Yeah, this was with all raid buffs.

That's why we have stuff like [Glove Reinforcements] listed? If that deserves to be there then +22 defense does too.

The glove reinforcements is the best alternative listed by rawr. 22 defense is the nr 4 alternative enchant listed.

The term "best" can be a little misleading, I assume you are filtering for "overall" (mitigation, survivability, threat).

For a player who has decided their threat is not an issue (let's face it, we get a lot of threat stats on gear anyway, 10 strength should not make or break your tanking abilities), and who already has "enough" stamina to survive some unlucky burst damage, they will be looking to stack avoidance as much as possible.

This seems like a viable option to me - personally I don't really care too much about threat stats and would be balancing the extra 160 or so health of the stamina with the extra avoidance from the defense.

I looked into rawr enchants for kitty dps and...

Rawr (2.1.6) states mongoose is better than massacre for dps. Is this true? I would hate to replace an enchant worth a few thousand gold in materials for an alternative based on a single source. Mind-math states from what I recall mongoose worked out for be worth less than 40 agi for kitty thus it should come out to a value closer to greater savagery (~75-80ap) raid buffed... but am I forgetting the haste? Is Mongoose better than Massacre for DPS?!

Berserking appeared really high, and the armor reduction (25% now?) appears to be decreasing to something more usable. I like the previous note of a mod (outfitter) switching weapons/(idols?) on shapeshift. I will definately enchant berserking post 3.08 when mats are nurfed.


As a side-consideration I wonder how blizzard plans to address the lack of need for stamina. In current raid content I have seen nearly all tanks stack avoidance. The only need has been 3 drakes where one has a 25% health nurf and a breath can hit for 43-45,000 damage. Made a lolstam set for over 50,000 health (40ishk hp with the nurf raid buffed), never thought I would actually wear it... as mentioned earlier cap FrR for a fire dragon is ftw.

My other hope is they push tanking needs beyond 2 tanks and sometimes a hybrid in 25-man. I am sure everyone here has seen the sting to tank ratio from 5's, to 10's, to 25's. WTB dual spec now.

I got Rawr 2.1.6 myself and for me massacre appears higher (50% more about) then mongoose. So massacre is the way to go. You must have real weird gear for that to be worth more.

Looking at berserking it seems really high. Discussion on it has been that it indeed is better, but maybe only 25% then massacre. To have 100% better then massacre seems a bit overrated. Maybe the 45 second cooldown has not been implemented for it in rawr.
To check I switched to bear stats. Mongoose there is also not correct I think. It is 2-ce as good as the 35 agility enchant. You yourself said overall mongoose is about 40 agility spread out over a fight. I myself think it is really close to the 35 agility enchant. Rawrs says it is 2-ce as good (i.e. 70 agility). I don't think so.
I think Rawr has problems counting the value of procs. I do believe them on strength, stamina, agility and all, but the procs just seem wrong.
One more thing Rawr is wrong on is expertise. It has only offensive value (as tank). It totally forgets that expertise will decrease the parry chance of a boss which will not let him get haste buff that much. Some raw calculations were done and 1 expertise is about 1/3 of the mitigation value 1 agility has (different for each boss though).

And Aldhissla, yes I meant overall score.

Astrylian has addressed the expertise in the bear model issue before (I was the one pestering him about it). He said he needed a detailed model of how it affects mitigation before he can plug it in. There was also some debate about how easily it is modeled since it doesn't apply to some bosses: The Druid Wiki Rawr discussion Is the Bear model valuing expertise correctly?

I think modeling it situationally (with a checkbox) would be fine. While it's very hard to make perfect, you can make some very good basic assumptions about what it can and can't do with just a few variables.
At best, parry haste is going to increase the bosses's overall attacks by 15% (base parry chance) * 30% (average hasted attack speed) = 4.5%. Each % of expertise reduction reduces that by .3%. That's the absolute best case for the extra damage from parry haste, no matter what. The variables that can modify this are:
base parry chance
is parry-hasteable
damage per swing
swing timer
length of the fight

From those and the information from the character sheet we can determine how many more swings we'll get from a boss and how much they'll do. From that, we can determine how much damage is mitigated in a given period, which can be simply output as a value. If you let the user input how much damage as a percentage is the base melee damage, you can then determine the overall value of expertise as a mitigation tool for that fight.

I think that's about the best you're going to be able to do. Have it optional, have it user-entered, and have it be situational based on the fight. But that should at least give good estimates as to how valuable it is relative to the rest of the stats.

If there is an internal cooldown for mongoose it's particularly small. I've had it refresh itself repeatedly when swiping multiple mobs.

From memory, the proc chances of Beserking & Mongoose are based on your unmodified attack speed. So in kitty, 1 proc per minute will mean 1 in 60 attacks will proc (1sec attack speed). 20% haste from Windfury brings your AP speed down to .8 secs meaning you do 75 white attacks instead of 60 which on white attacks alone will take you up to 1.25 procs/minute on average.

So haste has quite a large affect on mongoose & beserking because it can greatly increase the proc rate due to the raw increase in number of attacks.

To start with - both enchants do not have an internal cooldown. But Rawr's handling of procs is still not very useful, in my opinion. [Romulo's Poison Vial]'s proc was calculated as "xx Weapon Damage", for example. Furthermore, the [Dragonspine Trophy] was granting static haste in Rawr's calculations instead of procing.

I gathered some data for berserking in the last weeks. Today, I tried berserking with windfury with the same circumstances at the dummys. It was the worst try ever. I know, 40 minutes aren't long enough to get very reliable data but the worst try out of ~10 ... It should have been at least one of the best if haste would have such a great influence

I think, berserking has a common ppm-mechanic, which means: The chance is about x,x procs per minute, calculated by the current attack speed. So - as ridiculous as it seems - berserking (more general: ppm procs) becomes worse with more haste (at least "haste" from buffs ... I don't know it for "real" haste rating) for ferals.

I will try on it the next days/weeks but I do not thinkt that the data will change a lot

That is particularly the case when our Kitty gear has recieved such a big armor buff with the patch. Even with the -5% armor, we still have much more Armor than we did pre-patch.

This has removed any hesistation I had in getting the enchant (other than the cost!)