Feral Trinkets

killets · 12/16/08, 8:40 PM

I've been playing with these numbers a lot, esp since Rawr doesn't really include any good values for them (esp DPS trinkets). I've half-heartedly attempted to rank them here (the ranking isn't exactly precise for every build, but it should make sense) with approximate values you can use to plug into Rawr v2.1.4, just in case you're interested in modeling them there. I've decided to make this post here b/c I've felt that it could save some legwork for looking up PPM and crunching numbers for the various trinkets out there.

Note, that for Darkmoon Card: Greatness, I'm going to assume that the proc will always proc additional agility, based on the fact that almost all Druid Feral Gear seems to be itemized in such a way that you'd never have more Strength than Agility.

I also realize that a lot of this has been discussed in the feral questions thread, but it felt like a good idea to separate this out, in hopes of making the data more accessible, and given the precedent set by the other Resto Druid Trinket thread.

Feral DPS

The proc per minute calculations are not definitive, but based on various comments and threads I've read regarding them. Feel free to suggest better PPM values, if you feel mine are inaccurate for cat-druids.

In 3.1, these are the preliminary numbers I'm now getting:

[Darkmoon Card: Greatness] - Darkmoon Faire - Agi (approx 180agi, based on 1.2ppm) (209.94)
[Darkmoon Card: Greatness] - Darkmoon Faire - Str (approx 90agi, 90str, based on 1.2ppm) (205.00)
[Grim Toll] - Heroic Naxx - (approx 83 hit rating, 122.3 armor pen rating, based on 1.2ppm) (179.19)
[Fury of the Five Flights] - Heroic Sarth - (approx 320 ap) (143.65)
[Extract of Necromantic Power] - (142.54)
[Mirror of Truth] - 10man Badges - (approx 84 crit rating, 166.7ap, based on 1ppm) (140.24)
[Meteorite Whetstone] - Heroic Pinnacle - (approx 74 crit rating, 88.8 haste rating, based on 1.2ppm) (129.84)
[Bandit's Insignia] - Heroic Sapphiron - (190ap, but... i didn't know how to model the additional 35 extra dps from the proc, so for Rawr purposes, it looked like putting a value of 250ap approximated that 35dps boost, based on ~4500dps from Rawr)
[Incisor Fragment] - (109.80)
[Sphere of Red Dragon's Blood] - Heroic Nexus - (approx 55 hit rating, 111.67 attack power) (94.67)
[Mark of Norgannon] - Heroic Malygos - (69 expertise, 81.83 haste) (91.49)

I don't believe any other trinkets are terribly worth noting, since everyone should be able to get at least a Mirror of Truth + one of the heroic trinket drops at a minimum. Items like Loatheb Shadow could possibly be undervalued to the best players, b/c they would have some awareness in saving it for say, a Grim Toll Proc, or using it right before a berserk.

Feral Tanking

These rankings are even more subjective than the DPS trinkets due to the nature of tanking and gearing for certain situations. I'm mostly basing this off Rawr's "Overall" Ratings. Look at this rather like a list instead of a ranking.

Also, with 3.0.8 coming sooner rather than later, I'm using the 3.0.4 armor calculation from Rawr as a basis.
I haven't changed this list for 3.1.

[Darkmoon Card: Greatness] - Darkmoon Faire - Agi (approx 180agi, based on 1.2ppm)
[Figurine - Monarch Crab] - Jewelcrafting BoP - (63stam + 2 sockets + 50 dodge rating)
[Defender's Code] - Heroic Maexxna - (850 armor, 75.83 dodge rating)
[Essence of Gossamer] - Heroic Azjol Nerub - (111 stam + ablative proc)
[Indestructible Alchemist's Stone] - Alchemy BoP - (50 dodge rating, 75 stam, Potion Effect)
[Figurine - Ruby Hare] - Jewelcrafting BoP - (62stam + 2 sockets)
[Darkmoon Card: Greatness] - Darkmoon Faire - Str (approx 90agi, 90str, based on 1.2ppm)
[Sonic Booster] - Engineering BoP - (81 stam)
[Valor Medal of the First War] - 10man badges - (139.83 dodge rating)
[Offering of Sacrifice] - Heroic Gundrak - (550 armor)

