gem for haste or sp/haste to hit the GCD cap.

I think both options work fine, and are also somewhat fight dependent. For example, Living Seed is great on NRB and Faction Champs, but it loses a lot of its value on Jaraxxus, Twins, and Anub*. You also have to decide how important keeping 4pc T9 is for you. You need to wear at least two crit pieces to keep 4pc T9, so that's going to make it more difficult for you to reach the GCD cap without CF. Your gear is another factor to consider. If you've been unlucky with drops, lacking DKP, took a break from the game, etc., then you might not have all of the good haste drops and will need to rely more on haste gems.

You're logged out in Moonkin gear now, but I saw your Resto gear when I started writing this post. You were at 708 haste, so I'd consider replacing three of your Runed Cardinals with Reckless Ametrines (12 sp & 10 haste). Doing that would put you just barely over the GCD cap.

Lastly, you can never have too much spell power. It affects every healing spell you have, and there's no "ceiling" for it where spell power starts to decline in effectiveness. Get it as high as you can while paying attention to your haste rating and mana regen.

I hope that helps somewhat.

*LS is probably worth getting if you're handling Penetrating Cold with glyphed HT or Nourish. I've been doing it with Swiftmend and then Rejuving the other PCs, so LS is less helpful for me there.

While I'm aware that, on the PTR, the tier 10 4-piece caused Rejuv to literally jump off of the previous target, has anybody seen definite developer confirmation? I'm unsure of whether I should continue saving frost emblems for a tier bonus that may truly be as awful as it sounds, or to purchase non-tier items.

I'am truly convinced blizzard is going to change that. On PTR we could compare Rejuv 4T10 bonus as benny hill :X "hum ok i'am gonna jump where i want whatever you say..." it's more a pain in the ass than a bonus. Welcome to the random healing style ><

I personally will not be picking up tier gear immediately. In it's current form, the 4 piece set bonus is useless. Since I have access to ilvl 258 T9 I'm ideally going to complete a set with 4 pieces of that and keep it for awhile, because honestly I feel that set bonus is much better than the T10 one even if they change it to a 2% chance to spawn a new rejuv on a nearby target.
If that's how they change the set bonus, how do people feel about it? Personally, I don't think it's that strong even if that is the change. I'd still consider not taking 4 set at all and taking the 2 pieces of T10 with haste on them and then offset gear... and that's if I decide to break T9 at all. With 4 pieces of ilvl 258 T9 it seems like that would still be better than higher ilvl gear. I really don't know, I'm just conjecturing on what the change potentially could be.
Currently, I'm spending my badges on the Vestments of Spruce and Fir because it's a straight 30 haste upgrade over heroic shattered fellowship robes as well as some spell power, and then getting the cloth spirit/haste belt because it's a 20 haste upgrade over the heroic cord of pale thorns. After those two I will get the idol, I guess, then just stack badges and see what they do with the set bonus.

Lets assume it's a copy, it can choose any target and if you had a rejuv on it then the duration is refreshed, otherwise it simply creates a new one. In a blanket situation, assuming rapid rejuv glyph, this amounts to each proc granting you 80% the throughput of rejuv. With 2% per tick, we have a boost of 10% to rejuv. 4T9 with 25% crit is 12.5%, but obviously using T10 will grant you higher stats which make up for that difference, especially when factoring in WG in general and 2T10.
The problem in this model is that if it procs on a target you were covering, then it breaks the hotting order which should be fixed. While you can skip a target if you see it got longer on the rejuv than expected, it seems likely to lead to holes later on in the rotation. I'd say the boost is still worth it, though.

You may want to rethink how "good" the 2T10 is. It is less than 5% increase to WG itself in my gear. 3.2 something if I recall. It is indeed nice to have the ilvl upgrade, and especially if it does fit your healing style, but as a general blanketer, I can hope this will work out for the better, but as of my PTR testing, it doesn't look promising. I wouldn't "avoid" it to say, but rather not run myself knee deep to get it.

What are the best choices for cloaks? I've had the worst luck on getting a decent back... I'm still using Deathchill because I don't want to break my 4pc T9 (regardless of the fact I have 2 pieces of 232) to go full haste so I need the haste.

Other than the BoE from ToC25 or the one off Ony25, what're my options? Am I dragging myself down with this 200 cloak?