No, what I meant is, the amount of armor you get going up one entire tier seemed a little lackluster. Defender's Code (post-3.0.8, i.e. 850 total armor) alone gives more of an armor boost than going from 5t7.10 to 5t7.25 plus boots/belts/bracers for good measure, at the sacrifice of one trinket slot.
This is an issue (if it can be called that, may turn out balanced after all) with how armor maps to ilvl in general, not a druid itemization issue.
Edit: Also to clarify, it was in reference to Valorous vs Heroes, not the Reconcilation headpiece vs t7.25 resto headpiece.
T7.10 to T7.25 is not going up a tier. The 10 and 25 man versions of gear are meant to be parallel gear advancements. You're not expected to treat going from T7.10->T7.25 as an "gear upgrade." You're not meant to progress from 10 mans to 25s. Instead, the size, composition, and commitment of your guild will determine whether you experience 10 or 25 man content.
25's are there as bonus, and you get some bonus stats for it... but you should be able to go into a 25 man zone in 10 man gear and remain viable. Additionally, you should be able to go from T7.10 into a 25 man T8 instance and be viable.
Actually it is going up a tier. T7.10 is Ilevel 200, T7.25 is Ilevel 213. T8.10 will most likely be 213, and T8.25 226, just like TBC went from T4 (120) -> T5 (133) -> T6(146).
Additionally, you should be able to go from T7.10 into a 25 man T8 instance and be viable.
Sure, if you like having 13% less stats. You've completely missed the posts about gear scaling. I'm sure there are people out there who could/would, unless Ulduar is tuned like M'uru from the get-go, but the difference in gear power is there, and it's real.
To be fair, I originally thought that this was an oddity with just the tier pieces in terms of armor allocation. (i.e. perhaps t8.10 would have the same ilvl as t7.25 but have more armor) However this isn't the case - compare armor values of non-tier items of the same slot/armor proficiency; the values are identical.
The armor nerf is bad, no doubt about that. Personally I'm losing almost 7500 armor. But in the long-run I agree its a good thing because it opens up more gearing options for ferals, which is always a good thing.
I'm more concerned about the mangle "fix" if anything. 16% less damage on mangle means significantly less threat as well. Mangle was pretty much our bread and butter threat move (shield slam for druids) and considering when they did their original threat passes, it was balanced with the bug mechanic in the tests.
I copied my character 'Longhorn' from daggerspine (if any of you are curious about the armor nerf numbers I quoted) over to the PTR, but it seems they're having some issues getting characters copied over correctly. Hopefully they're in a workable state by this weekend so we can do some testing before the ball really drops and this becomes the nerf similar to the way bears were nerfed shortly after BC was released.
Maul was and is our bread and butter threat move. Mangle was 15% of our total threat, losing 16% of that means we lose a grand total of 2.5% threat, and I think we can definitely survive that 150ish TPS loss.
The armor nerf is bad, no doubt about that. Personally I'm losing almost 7500 armor. But in the long-run I agree its a good thing because it opens up more gearing options for ferals, which is always a good thing.
I don't see how you can possibly lose that much armor. Going by the Rawr armor model (haven't been able to get my char to PTR yet to check in-game) I'm loosing 1500 armor. That's with the best armor trinkets, rings, neck and cloak in game, but no armor weapon (no luck with drops on that). With best possible gear, it should be in the lines of 4k armor lost.
I don't see how you can possibly lose that much armor. Going by the Rawr armor model (haven't been able to get my char to PTR yet to check in-game) I'm loosing 1500 armor. That's with the best armor trinkets, rings, neck and cloak in game, but no armor weapon (no luck with drops on that). With best possible gear, it should be in the lines of 4k armor lost.
If you have all 25-man leather pieces (that are getting buffed), you lose less armour than if you have 10-man leather and the 25-man rings/trinkets/weapons/backs/necks.
Rawr also multiplies the bonus armor on backs, so you'll lose a bit more than it says you will.
If Thick Hide and the Meta work like Bear Armor and the new SotF change, my numbers have me at a 1.1k armor buff in current gear. If Thick Hide + Meta work on all armor then it's even a greater buff for me.
If you have the best gear possible, your armor will still be higher than most people who are getting it buffed, and overall we'll be able to boost our avoidance further since we won't have to worry about there being bonus armor as much. I still do believe that armor rings/trinkets will be the best upgrades for us as they seem to have the most druid-tank stats associated with them as well, sadly.
There are a pair of rings with dodge, without defense rating, that have armor - one from Heroic DtK/Tharon'ja, and the other being a Sapph25 drop.
Despite the changes, armor remains a very solid stat for all tanking classes. Remember where gear and pretty much everything else doubled, the armor cap went up by only ~50%. In other words, assuming identical itemization (but scaled up) between a TBC and a WotLK armor ring, the WotLK item provides more mitigation at 80 than the TBC item does at 70 for the same fraction of item budget.
With the armor change, armor jewelry are no longer really a druid/DK priority but a decent alternative itemization pathway for all tanks; of course, the lack of defense on the two rings above make them no-brainer druid items regardless.