Just a FYI for those who are thinking about stacking both Darkmoon Cards, they do share the same internal cooldown, so much of the effect is lost. If anything, a 2nd Darkmoon Trinket would probably only increase the PPM to maybe 1.33ppm if you're lucky, but it would still place the trinket below [Loatheb's Shadow] and [Sphere of Red Dragon's Blood]

Tuftears · 12/16/08, 9:23 PM

Aren't you leaving off [Valor Medal of the First War] with respect to feral tanking? 40 badges.

killets · 12/16/08, 10:11 PM

Yes. I'll add that right now.

Pzychotix · 12/16/08, 11:58 PM

Darkmoon Cards should be around +100 for the proc stat.

WotLK Rogue Gear Discussion

Rogues found it to be around a 45s ICD, and with a 35% proc rate, it's going to proc whenever it's up. In other words, it's going to average a 33% uptime, which gives +100 to the stat that it procs.

coldbear · 12/17/08, 3:53 PM

Think the list is missing [Commendation of Kael'thas]

3.8% +Dodge whenever you need it, whether you notice yourself needing it or not, cannot be denied.

Thinking I'm only dropping it for Essence of Gossamer, Defender's Code or the Greatness card. Strike the Essence, for a hard-hitting boss I'd say the Commendation wins. Counterarguments?

Smartiepants · 12/17/08, 4:12 PM

I would say that keeping commendation is a very reasonable choice considering the upcoming nerf to the usefulness of defender’s code.

kalbear · 12/17/08, 4:19 PM

I think that even with the nerf, I'd rather have 850 armor all the time and 11% dodge every 2 minutes on a hard-hitting boss than 57 stamina and 4% dodge every so often. I'd also rather have 2% dodge all the time with occasionally 4% dodge and more armor than Commendation.

If something like Brutallus comes up again - where you can regularly expect to be low health in significant amounts of the fight and the fight is largely physical - commendation may be useful. It's especially decent given the high stamina that bears already have; having the threshold for this triggering being close to 20k is good. But I don't think it beats current tanking trinkets. 57 stam is just not that good relative to the others.

killets · 12/17/08, 5:40 PM

Originally Posted by Pzychotix

Darkmoon Cards should be around +100 for the proc stat.

WotLK Rogue Gear Discussion

Rogues found it to be around a 45s ICD, and with a 35% proc rate, it's going to proc whenever it's up. In other words, it's going to average a 33% uptime, which gives +100 to the stat that it procs.

As far as I know, it cannot average 33% uptime, b/c doing so would imply that you could have it proc in less than 45 seconds, unless the game queues procs for as soon as the ICD is up.

At a 35% proc rate, you should see it proc, theoretically speaking, every 48 seconds or so, correct? Unless it can proc off a DoT tick or specials. But even if it could proc with specials, you're looking at probably 46.5 or so?

Either way, neither affect the fact that it's #1, it's just arguing minute details regarding proc rate.

Originally Posted by coldbear

Think the list is missing [Commendation of Kael'thas]

3.8% +Dodge whenever you need it, whether you notice yourself needing it or not, cannot be denied.

Thinking I'm only dropping it for Essence of Gossamer, Defender's Code or the Greatness card. Strike the Essence, for a hard-hitting boss I'd say the Commendation wins. Counterarguments?

I was honestly surprised that Defender's Code held up so well. The dodge rating is actually quite high, when averaged out over 2 min. So is the armor bonus from it. While it's not overpowered like before, it does impact survivability + mitigation.

