crmccar

Hey Adoriele,

I'm a little confused about the different rotation types provided. All the rotations labeled with "filler" I assume define what you do while Eclipse is on cooldown. However, it doesn't seem to say anything about what's happening when eclipse is off cooldown or procced. Could you clarify what's going on here? I tried but failed to figure it out from the calc pages. Thanks!

 

• Adoriele

This is what the Eclipse Rotation Type selector is for, though I know it's a bit hard to understand what I'm getting at with that, so I've updated how it displays the rotation: When choosing an Eclipse Rotation Type, the form is pre-Eclipse, Eclipse, post-Eclipse. So choosing "W-SF-W" means that you'll cast Wrath to proc Eclipse, Starfire during Eclipse, and Wrath again during the cooldown. Note that this field DOES NOT UPDATE when you switch your filler type, and the post-Eclipse selection should always match your filler, so if you switch from, say Wrath Spam to Starfire Spam, you will need to re-select your Eclipse Rotation Type, or it will assume you're casting SF-W-SF (W-SF-W if you're using Wrath filler).

v1.1.2 also include a couple scaling fixes, Int and Lunar Guidance being the big ones. It'll be up on the OP in a couple minutes.

 

crmccar

Ok, thanks for answering that. What still confuses me though is that none of the numbers change for the "filler" rotations when i change my eclipse rotation type - only the "spam" rotations do. If I'm understanding your explanation correctly, the "filler" numbers should change too.

 

• Adoriele

Eclipse is not fully-implemented for those rotations yet. It's been mentioned a few times, including the OP.

 

thedopefishlives

If you want some numbers for the "filler" rotations and Eclipse, you can try Rawr. I cannot guarantee that the math is 100% accurate, but it should at least give you a ballpark figure for how much benefit Eclipse will give you.

 

• Adoriele

The numbers are generated on the fly, so I'd have to model the rotations completely before the numbers meant anything. That said:

V1.1.3 is up! V1.1.3 now includes (hopefully) strong support for Eclipse when choosing the IS, MF, Filler rotations. Note that this includes the previous caveats for choosing which Eclipse Rotation Type, in that it assumes you're using the "dumb" rotation unless you specifically choose the "smart" rotation each time you change your filler type. That said, some interesting observations:

The third point in Eclipse is showing strong value even with a high native crit rate when using a smart Starfire rotation (which is the highest DPS rotation available) We're talking on the order of 100 DPS, like the other two points.

The smart Wrath rotation has lower DPS than the dumb Wrath rotation, likely because of Starfire's higher DPET and larger benefit from Eclipse. This means that you really do want to make the switch to a SF filler rotation as quickly as possible.

The Starfire Idol seems to have higher value than the Wrath idol on all but the smart Wrath rotation, likely because of the former observation.

The model makes some assumptions, namely that you will refresh your DoTs the moment they drop. This is NOT OPTIMAL. However, trying to get it coded optimally is going to take a huge amount of effort, which will take time. I wanted to get at least a modicum of support for Eclipse in ASAP. To work out casting DoTs, the model takes the total time spent casting filler, divides it by the DoT durations, then allocates the appropriate partial GCDs to each part of the rotation based on time spent. The duration for Moonfire is assumed to always be full-length on the Starfire filler rotation, but only one Moonfire per rotation is extended in the Wrath rotation (I assume you will get in 3 Starfires during Eclipse in the smart rotation, extension is based on number of pre-Eclipse SFs cast in the dumb rotation).

Now that this set of Eclipse rotations is in, the other DoT-based rotations should come pretty quickly; I just have to copy the pages and remove stuff, rather than make new models. Hopefully I'll be able to get them in during my days off for Christmas, but no promises.

 

• Arawethion

SpamEclipseRotCalcs.E6 reads:
(1-Eclipse/3*IF(SmartEclipse,0.6,1))*IF(SmartEclipse,WCritChance,SFCritChance)*TotalHit

I believe it should read:
(1-Eclipse/3*IF(SmartEclipse,0.6,1))*IF(SmartEclipse,WCritChance,SFCritChance)*TotalHit/(1-D6)

Explanation:
Say you have chance H on a cast to hit, chance C on a hit to crit, and chance E on a crit to eclipse.

Chance to eclipse is HCE. (what you have in D6)
Chance to crit but not eclipse is HC(1-E). (what you have in E6)

But the probability of a crit, provided a spell has not procced eclipse (what you're doing in E6-E7) is not HC(1-E), but HC(1-E)/(1-HCE).

