I run with 2 druid healers in Naxx 10 man. Our general healing strategy is to spot heal tank, and spam WG (to use its initial burst portion) in each of our group.
I think Loatheb is a great fight for us, and I already don't spam WG. What I do is set up 3 separate lifeblooms that are timed to bloom during the healing period, put a rejuv on someone thats a bit lower on health, and time a big HT to go off right as the healing period starts. Right after my HT goes off, I WG once and swiftmend that rejuv.
They've changed OoC, it now only procs of singe-target spells and attacks so I guess it will not proc off Swipe - Cat.
I was under the impression that OoC will not proc from Swipe (Cat) because OoC only procs from spells and auto-attacks, not melee abilities.
As well, the change was to lower the proc chance on AOE abilities, not eliminate it completely. You can still get guaranteed OoC procs when AOEing with Hurricane, it just takes more mobs.
Maul was and is our bread and butter threat move. Mangle was 15% of our total threat, losing 16% of that means we lose a grand total of 2.5% threat, and I think we can definitely survive that 150ish TPS loss.
I'm more concerned with the DPS loss but I suppose we were a fair whack out of line with other tanks.
I'm glad we've not seen Defender's Code drop yet, I was in two minds whether to take it and the closer we get to the patch day the less reason I have.
Well, armor is still good so you shouldn't blow off the Code completely - I don't think there are other tanks that want it that much either (or am I wrong?). From the wording of the change, I guess other armor-increasing talents and abilities won't multiply the non-armor slot ac values either.
The 3K on-use effect of the Offering will get less useful since Survival Instincts won't stack with it anymore (I guess that's one thing the change is meant to prevent).
Regarding DPS in Heroics - I almost exclusively run with RL friends, so the amount of feedback I can give them is limited.
Originally Posted by Wraithlin
Do your hospitals have unusually narrow doorways?
If not how do "lifestyle choices" explain the waiting time statistics?
When a Moonkin is out of mana, his options are very limited, and none are very good. It will happen sometimes due to mana drains or just unexpected fight dynamics.
As an approximation, an Oom Moonkin will have enough MP5 to maintain Insect Swarm, throw an occasional SF, and melee. In live, the Moonkin may have a choice of a weapon with roughly 500 spellpower (including enchant), and 75 DPS, or a weapon with zero spellpower and roughly 185 DPS (after adjustments for FAP).
500 spellpower adds about 42 DPS to glyphed Insect Swarm.
A switch to the melee weapon loses the spellpower, but adds 110 DPS (before dodge, glancing blows, armor, crits, ...).
The switch probably ends up costing some mana regen, so it is roughly a break-even proposition.
In the patch, it appears that Moonkin get to double-dip from high-weapon DPS. They get the weapon DPS (not the 55 DPS from a feral white attack), plus bonus FAP:
which means that the melee weapon's 110 extra DPS turns into 220 extra DPS in the Moonkin's hand. At that point, is likely that the weapon switch is a net win.
To a Moonkin, that fishing pole is a 318 DPS weapon. 318 DPS is a terrible number at 80, but it is better than nothing.
Are you sure that will be the case?
It is just giving a point of information to my knowledge, it is not a bonus else it would retain its "Equip: Increases attack power..."
They've changed OoC, it now only procs of singe-target spells and attacks so I guess it will not proc off Swipe - Cat.
No, it still procs off of AoE. What only procs off of single target spells is Moonkin Form mana return. You just have a lower chance to proc OoC off of AoE spells.
Druid engineers can now learn melee or boomkin goggles. Resto druids are still **** outta luck.
Engineering gloves enchant ("tinker") with on-use Haste is now slightly better, but still not as much dps as the equivalent enchant. Possibly better for pvp assuming some creative macro-ing.
Now the real question is of course why any druid would want to be an engineer. *slinks back into corner*
Are you sure that will be the case?
It is just giving a point of information to my knowledge, it is not a bonus else it would retain its "Equip: Increases attack power..."
I'm not on the PTR, so I'm not sure. Since the only thing AP does for a moonkin is to boost white damage, it seems strange to mention Moonkin in the tooltip if there is no increase to white damage.
As far as I know it is just so Druids do not get 'lost' after being used to seeing FAP on all their items and thinking this as a nerf because all their FAP is gone.
Moonkins might get a bonus to their melee AP that they did not have before due to FAP getting derived from weapon dps now (and caster weapons not having any FAP before), but I really doubt Blizzard is much concerned with the "risk" of owls suddenly killing people in melee.