As far as Commendation goes, how can you accurately model Commendation in Rawr? Just assume that you always have +152 dodge rating? Based on 57stam alone, it doesn't rank very high, when there are trinkets out there that have double that from a heroic instance. Mathematically speaking, assuming an unrealistically optimistic 33% uptime (assuming you were short healers allowing your health to fluctuate quite rapidly, I would still only assume maybe a 25% uptime at best, b/c you'll simply see long avoidance streaks on occasion, and it simply takes more than 1 sec on avg to drop a tank from high to near death health after that 30s ICD is over), you're only looking at 57stam + 50 dodge rating. Which is good, but not amazing, esp when compared to trinkets such as Alchemist's Stone, which already (at least according to Rawr), fall behind post-nerf Defender's Code + Essence of Gossamer.

Right now, I believe the hardest boss fight for us would be Sartharion 3, requiring the massive # of hit points after the 25% hp debuff to avoid dying to spikes in damage, especially given the split healing you would have between all tanks. I don't think it's fair to discount the stam bonus.

As for the proc, it's actually not that bad. This is also discounting say, the proc on Essence of Gossamer which when procs, would probably provide about 1.5-5% mitigation (including magic dmg mitigation, with probably a 15-20% uptime, depending on the # of mobs you're tanking, and how hard they're hitting). Remember that even 140 dmg off a 9000 damage breath is over 1.5% mitigation.

Again though, as I prefaced there, tanking trinkets are much more a subjective decision, and ultimately, min/maxing the tanking gearing, provided some minimum level of survivability always proves to be inconclusive (it's kind of hard to compare tank gearing successes by statistics between kills, esp when survivability is a metric that has real worth, yet will not appear on a WWS which only tracks mitigation and avoidance).

Mijae · 12/17/08, 6:30 PM

Originally Posted by killets

As far as Commendation goes, how can you accurately model Commendation in Rawr? Just assume that you always have +152 dodge rating? Based on 57stam alone, it doesn't rank very high, when there are trinkets out there that have double that from a heroic instance. Mathematically speaking, assuming an unrealistically optimistic 33% uptime (assuming you were short healers allowing your health to fluctuate quite rapidly, I would still only assume maybe a 25% uptime at best, b/c you'll simply see long avoidance streaks on occasion, and it simply takes more than 1 sec on avg to drop a tank from high to near death health after that 30s ICD is over), you're only looking at 57stam + 50 dodge rating. Which is good, but not amazing, esp when compared to trinkets such as Alchemist's Stone, which already (at least according to Rawr), fall behind post-nerf Defender's Code + Essence of Gossamer.

Right now, I believe the hardest boss fight for us would be Sartharion 3, requiring the massive # of hit points after the 25% hp debuff to avoid dying to spikes in damage, especially given the split healing you would have between all tanks. I don't think it's fair to discount the stam bonus.

As for the proc, it's actually not that bad. This is also discounting say, the proc on Essence of Gossamer which when procs, would probably provide about 1.5-5% mitigation (including magic dmg mitigation, with probably a 15-20% uptime, depending on the # of mobs you're tanking, and how hard they're hitting). Remember that even 140 dmg off a 9000 damage breath is over 1.5% mitigation.

Again though, as I prefaced there, tanking trinkets are much more a subjective decision, and ultimately, min/maxing the tanking gearing, provided some minimum level of survivability always proves to be inconclusive (it's kind of hard to compare tank gearing successes by statistics between kills, esp when survivability is a metric that has real worth, yet will not appear on a WWS which only tracks mitigation and avoidance).

Commendation really is subjective and difficult to model. It's one of those items you need to customize to an encounter. I wouldn't use it in a default set.

With good healers and just an average difficulty fight, it might never proc. 33% uptime is probably a good estimate for something like off-tanking on Patchwerk where the health fluctuation is large and consistent. However, for large and inconsistent bursts it could have even more value since it kicks in exactly when you need it rather than when the healing is easy.

killets · 12/17/08, 7:33 PM

Originally Posted by Mijae

Commendation really is subjective and difficult to model. It's one of those items you need to customize to an encounter. I wouldn't use it in a default set.

With good healers and just an average difficulty fight, it might never proc. 33% uptime is probably a good estimate for something like off-tanking on Patchwerk where the health fluctuation is large and consistent. However, for large and inconsistent bursts it could have even more value since it kicks in exactly when you need it rather than when the healing is easy.

