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Old 12/15/08, 9:29 AM   #121
Tipperton
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Madmortem (EU)
In a Raid Environment you should only need 175 Haste to reach the Hastecap,
You get 5% of the Wrath of Air Totem of the Elemental Shaman
and another 3% of the improved Moonkin Aura.

Adding up to:

20% Gift of the Earthmother
5% Wrath of Air Totem
3% Improved Moonkin Aura
5,34% Haste of yoour 175 Haste Rating
33,34 Spell Haste for LB, RJ & WG

But this "much" haste you are "forced" to have, because so much Items in WotLK have haste on them...
Having said this I would even go so far to say you should prefer crit over haste.

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Old 12/15/08, 10:07 AM   #122
Kermit
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Aggramar (EU)
Indeed much of the gear have either haste or crit - almost too much tbh. The 50% talented crit to Regrowth makes crit mostly valuble for when you need to use nourish (which, tbh, isn't that often when you got regrowth). The hastecap you will probably reach without trying very hard too.

I hope to see more items like for example [Bands of the Great Tree] in future content updates - we need more sp/manaregen and less crit/haste on our gear imo.

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Old 12/15/08, 10:16 AM   #123
GTtheBard
Von Kaiser
 
GTtheBard's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Sen'jin
Originally Posted by Kermit View Post
Indeed much of the gear have either haste or crit - almost too much tbh. The 50% talented crit to Regrowth makes crit mostly valuble for when you need to use nourish (which, tbh, isn't that often when you got regrowth). The hastecap you will probably reach without trying very hard too.

I hope to see more items like for example [Bands of the Great Tree] in future content updates - we need more sp/manaregen and less crit/haste on our gear imo.
I'm of this mindset as well - Haste is sorta useless, even without the cap (if only because we don't *need* to squeeze our heals into a 7 second cycle). Crit is rendered useless by the natural 50% on Regrowth, though it does help Swiftmend/Nourish/HT, and we get bonuses from Nature's Grace/Living Seed with our Crits. Straight mp5 costs far too much, I'd much rather just see straight stats + SP gear if anything. Though really I think they need to give us some way to scale with Crit, like Shadowform or that Lock talent. Though that might be a different issue entirely.

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Old 12/15/08, 10:39 AM   #124
Fallenangel
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Chromaggus (EU)
What you're saying flies in the face of how itemization currently works. The amount of SP on an item is more or less fixed (+- a few), given it's slot and item level. In addition, as tiers progress, you get more stats, not less. Blue items usually have 4 while the T7 epics have 5.
The only real way to cheat on SP is via gemming. Hence, as a general rule of thumb, items with sockets are better than ones without - assuming the same ilevel, of course.
The lack of scaling from haste and crit has been rehashed here, dating back to WotLK beta. Yes, we scale poorly with both stats - but our SP scaling is unmatched. In blizzard's eyes, this evens out.

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Old 12/15/08, 11:11 AM   #125
Playered
Soda Popinski
 
Playered's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Improved Regrowth does not make Crit Rating useless.
Without any Crit Rating you have around 60%~ raid buffed for Regrowth? not exactly reliable - you would have to assume it will not be a critical and enjoy the bonus if it does because it is not far off a 1:1.
Crit Rating will help you push that up into the values (75%+) where you can almost always count on it being a critical which is obviously a much better place to be in for healing.

Our magical SP scaling is nothing different from a Shadow Priest or Affliction Loc however? or have I missed something where they lost a chunk of that before they got crit conversion talents?.

Haste also will allow you to dump out points in GoTEM which might be useful - this is generally not worth it if you intend to put those points in Natural Perfection though.

It does all depend on your healing style in the end. If Nourish, RG or even HT end up being a high % of your healing then it will be worth investing gear into enhancing it provided that this does not compromise your SP in any significant way.
With WG having a CD and the unknown in Ulduar we might end up having to use direct heals for raid healing as HoTs will not cut it like they do on Sapphiron and such - who knows.



Don't forget about Haste though - just because your spells are cast faster, allowing you to put out better HPS per spell, this does not mean that you are spending more mana to do so.
If you only need to cast 10x RG then Haste will allow you do to do this much faster without any additional cost - if you are just going to spam (stupidly) RG for 20 seconds then Haste will end up costing you mana but you will also get a larger return of HPS from doing so (wether it is effective or not... another story).

Last edited by Playered : 12/15/08 at 11:17 AM.

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Old 12/15/08, 12:08 PM   #126
Fallenangel
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Chromaggus (EU)
When comparing scaling from SP, you need to compare it to other healers, so spriests and locks aren't really relevant. Hots have very high coefficients, with the limiting factor being the number of targets - they can't be spammed on a single target like direct heals. On a hot-friendly fight like Loatheb, rejuving and single-blooming a 10 men raid can produce about 10000HPS in that 3 second heal window. Priests can put out that much healing...but not without CoH.

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Old 12/15/08, 2:14 PM   #127
Adriel
Banned
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Arygos
Well, I'm aiming for about 400 haste rating. Because can't always count on having all buffs, especially in 10-mans :o But beyond that, it does seem more important to achieve consistent RG crits, than faster RG casts.

