Pawn addon values for all specs - Page 2

vyce · 12/10/08, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by Kiku

I'm unfamiliar with PAWN, but perhaps this information can be helpful.

For cat dps, according to RAWR, with all current best in slot items, you'll get a stat breakdown something like this:

Loot Rank for WOLTK

I think I had to change gear around slightly to be under the expertise cap inorder to see a value.

I've added yours, but it does seem to be missing socket values. Any thoughts?

Iceman69 · 12/10/08, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by giansm

There is no Pawn string that works for everyone. Stats have different values depending on what you are currently wearing and what buffs you have, and so the "right" Pawn string can change wildly from person to person. It would be better to fix the Rawr module or create a good spreadsheet than to try to come up with the one true Pawn string (since it doesn't exist).

I agree the value of each stat is relative and dynamic, there is no one size fits all scale. But there are scales that will result in lists of gear where you can look at the resulting values and quickly see if the item is even worth considering.

Right now Rawr's tree model is broken and there's nothing I can do to change it. But I can enter a scale into Pawn or set values on Lootrank and get some useful results. They aren't the kind of results where you should just blindly take the highest "rated" item, but they are the kind of results where I can determine if an item is worth considering, and even Rawr's results should not be blindly accepted. You need to understand the dynamics, your play style, what you are trying to accomplish, etc. and make a smart choice from the options available, these tools all just serve to bubble the "best" options to the top.

I've got a scale in Pawn that tells me that [Helm of Anomalus] and [Horned Helm of Varos] are among the best pre-raid head pieces in the game. Using Rawr [Helm of Anomalus] would appear to be not even worth considering, it even offers up a quest green [Shock-Proof Head Protector] as higher rated which would almost certainly lead most to ignore the existence of Anomalus. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out that Rawr's model is seriously flawed when you notice things like this... While the Pawn scale may be inflexible, it's more useful than Rawr's dynamic scale which are is horribly flawed right now.

The Pawn scale in the first post is a nice quick and dirty scale to help sort through gear options. You can quickly compare two items values. If there is a huge difference in the numbers you can pretty much make a snap decision. But if they are relatively close in value, then you know it's an item to do a detailed analysis of and determine which better suits your needs and works with your current gear (and your future gear).

Kiku · 12/10/08, 1:22 PM

Originally Posted by vyce

I've added yours, but it does seem to be missing socket values. Any thoughts?

I just ran it again to double check (this time making sure I had the best version of every buff selected, food buff, and flask, 20 str gems, but no heroism) and got the following:

ArmorPenetration=0.11, MeleeDps=2.51, CritRating=0.57, Strength=1.12, Agility=0.88, HitRating=0.92, ExpertiseRating=0.92, HasteRating=0.68, FeralAp=0.49, Ap=0.49 )

The values are higher, but the relation of them to each other stays pretty much the same.

For socket values I'd say any socket should be used as a 20 str gem. Not sure what to value the meta, but that seems like a non issue since any helm you are considering vs another helm will both have the meta.

mesullivan · 12/10/08, 3:26 PM

Originally Posted by Vomityn

These are the stats that I came up with for Resto:
Intellect 29.2
Spirit 60.6
SpellPower 22.6
MP5 136.2
Crit 0.4

These values are calculate from a model (rawr+excel) around keeping up 3 HoTs (RJ, RG, 3xLB) until OOM and then regenerating your mana. Rise and repeat. This basically gave me a total HPS that I could produce over an infinite time. I produced the model for +10 int, spirt, sp, mp5, and crit. The above stats are the HPS(x10 scale) difference from base.

This is a reasonable idea for a model, but I think you've been tripped up. The values didn't pass the smell test for me (they are vastly different than values suggested by calculations in the tree threads), so I thought a bit about what you are probably doing here. My guess is that you did not consider raid buffs to mana regen, which has a number of dramatic effects. Replenishment procs as a % of total mana, so it's value is directly affected by int. It's also a significant portion of total regen in a raid environment to the point where having it roughly doubles the value of int relative to other mana regen stats.