Edit: Fixed drop location, was thinking of something else.
If Thick Hide and the Meta work like Bear Armor and the new SotF change, my numbers have me at a 1.1k armor buff in current gear. If Thick Hide + Meta work on all armor then it's even a greater buff for me.
Thick Hide will only work on base armour (like bearform bonus), but the Meta gem works on all armour from any sources including bonus armour and will be the only modifier improving bonus armour after the change (cf. one of Ghostcrawler's posts, I think it was in the Upcoming Feral Changes III thread).
I don't see how you can possibly lose that much armor. Going by the Rawr armor model (haven't been able to get my char to PTR yet to check in-game) I'm loosing 1500 armor. That's with the best armor trinkets, rings, neck and cloak in game, but no armor weapon (no luck with drops on that). With best possible gear, it should be in the lines of 4k armor lost.
All these Talk about the Armor nerf has anyone really considered the overall before saying the nerf is that bad.?
Yes u lose all armor bonus from ring trinket neck back weapon. That in math is losing 3.7 per armor per item in that slot. however u gain a 66% on overal armor from leather slots. in one word Yes u lose armor if u banked all your armor on those item slots. but in the long run the higher ilevel items u get u get more armor, making the nerf not really a nerf in terms of scaling. Armor will be scaled more gradually however the short run yes it will make us more vunerable to hits but heh when u crunch the numbers u'll still see that in a healers point of view we are still alot easier to heal due to our 7k more hp.
In raid situations where u get hit for 7-8k but u get healed for 10k+ so what's another 1k of dmg? migitation is a good trade off but now it gives us more chance to concentrate on dodge and defence. On the compairison with war/dk/pally we are still on the good side for healer reaction times. but yes i do agree the nerf on this is kinda steep.
On the 16% mangle nerf, personally i feel that we getting hit with so many nerfs in 1 patch is BS but. well 16% is nothing compaired to the threat we are generating on a single target and won't make a difference but i feel we are lacking behind in terms of dmg a PROT warrior can do 1.6k DPS while tanking but we are stuck somewhere from 1.3k-1.55k DPS which is is BS imo why should we be the lower end of the spectrum.
I personally feel they need to buff our swipe dmg to make-up for our only single AoE tanking ability. From tanking so long i still think that it is unfair to us that we need to swipe for atleast 3 times before AoE and start when other tanks Aoe can start almost right off the bat. 3 times make 4.5 secs from gcd.
Ok, I need suggestion on how to heal Loatheb post 3.08 with 6 seconds WG.
I run with 2 druid healers in Naxx 10 man. Our general healing strategy is to spot heal tank, and spam WG (to use its initial burst portion) in each of our group.
I think by having a 6 secs WG, the fights will shift largely to DPS-er on their ablity to zerg down Loatheb before things get hairy.
One way I could think of, is to maintain full 3 stacks of lifebloom on each party member and a reju. But doing so, means oom is near and I will not be able to help DPS during the 17seconds silence.
6 seconds nerf to COH does not have the same effect though, as the one off healing of COH + POM should cover the 17seconds of silence on raid damage.
Good job Blizzard in screwing us, trees, once more. First bloom nerf, then WG nerf, god know whats next.
Don't do the BlizzardQQ crap here, Loatheb is a naturally horrible tree fight though so normally you would be just spamming Starfire or something during it...
If you have 2 Druid healers in Naxx[10] then I suggest you organize your healing so one of you does WG on the melee group, the other on the caster group.
One can pre-arrange a HT on the MT, other can RG two people who are lowest, and you both can preload some LBs up on people for generic damage.
How a 6 second cooldown on WG can effect Loatheb 10man with 2 Resto Druids... I have no idea.
but i feel we are lacking behind in terms of dmg a PROT warrior can do 1.6k DPS while tanking but we are stuck somewhere from 1.3k-1.55k DPS which is is BS imo why should we be the lower end of the spectrum.
I don't find this to be true. I'm doing more dmg as a bear even in tanking gear. In kitty gear we blow prot's dmg out of the water.
I personally feel they need to buff our swipe dmg to make-up for our only single AoE tanking ability. From tanking so long i still think that it is unfair to us that we need to swipe for atleast 3 times before AoE and start when other tanks Aoe can start almost right off the bat. 3 times make 4.5 secs from gcd.
This makes me scratch my hand as well. I'm not having problems tanking trash :o
You have enough time to put Rejuvenation on everyone in the raid and make sure lifebloom is stacked on the MT while the aura is up. When the aura wears off, you'll get a rejuv tick on everyone and a few LB ticks on the tank. On top of that, you can start casting a big heal on someone when the aura is about to wear off, then swiftmend someone else.
I don't find this to be true. I'm doing more dmg as a bear even in tanking gear. In kitty gear we blow prot's dmg out of the water.