-------------

WNGCast seems to be equal to:
=MAX((WrathMidCast-0.5)/(1+TotalHaste),1)+Penalty*Latency

What's "Penalty"? It seems to be set to 2. This makes my Wrath NG cast time longer than my normal Wrath cast time, which is a bit silly.

-------------

E21 references E6, but I think it should reference E20.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

thedopefishlives

Penalty is a multiplier because the spell queuing system doesn't work for spells that clip the GCD. That's my understanding of it, anyway.

 

• Adoriele

This. A penalty of 1 is (unless I've made an error somewhere), actually not a penalty, but normal, as all spells are subject to latency (though you can make it very small with AHK if you're not worried about Blizzard finding out). A Penalty of two suggests that, since you can't queue a spell while under GCD, you actually have to suffer through the full roundtrip latency effect, which is double your ping. It's a quick-fix, as I'm not sure that 2 is the correct answer, but I'm very sure that 1 is the wrong answer. I made it into a variable, though, so it would be easier to change. You're right that, at high latency, it causes Nature's Grace to actually be a DPS loss.

Actually, now that I think about it, Wrath's cast time should always be the GCD or less, which means it should never be queueable. I'm going to look into this, because that doesn't sound right, as I'm sure I've been queueing it.

As for the calcs in E6, I'm on the fence about them. I wanna run some sanity checks before I upload it, but your theory's definitely sound.

E21, you're probably right. My SOP for generating the Wrath numbers is to copy the whole Starfire section and swap stuff around. Looks like I missed a spot.

 

hquest

Any chance of getting Owlkin Frenzy added to calculations? Or the spreadsheet works most for Patchwerk -like encounters?

 

• Arawethion

How would you suggest this be modeled?

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Ashaera

Modeling Owlkin Frenzy in pretty much hopeless (Or will be very situational) - For common moonkin use I dare claim that theres no good reason to pick Owlkin Frenzy over Brambles (Malygos 5min being the main exception).

Perhaps if they start adding more raid damage later on, but for now its not a very useful talent. Both are fairly low dps boosts, but Brambles is if nothing else more reliable atleast.

---
If you want to model it then figure out what averaged % you wanna examine (Check your wws's for number of hits in the fight you wanna look at, which of the hits can proc it & match with proc chance, uptime etc.)

Look at Moonfury to get an idea of what 10% gives & devide that number by whatever % you calculated to be a realistic Owlkin Frenzy averaged gain.

---
http://elitistjerks.com/988623-post54.html - Is my quick approximation over its value in Naxx fights (Was done after our first clear so fight lenghts are way off).

 

• Arawethion

I'd say Sarth3, more so. This does mean it can be reasonable to spec OF, as for many people (myself included) this is the only challenging thing we're working on each week.

Also, let's generously say Brambles adds 1% average DPS for 3 points. For OF to give that much, it would need to have 10% uptime, which means it only has to proc every 100 seconds. Fights where you take damage every 15 seconds on average don't seem too outlandish. There aren't too many in Naxx because it's so easy, but it's entirely possible that hard fights in later zones will have that much raid damage.

For contrast, imagine how nice a talent OF would be if the current content included Kil'Jaeden, M'uru, Twins, Kalecgos, and Illidan.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Ashaera

I went over my wws from the last 4½-5 naxx clears to check Frenzy value again.

Ill stick to the fights where Im pretty sure what procs it (Leaving sapphiron out fx as I got no idea if the aura triggers or not).

Anub'rekhan
10 hits // 532 sec
1.5proc = 15 sec
Uptime = 2.8%
Averaged %-gain = 0.28%

Faerlina
18 hits // 435 sec
2.7procs = 27sec
Uptime = 6.2%
Averaged %-gain = 0.62%

Maexnna
13 hits // 453 sec
Averaged %-gain = 0.43%

Patchwerk
0 hits

Grobbulus
48 hits // 1353 sec
Averaged %-gain = 0.53%

Gluth
18 hits // 826 sec
Averaged %-gain = 0.33%

Thaddius
48 hits // 1241 sec
Averaged %-gain = 0.58%

Razuvious
59 hits // 959 sec
Averaged %-gain = 0.92%

4h
61 hits // 1335 sec
Averaged %-gain = 0.69%

Noth
25 hits // 1025 sec
Averaged %-gain = 0.37%

Heigan
10 hits // 945 sec
Averaged %-gain = 0.16%

Kel'thuzad
53 hits // 1537 sec
Averaged %-gain = 0.52%

Malygos
A heavy night of 5min attempt wiping with Owlkin Frenzy spec shows me about 0.8procs pr attempt - I guess we called it a wipe around 3mins averaged - So roughly a 0.5% gain there.