The next thing that doesn't make sense is the relative value of spellpower vs. regen stats. If you are ignoring raid replenishment and innervate, then you are assuming being mana bound even on fairly short fights in a way that simply does not happen in the game. The rotation you have described is a fairly low-stress one that can be implemented so as to spend almost 1/2 your time outside the 5-second rule. With raid-level gear and standard 25-man buffs you should be able to keep that rotation up just about long enough to get through an innervate cooldown. If your model has you running out of mana often enough to judge spirit as 3 times as valuable as spellpower, I'm certain you are working with very low levels of int and spirit on your gear, or not considering raid buffs.

Before you go poking holes in my model... this was built very roughly for my way of healing and has given me excellent results on LootRank pre-raiding.

I poked holes in your model anyway. One thing to realize is that any non-asinine model will give semi-reasonable results on actual loot, because there are only so many options and they are not all that different in value.

The point of a model is to come up with something *better* than simply looking at the item level and whether it has your stats or not, so you can tell whether the piece with 70 spirit is better than the piece with 70 spellpower or whatever. They will both be playable, and the difference between them will not make you unusable as a healer until you are in the wrath equivalent of sunwell, but a good model might give you 5-10% more throughput than a bad one given the gear choices you come up with. EJ is about getting that 5-10%.

AncientHeart · 12/11/08, 4:30 PM

Where can i get Rawr?

Kiku · 12/11/08, 6:13 PM

Originally Posted by AncientHeart

Where can i get Rawr?

google -> rawr = Rawr - Home

kiyona · 12/12/08, 6:56 AM

Originally Posted by red

( Pawn: v1: "resto": Intellect=5.794, RedSocket=178.562, CritRating=2.047, ColorlessSocket=178.562, MetaSocket=339.242, HasteRating=2.866, BlueSocket=114.582, YellowSocket=130.934, SpellPower=9.398, Spirit=5.133, Mp5=10 )

In a format that is easier to read:
Intellect: 5.794
Spirit: 5.133
Spellpower: 9.398
Mp5: 10
Crit Rating: 2.047
Haste Rating: 2.866

Sorry if I fail at reading comprehension, but do these values assume you are getting replenish in your raid? I'm currently in a smaller 10-man raidgroup where we don't have access to replenish and hence I value regen alot. What values would be apropriate to input in Pawn if you assume you will be using Innervate on yourself, but will not have access to replenish?

Thanks

red · 12/12/08, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by kiyona

Sorry if I fail at reading comprehension, but do these values assume you are getting replenish in your raid? I'm currently in a smaller 10-man raidgroup where we don't have access to replenish and hence I value regen alot. What values would be apropriate to input in Pawn if you assume you will be using Innervate on yourself, but will not have access to replenish?

Thanks

I assume you mean Replenishment, not Replenish. My apologies if that assumption is incorrect.

Yes, those values assume replenishment. The value of intellect goes way down without replenishment. If you check Norfair's post in the itemization thread, he laid out his estimates/calculations for the different components of each stat. He gave a value of .206 mp5 per intellect just from replenishment. If you scroll down to Whïspur's post you can change the intellect value accordingly to remove the replenishment bonus.

Instead of intellect being worth .523 mp5, it would be worth .317. Intellect would then come out to around 37.34, if my terrible math skills are to be trusted. Of course this is partially based on his estimate of 1% crit being worth 10 spell power, which as far as I know is entirely subjective.

Morimoto · 12/12/08, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by Iceman69

Agreed. I don't even bother pulling up Rawr to analyze gear options for my resto set. It is so heavily skewed towards crit and haste and devalues spirit and mp5 to the point that I find to be a ridiculous waste of time to analyze relative gear values with that model.

To be fair, this issue looks like a bug with Rawr's Tree model. I found the same issue myself and this post on the Rawr boards confirms it is a bug that should be fixed in the next release.