Even if you were to look at it as automatic "oh-crap" button, you would think that something like [Defender's Code] would simply be better. Given that "oh-crap" situations should be rare, and not the norm, 152 dodge rating isn't THAT much if you're depending on it to save your life. It translates to only 3.86% dodge, in the rare moment that you face death. [Defender's Code], when used is 11.56% dodge, which is a slightly better "oh-crap" button, provided that it will only have half the uptime of [Commendation of Kael'thas].

You could probably achieve ~30% uptime for Commendation on Patchwerk, but for every other fight, you'd probably be looking at something much worse than 33% uptime.

My personal opinion on this trinket matter though, is that Commendation is really only good if you haven't gotten lucky with drops and are not one of the preferred professions. It might be better than Offering post-patch, but I'm not sure it will help survival more than most of the other available trinkets right now.

Tank Trinkets aside, I forgot to put Mark of Norgannon there. It's actually not THAT great a DPS trinket, as far as Rawr.Cat is concerned, but I suppose if you are severely under the expertise cap (it feels difficult to do these days, with the plethora of expertise on many pieces of druid leather), it wouldn't be that horrible.

ErrantSpark · 12/22/08, 6:06 AM

For DPS you're missing [Ashtongue Talisman of Equilibrium], with my DPS tests report anywhere between 50 - 60% uptime on the buff when using a mangle rotation, thus it should not be overlooked.

Duilliath · 12/22/08, 12:09 PM

That'd depend on your spec. If you're still running 2t6 and a Mangle spec, then yes, it's worthwhile. I ran with it for a while. But by the time you 'graduate' to a full on shred spec, with Mangle glyph, you just don't mangle often enough for it to be interesting.

Yaha · 12/22/08, 1:14 PM

Curious why you didn't include [Figurine - Emerald Boar] in your DPS list. Is the boar pet too unreliable?

Not sure if it was intentional but you didn't specify which gems you socketed for the Ruby Hare.

manapaws · 12/23/08, 9:09 AM

I'm trying to decide between the strength and agility version of the Greatness deck. I have all but 2 numbers. Rawr (and my class knowledge/intuition) tell me the strength version is currently better, but I'm assuming we'll reach a point in the next raid patch or two where agility overtakes strength. The bonus of the agility one is it could double as part of my stacked avoidance set if one becomes needed.

Just looking at Toskk's graph, it only takes about 14.5k ap for agility to be better than strength at my current crit chance; this doesn't sound unreasonable.

I guess, all said and done, by time we do reach this point there will probably be new trinkets dropping / available.

coldbear · 12/23/08, 1:56 PM

They're messing with the decks currently, so watch out. I have mine, completed recently (for ~4-5000g), and will be picking up the Str version for pvp/dps purposes - though I'm unsure if I'll use it all the time in pvp. If you tank very much at all it's a no-brainer, ofc, but there's a fun factor involved too. I would go for whatever is more fun for you right after the next patch, which should drop soon enough with it being on the PTR already for a week or so.

effekt125 · 12/23/08, 2:52 PM

Actually, from a pvp perspective, assuming you have the talent for 70% agility converted to heals, this would make the agility greatness card AMAZING. This is under the assumption that you're doing arena of course, particularly 2s. This also means more dodge in bear when being focused by melee. I see the agility version being a godsend, and I will personally be taking that one when the faire comes around in the next few weeks

I will say that I also the primary druid tank in my guild so this further supports the agility version. But as you stated, I can't see the agility version being too far behind the str version in the future, if not better

manapaws · 12/23/08, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by coldbear

They're messing with the decks currently,

Any idea if / what will change with them?

kalbear · 12/23/08, 6:10 PM

The [Darkmoon Card: Death] that you get from undeath cards will be converted from haste to crit rating. No word that I know on the other trinkets, but I suspect that Greatness will be nerfed a bit.

