vyce

The mod Pawn allows you to enter values for each stat so that you can compare items more easily.

Note, these values change as gear changes, but it is at a decent approximation of the value of each item. Rawr/Spreadsheets/Experience are superior sources of information.

Over in the Paladin forum we have a thread going with Pawn values in order to help determine gear value for the different specs. A friend of mine is looking for something like this for his druid, specifically for bear and cat forms. Since there was no thread going already, I figured I'd start one. I'll update this thread with suggested strings.

Feral Cat (dps):

( Pawn: v1: "kiku cat dps": ArmorPenetration=0.12, MeleeDps=2.71, CritRating=0.61, Strength=1.03, Agility=0.93, HitRating=1.06, ExpertiseRating=1.06, HasteRating=0.70, FeralAp=0.44, Ap=0.44 )

Feral Bear (tank):

Resto (healing):

( Pawn: v1: "red's resto": Intellect=5.794, RedSocket=178.562, CritRating=2.047, ColorlessSocket=178.562, MetaSocket=339.242, HasteRating=2.866, BlueSocket=114.582, YellowSocket=130.934, SpellPower=9.398, Spirit=5.133, Mp5=10 )

( Pawn: v1: "vom's resto": Intellect=54.0, CritRating= 8.5, SpellPower= 52.5, Spirit= 58.9, Mp5= 100 )

Balance (dps):

edit: updated 12/14/08

 

Humbaba

The general rule for druids is to use Rawr since the weights change as your gear changes.

 

vyce

That's actually true for almost every class (afaik). Pawn is good as a sort of guide rather than a hard rule.

 

RareBeast

I generally punch the stat values Rawr gives me into Pawn for reference as well as putting them into Lootrank for an offline guide.

 

Miim

I havent used Rawr that much, could you maybe help me out where I can find the current stat weighing displayed in Rawr?

 

◊ Gryth

Get all your gear loaded up, choose the correct model (Cat vs Bear vs etc), then at the top of the right-hand frame (Comparisons), there's a dropdown labeled "Chart". It's set to "Gear > Head". Click there, and go down towards the bottom of the list. You want "Relative Stat Values".

 

red

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear as if Rawr has relative stat values for the Tree model. It also seems to way overvalue haste and crit ratings, based on items and gems it recommends. I think a 'general guide' would be useful to many restoration druids out there, especially those who are still working on gear from heroics and maybe some of the 10 mans. As a starting point, let's use values from this post in the itemization thread.

( Pawn: v1: "resto": Intellect=5.794, RedSocket=178.562, CritRating=2.047, ColorlessSocket=178.562, MetaSocket=339.242, HasteRating=2.866, BlueSocket=114.582, YellowSocket=130.934, SpellPower=9.398, Spirit=5.133, Mp5=10 )

In a format that is easier to read:
Intellect: 5.794
Spirit: 5.133
Spellpower: 9.398
Mp5: 10
Crit Rating: 2.047
Haste Rating: 2.866

Socket values in the string are based on the following gems; I don't know if they're optimal.
[Luminous Monarch Topaz] [Royal Twilight Opal] [Runed Scarlet Ruby] [Ember Skyflare Diamond] (The +2% int assumes 900 int)

Would anybody like to suggest improvements?

Personally I might consider lowering haste and crit values, and increasing spell power, due to scaling issues. I would also bump up spirit and lower int, since I don't raid with replenishment (another issue entirely).

Ah right, thanks. Fixed.

 

• Diameter

Unfortunently, [Purified Twilight Opal] can not be cut in game. Hopefully they add in a lot of gem recipies (as well as some extra enchants) in the next patch.

 

Kiku

I'm unfamiliar with PAWN, but perhaps this information can be helpful.

For cat dps, according to RAWR, with all current best in slot items, you'll get a stat breakdown something like this:

Loot Rank for WOLTK

I think I had to change gear around slightly to be under the expertise cap inorder to see a value.

 

Iceman69

Agreed. I don't even bother pulling up Rawr to analyze gear options for my resto set. It is so heavily skewed towards crit and haste and devalues spirit and mp5 to the point that I find to be a ridiculous waste of time to analyze relative gear values with that model.

 

• giansm

There is no Pawn string that works for everyone. Stats have different values depending on what you are currently wearing and what buffs you have, and so the "right" Pawn string can change wildly from person to person. It would be better to fix the Rawr module or create a good spreadsheet than to try to come up with the one true Pawn string (since it doesn't exist).

 

RareBeast

Yes, the tree module seems to have an issue there - I noticed that changing the duration of the fight seemed to have no impact on the value of mana regen, so I think there is something broken with the fight duration option. I've posted on the Codeplex site but haven't had a response from Astrylian yet.

 

Vomityn

These are the stats that I came up with for Resto:
Intellect 29.2
Spirit 60.6
SpellPower 22.6
MP5 136.2
Crit 0.4

These values are calculate from a model (rawr+excel) around keeping up 3 HoTs (RJ, RG, 3xLB) until OOM and then regenerating your mana. Rise and repeat. This basically gave me a total HPS that I could produce over an infinite time. I produced the model for +10 int, spirt, sp, mp5, and crit. The above stats are the HPS(x10 scale) difference from base.

Before you go poking holes in my model... this was built very roughly for my way of healing and has given me excellent results on LootRank pre-raiding. Of course you'll need to decide for yourself if this fits your methods or not.

Unfortunately, I forgot to include haste in my stats.


PS: First time posting.

 

red

This is a given with any stat weights. However, I think that people just starting off on the path of making informed gear decisions could definitely benefit from a point to start from. It doesn't have to be 100% accurate for all druids all the time, just useful for some players at a certain gear level to get in the ballpark. In the paladin pawn thread it makes sure to indicate that the values are approximations, and stat values change as your stats change. Perhaps this thread could use a similar disclaimer.