Originally Posted by kenderpl
This makes me scratch my hand as well. I'm not having problems tanking trash :o
I'm going to have to agree with both of these points. In heroics I do somewhere around 2k dps in tanking gear and generally have no problems with threat. Single target, I pulled close to 2500 dps if I remember correctly on Patchwerk in tanking gear. I did VoA 25 today and our prot pally, in decent tanking gear, was pulling around 1k dps and I usually see them around 1200 but never much higher. So I would say that our damage will still be superior to other tanks and our AoE threat generation will remain adequate.
In raid situations where u get hit for 7-8k but u get healed for 10k+ so what's another 1k of dmg?
I am not quite sure if tanks around the world would be glad if they would receive more damage, just because "well, your healers are overhealing anywhy". And as far as I know you sometimes get hit for far more than 7k.
migitation is a good trade off but now it gives us more chance to concentrate on dodge and defence.
Really? How? Because if you change your rings, weapons, necks and trinkets for dodge/defence, you loose another 1000 to 3000 armor before getting any life or dodge %.
I don't find this to be true. I'm doing more dmg as a bear even in tanking gear. In kitty gear we blow prot's dmg out of the water.
I beg to differ running meters, we out TPS in short fights on a single target but compare with dk/war we are sub par in dps in short fights. my rotation for unlimited rage fights is simply maul>mangle>laceratex2>maul>mangle>laceratex2 maul>lacerate>swiperince repeat refresh lacerate if this doesn't give max tps/dps then i don't know what i'm doing wrong cos i have never clocked more then 1.8k DPS
Originally Posted by kenderpl
[/b]This makes me scratch my hand as well. I'm not having problems tanking trash :o
i never said that there are problem with tanking trash i just feel it is unfair that we can't open up like all the other AoE tank classes. it takes us more time to build agro with swipe it takes away our GCD and in turn we can't mangle if we want to build rage faster. I personally feel that doing 1 single swipe and tab target maul mangle/lacerate builds more TPS then swipe. I'm not saying that we can't AoE tank i'm just saying we are lacking by alot when blizzard boast we are on par.
i never said that there are problem with tanking trash i just feel it is unfair that we can't open up like all the other AoE tank classes. it takes us more time to build agro with swipe it takes away our GCD and in turn we can't mangle if we want to build rage faster. I personally feel that doing 1 single swipe and tab target maul mangle/lacerate builds more TPS then swipe. I'm not saying that we can't AoE tank i'm just saying we are lacking by alot when blizzard boast we are on par.
In 4-5 mobs pull, what you could do is mark skull, ask dps to zerg skull dead than AOE. By the time skull is dead, you should have enough threat on the rest for full out AOE to go.
I agree, we can't beat avenger shield+consecrate, or death grip + DnD combo in terms of burst AOE threat. But thats just mechanic of the different tank.
In 4-5 mobs pull, what you could do is mark skull, ask dps to zerg skull dead than AOE. By the time skull is dead, you should have enough threat on the rest for full out AOE to go.
I agree, we can't beat avenger shield+consecrate, or death grip + DnD combo in terms of burst AOE threat. But thats just mechanic of the different tank.
Trying to prevent DPS from aoeing when they see "ooh, loads of enemies wheee" can be hard. While that is not strictly speaking a problem with the tank, it is a problem that the tank will have to deal with. Personally, I let DPS die (not popular in VH).
My main problem currently is a knockback-addicted Balance druid that open up too fast (i.e. first spell is knockback before I can get the mobs to a wall) combined with a crit-happy mage that opens up with Fire Pillar of Crittiness - I think trying to get the DPS to use 1-2 single target spells before unloading aoes may be possible.
However, if aoe-tanking is the best way to deal with content then aoe-tanking is what will be used - the question is how viable we'll be in that particular tanking role - I'm hoping for some sort of aoe-bleed effect, similar to Lacerate but with the threat component in the dot rather than frontloaded in order to keep Swipe as-is. We'll see.
Originally Posted by Wraithlin
Do your hospitals have unusually narrow doorways?
If not how do "lifestyle choices" explain the waiting time statistics?
I'm not there to deal with bad behaviour on DPS. I'm there to tank stuff.
I'll happily let morons die if they can't attack the right target or insist on using a knockback spell before I've even touched a mob. I tend to think of it as 'education'.
Think of it as self-protection. If the morons really are that persistent and are blaming you, it's not a group you'd want to run with anyway. I do give PUGs (if I ever run them) a fair warning that I do not have a 'Taunt' button on my action bar. (Which, naturally, is entirely true.)
@ Evengelion - I'm not quite sure how you're seeing such incredibly low TPS and DPS numbers. Our No.1 DPS tends to be one of the Feral druids (in tank spec...) I'd take it that means the rest of the DPS needs to try harder, but 2.5k-3k DPS shouldn't be too hard on a forgiving boss (in catform). You did miss a few talents which up the DPS though.
Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.
Primal fury doesn't give energy on crits, it gives extra combo points for crits that would generate points. Since swipe won't generate CPs, we won't get anything when it crits (except possibly extra OOC procs? I forget how this works).
They've changed OoC, it now only procs of singe-target spells and attacks so I guess it will not proc off Swipe - Cat.
12/12/08, 8:36 PM
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