FuzzyBuddy · 12/23/08, 7:52 PM

deleted due to misinformation

kalbear · 12/23/08, 7:54 PM

The strength and agility version are actually the same trinket, it just chooses the stat that you have the most of to increase; with the current itemization most of us are going to be stuck with the agility version. = )

This isn't true. There is a Greatness deck that gives +90 strength and a greatness deck that gives +90 agility. The proc is the same on all decks, but each deck gives a different static bonus to a stat.

killets · 12/29/08, 7:36 PM

Originally Posted by Yaha

Curious why you didn't include [Figurine - Emerald Boar] in your DPS list. Is the boar pet too unreliable?

Not sure if it was intentional but you didn't specify which gems you socketed for the Ruby Hare.

On the basis of DPS, 84 ap + 32str, it doesn't even break top 10 for trinkets easily obtainable, according to Rawr. The boar on-use effect isn't easily quantifiable for comparison purposes, but from anecdotal evidence, most people despise the boar to some large degree.

As for the Ruby Hare, I forgot exactly what I used for ranking purposes, but the tanking list isn't really a good list for ranking purposes anyways. If you need avoidance, you obviously socket agi. If you need it for survival purposes, throwing in 2 stam gems makes the most sense.

Unfortunately, as of now, there is no shifting twilight opal, so those are your 2 best options in my mind. You could opt with the regal twilight opal (i think it's the regal.. the 8dodge/12stam), but either way, it wouldn't make a huge impact on the value of the trinket.

Cards · 12/30/08, 9:22 PM

Is there a case to be made for [Repelling Charge]? Rawr says it provides more passive mitigation * avoidance than [Defender's Code] postpatch, and it ranks [Valor Medal of the First War] only a little higher. I don't know if Rawr is overvaluing defense due to not knowing the DR on miss, but I don't have much miss atm so I don't think it'd be significant. I think once we hit T8/T9 level content druids will be balancing defense and dodge for DR reasons, as Rawr is already weighting defense fairly heavily (TankPoints ranks it about 75-80% as good as dodge rating point for point for me right now fully raid buffed).

SkunkApe · 01/02/09, 7:57 AM

Originally Posted by killets

On the basis of DPS, 84 ap + 32str, it doesn't even break top 10 for trinkets easily obtainable, according to Rawr. The boar on-use effect isn't easily quantifiable for comparison purposes, but from anecdotal evidence, most people despise the boar to some large degree.

It should be noted that since only JC'ers can make that trinket it would not be out of the question to assume that there would be 2 Bold Dragon's Eyes in it (27 str gems). Doing this would also activate the socket bonus of +12 AP as the JC BoP gems are prismatic. 96AP + 54 str is pretty solid and thats not even factoring in the on use effect. I'd say that would bump it up on your list considerably and def. worth mentioning to any Feral Druids considering Jewelcrafting as a profession.

• Polynices · 01/02/09, 12:01 PM

You can't count the Dragon's Eyes in the JC trinket because a JCing druid (or anyone else) will already have the maximum of 3 Dragon's Eyes in their gear.

You're comparing the Emerald Boar with normal gems to other trinkets in that slot but putting on the Boar doesn't let you slot more Dragon's Eyes, so they just shouldn't count in the comparison.

SkunkApe · 01/03/09, 5:57 AM

Originally Posted by Polynices

You can't count the Dragon's Eyes in the JC trinket because a JCing druid (or anyone else) will already have the maximum of 3 Dragon's Eyes in their gear.

You're comparing the Emerald Boar with normal gems to other trinkets in that slot but putting on the Boar doesn't let you slot more Dragon's Eyes, so they just shouldn't count in the comparison.

Why would we automatically assume they have the maximum of 3 Dragon's Eye in their gear already? The only people that can even use the trinket are Jewelcrafters. Therefore, there is no point in not comparing its best case usage against the other trinkets. It's silly to exclude it from the list on the basis of "you aren't going to be putting BoP gems in that because we already assumed you were using 3."

It may not be the best, but it deserves a mention for anyone thinking about Jewelcrafting considering how ridiculous easy they are to make.