Kiku · 12/12/08, 5:14 PM

Fairly major change made to RAWR yesterday related to shred damage. Re-ran with all best in slot and came up with the following:

ArmorPenetration=0.12, MeleeDps=2.71, CritRating=0.61, Strength=1.03, Agility=0.93, HitRating=1.06, ExpertiseRating=1.06, HasteRating=0.70, FeralAp=0.44, Ap=0.44

Vomityn · 12/14/08, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by mesullivan

This is a reasonable idea for a model, but I think you've been tripped up. The values didn't pass the smell test for me (they are vastly different than values suggested by calculations in the tree threads), so I thought a bit about what you are probably doing here. My guess is that you did not consider raid buffs to mana regen, which has a number of dramatic effects.

I revisited my model after reading your post and it look's like I've been completely delusional with those values. Unfortunately, I made an error with Mp5 that threw all calculations out. I really should have noticed that it was wrongly suggesting that +12 spirit gems > +16 SP gems. Fixed now.

I also noticed that RAWR has strange values for mana cost that doesn't align with what I understand to be correct. Take for an example Rejuv, which RAWR says costs 761 mana talented. However, I come up with only 446 mana (18%*(100%-9%-20%)*3496). I'm at work and can't check these. Someone?

Anyway, the end result is as follows (assuming replenishment):
Int: 54.0
Spirit: 58.9
SpellPower: 52.5
Mp5: 100
Crit: 8.5

Solister · 12/20/08, 10:16 PM

I'd be interested in knowing how these calculations are done. How did you get those results? What are the numbers based on?

humbe · 01/14/09, 5:15 PM

Didn't see any bear tank pawn ratings so thought I'd post mine here.

I created my own mitigation gear calculation in order to better understand what gear is best for mitigation.

World of Warcraft - Evaluating druid tank gear

I update it with paperdoll stats based on my current gear, and that updates pawn values for me and gives me links to wowhead for sorted list of equipment for various slots.

Current Tank - Bear Raw Mitigation: ( Pawn: v1: "Current Tank - Bear Raw Mitigation": MetaSocket=566.4210, BlueSocket=424.8157, YellowSocket=424.8157,, RedSocket=424.8157, Stamina=17.7007, Agility=16.9549, DodgeRating=13.4718, DefenseRating=9.8322, BaseArmor=7.8020, ExpertiseRating=5.3939, Health=1.0120, BonusArmor=1.0000 )

Doesn't seem like altering gear alters the weights that fast. Anyways.. Can't just calculate everything either. The above weights are based on a TTL approach assuming that boss does all damage as physical auto-attacks for instance.

kruthos · 02/01/09, 1:31 AM

I've been using Rawr as a boomkin currently at level 77 with just over 1000 spell power. Curiously Rawr is always showing that Spell Power gives me more of a damage boost than hit does. Does this change later because everybody always says get to the hit cap first.

Monedula · 02/01/09, 9:27 AM

Originally Posted by kruthos

I've been using Rawr as a boomkin currently at level 77 with just over 1000 spell power. Curiously Rawr is always showing that Spell Power gives me more of a damage boost than hit does. Does this change later because everybody always says get to the hit cap first.

Well that is what I (feral) have with rawr too. I really wanna be hitcapped. Every ~33 hit rating gives me 1% more hit chance. So if my hit chance is 95% and I add 1% a mere 33 hit rating gives me 96/95% (= little over 1%) more damage.
Rawr doesn't strive for a hit cap as far as I know. I can advice you to get the best items there are and meanwhile try to get hitcapped and as soon as you are stay that.

However I must also say you "misuse" rawr. Rawr is no tool to tell you what items are worth at level 77. It is nice to see if you better swap an item, but the tool is aimed at bossfights at level 80. Some items valued a lot in rawr are worthless for leveling. I would suggest you don't worry about the specific stats for now, just dont sell the items that have hit on them. When you hit 80 try got see what gear you need to get the hit needed and go for that.

PS a small calculation: If you can now swap an item with 33 hit and 50 spellpower for one that is 0 hit but 80 spellpower, the spellpower will win. It currently means you get 30 extra spellpower. That is 3% more spellpower which translates into more damage even if you miss that extra 1% sometimes.