I have been concerned about the viability of cat swipe for a while. I wanted to try to compare maul/swipe to swipespam with cat, because we can have quite a lot of rage from crits in bear form, whereas cat form doesn't give any energy on crits. Assuming 500 base damage in cat (on a 1 second attack speed), and 1500 base damage in bear (on a 2,5 second attack speed). I am not going to consider this with savage fury up, and there will be no mangle/bleed on the target. I am also going from my own bear spec, and i am not using berserk.
My calculations for cat swipe are as follows:
500 x 2,6 = 1300 damage
Over 10 seconds you have 200 energy to spend. That is 5 mangles or 4,44 swipes, and always 10 normal swings for 500 damage.
One mob swipe: 10772 damage over 10 seconds (really 10200) - 1077,2 DPS
Two mob swipe: 16544 damage over 10 seconds (really 15400) - 1654,4 DPS
Three mob swipe: 22316 damage over 10 seconds (really 20600) - 2231,6 DPS
If i remember correctly, i saw my bear swipe critting for 845 in last nights 10 man Naxx. Lets be really generous and say that my noncrit swipe on my own will be 350. Maul will be hitting for 1800 with Savage Fury.
Over 10 seconds i will be able to do 6 swipes and 4 mauls hitting two targets:
6 x 350 x 2 mobs + 4 x 1800 x 2 mobs = 16500 damage or 1650 DPS.
With three targets:
6 x 350 x 3 mobs + 4 x 1800 x 2 mobs = 20700 damage or 2070 DPS.
With four targets:
6 x 350 x 4 mobs + 4 x 1800 x 2 mobs = 22800 damage or 2280 DPS.
Four target kitty swipe will do 2808,8 DPS.
With these calculations and considerations, i have answered my own question. With two mobs, swipe cat and swipe/maul is comparable, but we havent even considered savage roar. We havent added a bleed or mangle/trauma effect to the two other targets, but i think that the 40% more AP from savage roar is comparable to 50% more damage on mauls.
However, then i started considering a full minute fight, because bear is not limited by energy, and will (in our case) have enough rage to keep swiping and mauling, while cat will have to wait for energy to regen.
Three targets
Bear:
24 mauls each minute
40 swipes each minute
40 x 350 x 3 mobs + 24 x 1800 x 2 mobs = 128400 damage or 2140 DPS
Cat:
700 energy to spend over a minute
15 swipes
15 x 1300 x 3 + 60 x 500 = 88500 damage or 1475 DPS
Adding savage roar (which will increase my base damage by about 162), and assuming that i have it up before we start (and that it lasts for a full minute), my swipe in cat will go up to 1723 damage, or 77554 damage or 1792,25 DPS (counting in base melee damage).
Did i go wrong somewhere, or is there really a point where bear maul/swipe is better for longer fights, assuming we can have unlimited rage and that our three targets dont start dying along the way?
Assumptions that we might want to add in aswell:
Bear:
Mangle/bleed on main maul target
Reapplying the above
Berserk mangle/maul vs. swipe/maul
Can we, in most cases, keep our rage high enough through crits to always maul/swipe?
Cat:
Savage roar and reapplication
How long does a fight have to be before bear becomes better than cat?
In your one minute cat swipe calculations did you include KotJ and Tiger's Fury?
So your energy available to use (considering start of a pull)
100 (Base Energy) + 600 (Energy Regained in a Minute) + 120 (Energy Gained from 2 uses of Tiger's Fury)
or a total of 820 Energy.
This allows for 16 cat swipes.
Using the same math as the above
16 * 1723 (swipe damage) * 3 (targets) + 60 (number of white hits) * 662 (white hit damage) = 122424 damage in a minute, or 2040.4 DPS.
This currently leaves out Tiger's Fury damage bonus, and reapplication of SR in the middle of the fight. This also assumes no crits, which on 3 targets, even with a low kitty crit chance we can pretty much guess that one will be a crit.
This also leaves out OoC procs, which will very likely result in a net gain of Kitty Swipes.
With this kind of math, (entirely napkin and not reliable at all) I'm very willing to give Kitty Swipe a good chance of being very useful on any encounter with 3 or more mobs. And if I'm willing to pop berserk to go with it, Kitty Swipe will be very very competitive with, and I'll be glad for reduced threat in kitty form.
... total of 820 Energy. This allows for 16 cat swipes.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the patch notes stated a 50 energy cost and current talents would affect it. Ferocity would make that 45, or 18 swipes (also, don't forget +30% swipe mod).
With berserk it should be pretty spamable.