Sartharion+3 (Low sample size)
8 hits in 441seconds.
1.2procs = 12sec.
Uptime = 2.7%
% gain = 0.27% -> Sample size might be unfair dunno.

On the same Sartharion my trees list in at 4.33%. If I would have had Brambles (old parse so I dont) that would have been 4.95% / or a total gain of 0.65% damage done over the full fight.


Edit : Sorry for hijacking the thread!

 

Erdluf

I ran some target dummy tests, hoping to determine if Wrath Eclipse is additive with Moonfury or is a global multiplier. I found a few other things in the process.


Tooltips for SF and Wrath seem to show that Moonfury provides a bit more than 10% benefit to base damage. This was true in BC also.

Untalented SF (according to MMO) is 1028 to 1212. With Moonfury, my tooltip says 1141 to 1345, about an 11% increase.
Untalented Wr (according to MMO) is 553 to 623. With Moonfury and LK Idol (+70) my tooltip says 689 to 767, about a 10.7% increase.



Bug in Wrathcalcs 1.1.3:

WrathCalcs Moonfury is 3,6,10% for SF. 2,4,6% for Moonfire. 2,4,7% for Wrath.



WrathCalcs is using 76%/6 = 12.667% coefficient for each IS dot. I'm finding that 12.70% gives better answers:

IS formula (215 + spellpower*coef) * 1.3(glyph) * 1.13 (e&m) * 1.03 (e&m) *1.04 (mss)

1746 SP, no MSS: Ticks are 660 or 661. 12.7% coef says 660.8 vs. 659.9

1841 SP, with MSS: Ticks are 706 or 707. 12.7% coef says 706.2 vs. 705.3

2431 SP, with MSS: Ticks are 824 (only value observed): 12.7% coef says 824.1 vs. 822.9.


Test values for Wrath Eclipse. None of these had IIS. All had LK Wrath idol, Moonfury, personal E&M and target E&M. No Owlkin Frenzy. There were only a few casts at each spell level.

SP 1746, no MSS, damage range 2769-2802.
SP 2336, no MSS, damage range 3359-3418
SP 1841, MSS, damage range 2953-3040.

By my calculations, the bottom end of those damage ranges are too low for Moonfury and Eclipse to be multiplicative. They are in-range for Moonfury and Eclipse being additive. I used Moonfury=10% for these calculations, but worked off of the tooltip base-damage numbers.

 

Anastassius

Lets take into consideration on how many boss fights do the treants survive more than 10 seconds or if the boss is ''available'' for dps over 30 seconds in a row, without any aoe around him.

 

Ashaera

Boss - "available for 30sec just after heroism cast yes/no" - Aoe?

Anub'rekhan - Yes --- Yes impale might kill them, in reality this is a pretty low risk though & they usually survive.
Faerlina - Yes --- There's aoe, but if they die its due to a poor tank/lack of healing & not the encounters fault.
Maexxna - Yes --- No aoe.
Razuvious - Yes --- Distrupting shout wont kill them.
Gothik - Hard to get a full 30sec duration. --- No aoe (looking at the only meaningful casting time).
4h - Yes --- Very strategy dependant, in some cases they will survive full duration & in others they get nuked by 3 boss casts (allthough quite an amazing tool to stabilize a pull / safe ranged tank from slacking healing).
Noth - Yes --- No aoe.
Heigan - Yes --- Tank dependant, but treants will die & fairly fast.
Loatheb - Yes --- Nothing deadly.
Patchwerk - Yes --- No aoe.
Grobbulus - Yes --- Nothing deadly.
Gluth - Yes --- No aoe.
Thaddius - Yes --- Phase 1 nothing / Phase 2 they will die.
Sapphiron - Yes --- They will die.
Kel'thuzad - Yes --- They usually die, but lasts longer than some of the other certain death fights.
Sartharion - Yes --- For 3D perspective they are likely to die in a fissure, but on the other hand brambles helps with adding burst for where it was needed when we had level 70 gear.
Malygos - Yes --- They usually survive.

17 bosses, possible on atleast 16 of those to dps for 30seconds after you popped heroism.
In 10 of the 17 fights chances are very high that they survive for their full duration.
In some cases you can be sure that they wont (Sapphiron, Thaddius p2, 4h some strategies, Heigan) & in others theres a pretty high risk (Sartharion, Kel'thuzad).