 

vyce

Thanks for all the latest feedback. I will be updating the OP today to reflect some of your values.

 

vyce

I've added yours, but it does seem to be missing socket values. Any thoughts?

 

Iceman69

I agree the value of each stat is relative and dynamic, there is no one size fits all scale. But there are scales that will result in lists of gear where you can look at the resulting values and quickly see if the item is even worth considering.

Right now Rawr's tree model is broken and there's nothing I can do to change it. But I can enter a scale into Pawn or set values on Lootrank and get some useful results. They aren't the kind of results where you should just blindly take the highest "rated" item, but they are the kind of results where I can determine if an item is worth considering, and even Rawr's results should not be blindly accepted. You need to understand the dynamics, your play style, what you are trying to accomplish, etc. and make a smart choice from the options available, these tools all just serve to bubble the "best" options to the top.

I've got a scale in Pawn that tells me that [Helm of Anomalus] and [Horned Helm of Varos] are among the best pre-raid head pieces in the game. Using Rawr [Helm of Anomalus] would appear to be not even worth considering, it even offers up a quest green [Shock-Proof Head Protector] as higher rated which would almost certainly lead most to ignore the existence of Anomalus. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out that Rawr's model is seriously flawed when you notice things like this... While the Pawn scale may be inflexible, it's more useful than Rawr's dynamic scale which are is horribly flawed right now.

The Pawn scale in the first post is a nice quick and dirty scale to help sort through gear options. You can quickly compare two items values. If there is a huge difference in the numbers you can pretty much make a snap decision. But if they are relatively close in value, then you know it's an item to do a detailed analysis of and determine which better suits your needs and works with your current gear (and your future gear).

 

Kiku

I just ran it again to double check (this time making sure I had the best version of every buff selected, food buff, and flask, 20 str gems, but no heroism) and got the following:

ArmorPenetration=0.11, MeleeDps=2.51, CritRating=0.57, Strength=1.12, Agility=0.88, HitRating=0.92, ExpertiseRating=0.92, HasteRating=0.68, FeralAp=0.49, Ap=0.49 )

The values are higher, but the relation of them to each other stays pretty much the same.

For socket values I'd say any socket should be used as a 20 str gem. Not sure what to value the meta, but that seems like a non issue since any helm you are considering vs another helm will both have the meta.

 

mesullivan

This is a reasonable idea for a model, but I think you've been tripped up. The values didn't pass the smell test for me (they are vastly different than values suggested by calculations in the tree threads), so I thought a bit about what you are probably doing here. My guess is that you did not consider raid buffs to mana regen, which has a number of dramatic effects. Replenishment procs as a % of total mana, so it's value is directly affected by int. It's also a significant portion of total regen in a raid environment to the point where having it roughly doubles the value of int relative to other mana regen stats.

The next thing that doesn't make sense is the relative value of spellpower vs. regen stats. If you are ignoring raid replenishment and innervate, then you are assuming being mana bound even on fairly short fights in a way that simply does not happen in the game. The rotation you have described is a fairly low-stress one that can be implemented so as to spend almost 1/2 your time outside the 5-second rule. With raid-level gear and standard 25-man buffs you should be able to keep that rotation up just about long enough to get through an innervate cooldown. If your model has you running out of mana often enough to judge spirit as 3 times as valuable as spellpower, I'm certain you are working with very low levels of int and spirit on your gear, or not considering raid buffs.

I poked holes in your model anyway. One thing to realize is that any non-asinine model will give semi-reasonable results on actual loot, because there are only so many options and they are not all that different in value.

The point of a model is to come up with something *better* than simply looking at the item level and whether it has your stats or not, so you can tell whether the piece with 70 spirit is better than the piece with 70 spellpower or whatever. They will both be playable, and the difference between them will not make you unusable as a healer until you are in the wrath equivalent of sunwell, but a good model might give you 5-10% more throughput than a bad one given the gear choices you come up with. EJ is about getting that 5-10%.

 

AncientHeart

Where can i get Rawr?

 

Kiku

google -> rawr = Rawr - Home

 

kiyona

Sorry if I fail at reading comprehension, but do these values assume you are getting replenish in your raid? I'm currently in a smaller 10-man raidgroup where we don't have access to replenish and hence I value regen alot. What values would be apropriate to input in Pawn if you assume you will be using Innervate on yourself, but will not have access to replenish?

Thanks

 

red

I assume you mean Replenishment, not Replenish. My apologies if that assumption is incorrect.

Yes, those values assume replenishment. The value of intellect goes way down without replenishment. If you check Norfair's post in the itemization thread, he laid out his estimates/calculations for the different components of each stat. He gave a value of .206 mp5 per intellect just from replenishment. If you scroll down to Whïspur's post you can change the intellect value accordingly to remove the replenishment bonus.

Instead of intellect being worth .523 mp5, it would be worth .317. Intellect would then come out to around 37.34, if my terrible math skills are to be trusted. Of course this is partially based on his estimate of 1% crit being worth 10 spell power, which as far as I know is entirely subjective.

 

Morimoto

To be fair, this issue looks like a bug with Rawr's Tree model. I found the same issue myself and this post on the Rawr boards confirms it is a bug that should be fixed in the next release.

 

Kiku

Fairly major change made to RAWR yesterday related to shred damage. Re-ran with all best in slot and came up with the following:

ArmorPenetration=0.12, MeleeDps=2.71, CritRating=0.61, Strength=1.03, Agility=0.93, HitRating=1.06, ExpertiseRating=1.06, HasteRating=0.70, FeralAp=0.44, Ap=0.44