75% RG crit + Glyph + Living Seed is just mean ;o

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Old 12/15/08, 8:18 PM   #128
Adriel
Banned
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Arygos
Originally Posted by lorelye View Post
The highest spell coefficient should translate into most mana efficient, and more effective heals, right?
What happens if you stack up to 100% crit on Regrowth, ignoring haste entirely? I'm not far off, really, 70-80% crit rate. Would you ever not crit?
100% crit? I like :o

With moonkin aura and a healthy Intel, you will need about 1500 crit rating to max out Regrowth. That's a ton of crit, but I suppose doable. And then Regrowth becomes incredibly potent.

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Old 12/16/08, 7:11 AM   #129
Maraili
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mannoroth
I would just like some quick confirmation, since Wowhead seems to be a bit unclear on it, but judging by the iLevel 213 I assume that [Idol of Awakening] only drops in Naxx25, right?

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Old 12/16/08, 7:44 AM   #130
Playered
Soda Popinski
 
Playered's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Correct.

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Old 12/16/08, 12:24 PM   #131
kywirelessguy
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Priest
 
Thrall
Can someone with sufficient privileges create a new thread concerning Spell Rotations / Healing strategies?

My post count is too low and its bad enough I have to reply to an itemization thread with this crap, but I don't want to add questions about rotations along with it. I dunno, maybe you guys don't care and this is good enough of a place Let me know.

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Old 12/16/08, 12:48 PM   #132
Smartiepants
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Druid
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Gamli View Post
I am looking for criticisms and advice on the merits of this build and where i can make changes. I am confident under the right amounts of haste and mp5 coupled with priority healing rotations (RG>Natures Grace>HT??) that this build will deliver more effective HPS within a raid.
In general I would argue that those builds, while they will work, are not the most effective method of healing. By nature we are still a HoT based class, and considering how well HoTs scale, those builds will likely get outpaced (at the higher regen etc) levels.

The 1s HT build puts you below your GCD also, half second casts aren't really super helpful if you will have to spend the next (0.7s) doing nothing.

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Old 12/16/08, 7:20 PM   #133
Adriel
Banned
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Arygos
Did some rough calculations, and prior to Malygos this is the crit that's possible:

1600 intel (gear+buffs) ~10% crit
800 crit rating (gear/enchants/buffs) ~ 17 crit
Improved Regrowth/Natural Perfection (talents) 53%
Moonkin Aura 5%

Putting the total at 85% crit for Regrowth. About 40% for Nourish/Healing Touch :o This also doesn't require anything particularly special, except making sure all your gear has some crit rating on it. You should still end up getting plenty of haste and mana regen.

If you really prioritize crit, you can get about another 5% from gear/gems. Now, the fact that we can't reach 100% crit, to me at least, means it's not worth going all-out just yet. But once the Uldar raid comes out, that may very well be the way to go heading into Icecrown.

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Old 12/16/08, 7:41 PM   #134
Playered
Soda Popinski
 
Playered's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
I would seriously like to see your "doesn't require anything particularly special" gear-set pre Malygos which provides anywhere near 1600 Int (which is around 1330 pre-buffs) without a heavy cost.

We are not Paladins and socketing/gearing everything with 16 Int or 9 SP/8 Int (which it seems like you are doing) in order to get results which butcher our HoTs, our regeneration* and IV (Glyph is needed to make it provide a full mana pool) in order to give us inferior versions of HL and FoL... well it just seems 'wrong'.

* High Int will naturally give us higher Replenishment gains which almost make up for the loss of Spirit.


While I am naturally a RG lover, and someone indifferent about Haste vs Crit.. I think that going above 85-90% crit on RG will end up doing more harm than good unless we end up doing very serious amounts of our healing from direct heals and HoTs end up scaling very very badly (which wont happen).

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Old 12/17/08, 2:45 AM   #135
Adriel
Banned
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Arygos
Hmm you're right, messed my math somewhere. It should be about 1200-1300 intel. Which is a couple percent crit less, but still high. Also this is only about prioritizing crit over haste; not prioritizing crit over anything else. Gems/enchants/gear should all still be spellpower based.

It doesn't seem like we can reach 100% RG crit with what's available. But even with "just" an 80% crit rate, that's nothing to scoff at. We're always using Regrowth. That + Regrowth glyph + living seed proc + Nature's Grace = very mean healing :o In short, standing by my original point. Would rather have 800 crit rating than 800 haste rating.

Edit: the more I think about it, the more it seems we don't need that much spirit. Guess it's nice to give your innervate to someone else. But why should we? Don't the classes which can most benefit from innervate already stack a bunch of spirit/intel? So shouldn't they be fine on their own, and we can save innervate for our own regeneration? If so, then it may be possible to stack crit, while sacrificing some spirit for haste. (to get to the soft cap) Then with replenishment and innervate, we should be able to make up the spirit loss.

Now I'm not considering totally devaluing spirit. Only itemizing no spirit on 3-4 pieces, and using intel/spellpower/haste/crit gear in those slots. Then stacking other gear intel/spirit/spellpower/crit. Does that seem doable? Stacking intel/spellpower/crit as much as possible, while dividing priority equally between spirit/haste. Almost a moonkin itemization, except we give up more haste for spirit.

Last edited by Adriel : 12/17/08 at 4:16 AM.

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