So it becomes a matter of preferance, I find it very hard to justify speccing Owl'Kin frenzy before Brambles, but both talents are in the weaker dps department & likely to be dropped if you want more utility or need mana.

 

thedopefishlives

I read somewhere here on EJ that spells gain 5 points of damage per level. This would put Starfire at 1038-1222, which would match your results.

 

Foxx33

Just a few questions, I apologize if some may seem dumb or have already been answered and I missed the answer somewhere. I just recently went Boomchickin prior to Resto.

1) Does a Feral's FF count towards the IFF talent as far as crit goes?

2) Are you going to add mixology buffs from Alchemy to the Elixirs?

3) a. If you have the Rotation of MF IS Wrath as the "filler" and SF on Eclipse proc, do you keep up MF during Eclipse or just spam SF and MF IS afterwards?
b. Same thing but MF IS SF Filler and Wrath on Eclipse, do you keep up IS for the increased damage buff?

4) When do most of you pop the Potion of Speed? I'm guessing when an eclipse procs?

Thanks, Foxx

 

Ashaera

1) Yes.
2) Add 37 sp yourself?
4) Answered here : http://elitistjerks.com/1097541-post415.html

 

Foxx33

I meant for the OP to add Mixology to the Spreadsheet and Thanks for the replies, but i'm still waiting on an answer to question 3.

 

• Adoriele

I doubt I will. As Ash said, it's fairly easy to add in the extra spellpower yourself, and I'm not sure of the benefits from other flasks/elixirs which would be necessary to fully implement it. Plus, all other professions need to add in their benefits through base stats as well. The only reason I'm supporting Flasks and Elixirs, really, is because they're temporary buffs which don't show up on most people's armory easily enough for them to include on their own.

That said, expect another update soon, to account for the new mana regen nerfs. As predicted, Intensity will be very similar to its previous performance. Innervate, though, is dropping like a rock.

 

Foxx33

Alright, still no replies as to what you peoplez do. Do you keep up mf for sf eclipse or is for wrath eclipse? Like a poll question to see what people think about it, unless it's already proven better otherwise, or am I missing something and looking like a dork? >.<

Edit: Also since Ash said that Feral FF counts for 3% crit i'm going to leave it in my spec, I was debating on dropping the three points in lets say Gale Winds and Maxing out trees any suggestions?

 

Kug

Hi Adorielle,

First of all, thanks for the Squawk and awe mod which is very useful. Just yesterday i was playing around with this spreadsheet of yours.

I've had terrible luck getting the starfire idol to drop from instructor, and according to your spreadsheet the wrath idol basically sucks (~10dps for the best rotation which is starfire heavy).

I was thinking the blue starfire idol, "Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess" which adds 55 spell damage to starfire would therefore be better dps than the new wrath idol. Since it has 1/3rd the spellpower of the epic version, simplistically I think it should add 1/3rd the dps of the epic version (1/3rd of 150dps is 50dps), and therefore be higher damage for a normal rotation than the wrath idol which only adds ~10dps.

Convenient link to the idol
[Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess]

I briefly experimented adding it myself, but modifying complex excel sheets written by someone else is definitely not my forte.


Edit: As a side note but related to this, in Rawr, for a IS/MF/SF rotation (whatever that means as you and others pointed out), the epic starfire idol gives me ~100 dps and the wrath idol gives me ~30 dps. In your spreadsheet model, the epic starfire idol is giving me ~150 dps, and the wrath idol is giving me ~10 dps. That seems like quite a disparity, which could be due to the different models or possibly due to a bug in someone's model?

 

• Adoriele

Rawr's engine is being overhauled for the next release, and the new engine looks to rate the Idol similarly to how WC does, at least for someone in gear close to mine. As for dealing with the 70 idol, you're probably right that the DPS benefit will be ~1/3 of the Epic idol. If you'd like to change it, though, go to the Starfire Calcs page and edit C3. Near the end should be 165, change it to 55 and you're all set. I may have changed this since release, though, so just to be safe you'll want to do it on the new version, 1.1.4, which I'm tossing up in the next few minutes.

As noted before, 1.1.4 has the mana regen nerfs. It also changes the Eclipse Rotation Type field to be more intuitive (yet again), and changes IS,MF,Eclipse rotation to more accurately reflect newer thoughts in DoT upkeep. Namely, it assumes you cast both IS and MF twice, just as Eclipse ends and just before the ICD ends. The mana calculations for this, and the Wrath version of this rotation, or not yet fully-implemented.