What am I missing here. If you have 30000 maximum health and pop SI at any time, you gain 10000 HP for 20 seconds (old). Now if you have 30000 maximum health, and pop SI when you're at 10000 HP and in threat of dieing... you gain 3000 HP(new?).
How exactly is this a buff?
You gain the Maximum Health. So depending on the encounter and buffs, for instance soloing my cat form hp is around 18k i pop this at 1k hp i will gain 5400 hp, where as in a raid situation with raid buffs i have 25k hp in cat so poping this would yield 7500 additional hp, as opposed to the old style that did not account your current max and scaled off the unbuffed max. moar hp+new swipe= <3
Originally Posted by Aym
I have been concerned about the viability of cat swipe for a while. I wanted to try to compare maul/swipe to swipespam with cat, because we can have quite a lot of rage from crits in bear form, whereas cat form doesn't give any energy on crits.
Clarification please. I thought that crits have a chance to yield aditional combo points... so this being an energy using ability i cannot see blizzard allowing 4 crits off a mob of 8 monsters yielding more then one cp each time..... but will critical strikes yield any cp from this at all
@ Evengelion - I'm not quite sure how you're seeing such incredibly low TPS and DPS numbers. Our No.1 DPS tends to be one of the Feral druids (in tank spec...) I'd take it that means the rest of the DPS needs to try harder, but 2.5k-3k DPS shouldn't be too hard on a forgiving boss (in catform). You did miss a few talents which up the DPS though.
Please read my Post. my Post is on Tanking(Bear) not Cat form DPS/TPS and it is on Single Target DPS/TPS Not Overall TPS/DPS. If u take into account that u have mangle Glyph and u are swiping you'll definately be having higher overall DPS and stay on top of some peoples charts. However my Numbers are based on a Warrior / Pld / DK. I've run 5mans and 10man naxx with similar geared people and the numbers just don't add up. The DPS used to put us at Top Burst TPS/DPS tanking but now we are sub par. Warrior can open up with Sheild slam doing more TPS/DPS then a druid with Maul/mangle combo. i'm not saying we are bad i'm just saying we are at the end of the spectrum at an area in which we are supposed to excel in regards to other areas in which we lack. All these "nerfs" are just making druid tanks less attractive then having a warrior / DK i also feel plds are also lacking behind. It is as if blizzard is making us look bad.
With the armor component we are no longer the top Pure migitation tank neither are we the top TPS class, we don't have parry/block and due to DR stacking pure dodge is not the way to go as well. In everyway i see it we ONLY excel in 1 thing we are meat shield's just pure HP tank but the down side is that being a meat sheild is also being a mana sponge.
Swipe (Cat) will not generate any combo points regardless of talents.
QQ oh well it will either be op or will bomb and get a buff or a nerf in next patch. I hope they nerf the energy req so we can be as viable aoe as some of the other classes, our raids smoke mobs to quickly for any real impressive numbers on trash. I've seen alot of ferals in the 4k+ range on bosses but i havn't seen any from trash or an overall, any 4k+ ferals out there seeing 3-4k dps on trash pre patch?
Regarding to the Mangle nerf, has anyone done calculations for the TPS loss?
"Druids, they are so stupid they can tank better than warriors, out damage rogues, and nuke as well as mages. On top of that they can turn into a mutated seal."
According to MMO Champion, polearms will be trainable for Druids. I assume [Journey's End] will still be the choice for Druid DPS, but that opens up a lot of new options along the way.
This will, I assume, mean that there is one druid/hunter itemized polearm in each tier, and so long to staves (since they would be the same, except that they couldn't be used effectively by warriors/pallies/DKs). Of course, that also means we're now rolling against the above classes for DPS weapons, which I suspect will be a bit of a shock to some tanks that have had their DPS weapons defaulted to them for years now.
Ja7us, while 25 man raiders will prefer [Journey's End], for 10 man raiders, [Black Ice] looks like a very viable competitor with [Staff of the Plaguehound]. It trades off (after SotF and BoK) 58 AP, 59 Expertise Rating (and a boatload of stamina) in return for 72 Hit Rating, 58 Haste Rating, and 0.5% crit, which looks like a quite good upgrade for catform as we currently seem to have, in general, a harder time getting Hit rating than Expertise rating.
Last edited by Deliverance : 12/16/08 at 10:15 AM.
Reason: Fixed broken item link
According to MMO-champion, the EU PTR patch notes are reporting that druids are getting polearms? Either the developers actually listened, or it's a typo. It's not showing up in the US PTR patch notes, but sometimes the US is a little slower, especially during Tuesday maintenance days...
12/15/08, 6:38 AM
Similar Threads
