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Old 12/16/08, 7:40 PM   #1
killets
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Tauren Druid
 
Blackrock
Feral Trinkets

I've been playing with these numbers a lot, esp since Rawr doesn't really include any good values for them (esp DPS trinkets). I've half-heartedly attempted to rank them here (the ranking isn't exactly precise for every build, but it should make sense) with approximate values you can use to plug into Rawr v2.1.4, just in case you're interested in modeling them there. I've decided to make this post here b/c I've felt that it could save some legwork for looking up PPM and crunching numbers for the various trinkets out there.

Note, that for Darkmoon Card: Greatness, I'm going to assume that the proc will always proc additional agility, based on the fact that almost all Druid Feral Gear seems to be itemized in such a way that you'd never have more Strength than Agility.

I also realize that a lot of this has been discussed in the feral questions thread, but it felt like a good idea to separate this out, in hopes of making the data more accessible, and given the precedent set by the other Resto Druid Trinket thread.

Feral DPS

The proc per minute calculations are not definitive, but based on various comments and threads I've read regarding them. Feel free to suggest better PPM values, if you feel mine are inaccurate for cat-druids.

In 3.1, these are the preliminary numbers I'm now getting:

[Darkmoon Card: Greatness] - Darkmoon Faire - Agi (approx 180agi, based on 1.2ppm) (209.94)
[Darkmoon Card: Greatness] - Darkmoon Faire - Str (approx 90agi, 90str, based on 1.2ppm) (205.00)
[Grim Toll] - Heroic Naxx - (approx 83 hit rating, 122.3 armor pen rating, based on 1.2ppm) (179.19)
[Fury of the Five Flights] - Heroic Sarth - (approx 320 ap) (143.65)
[Extract of Necromantic Power] - (142.54)
[Mirror of Truth] - 10man Badges - (approx 84 crit rating, 166.7ap, based on 1ppm) (140.24)
[Meteorite Whetstone] - Heroic Pinnacle - (approx 74 crit rating, 88.8 haste rating, based on 1.2ppm) (129.84)
[Bandit's Insignia] - Heroic Sapphiron - (190ap, but... i didn't know how to model the additional 35 extra dps from the proc, so for Rawr purposes, it looked like putting a value of 250ap approximated that 35dps boost, based on ~4500dps from Rawr)
[Incisor Fragment] - (109.80)
[Sphere of Red Dragon's Blood] - Heroic Nexus - (approx 55 hit rating, 111.67 attack power) (94.67)
[Mark of Norgannon] - Heroic Malygos - (69 expertise, 81.83 haste) (91.49)

I don't believe any other trinkets are terribly worth noting, since everyone should be able to get at least a Mirror of Truth + one of the heroic trinket drops at a minimum. Items like Loatheb Shadow could possibly be undervalued to the best players, b/c they would have some awareness in saving it for say, a Grim Toll Proc, or using it right before a berserk.

Feral Tanking

These rankings are even more subjective than the DPS trinkets due to the nature of tanking and gearing for certain situations. I'm mostly basing this off Rawr's "Overall" Ratings. Look at this rather like a list instead of a ranking.

Also, with 3.0.8 coming sooner rather than later, I'm using the 3.0.4 armor calculation from Rawr as a basis.
I haven't changed this list for 3.1.

[Darkmoon Card: Greatness] - Darkmoon Faire - Agi (approx 180agi, based on 1.2ppm)
[Figurine - Monarch Crab] - Jewelcrafting BoP - (63stam + 2 sockets + 50 dodge rating)
[Defender's Code] - Heroic Maexxna - (850 armor, 75.83 dodge rating)
[Essence of Gossamer] - Heroic Azjol Nerub - (111 stam + ablative proc)
[Indestructible Alchemist's Stone] - Alchemy BoP - (50 dodge rating, 75 stam, Potion Effect)
[Figurine - Ruby Hare] - Jewelcrafting BoP - (62stam + 2 sockets)
[Darkmoon Card: Greatness] - Darkmoon Faire - Str (approx 90agi, 90str, based on 1.2ppm)
[Sonic Booster] - Engineering BoP - (81 stam)
[Valor Medal of the First War] - 10man badges - (139.83 dodge rating)
[Offering of Sacrifice] - Heroic Gundrak - (550 armor)

Just a FYI for those who are thinking about stacking both Darkmoon Cards, they do share the same internal cooldown, so much of the effect is lost. If anything, a 2nd Darkmoon Trinket would probably only increase the PPM to maybe 1.33ppm if you're lucky, but it would still place the trinket below [Loatheb's Shadow] and [Sphere of Red Dragon's Blood]

Last edited by killets : 04/14/09 at 6:56 PM. Reason: Slight update for 3.1

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Old 12/16/08, 8:23 PM   #2
Tuftears
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Aren't you leaving off [Valor Medal of the First War] with respect to feral tanking? 40 badges.

upstart feline miscreant (32 feral/9 resto)

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Old 12/16/08, 9:11 PM   #3
killets
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Yes. I'll add that right now.

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Old 12/16/08, 10:58 PM   #4
Pzychotix
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Darkmoon Cards should be around +100 for the proc stat.

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37112-t...4/#post1005085

Rogues found it to be around a 45s ICD, and with a 35% proc rate, it's going to proc whenever it's up. In other words, it's going to average a 33% uptime, which gives +100 to the stat that it procs.

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Old 12/17/08, 2:53 PM   #5
coldbear
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Think the list is missing [Commendation of Kael'thas]

3.8% +Dodge whenever you need it, whether you notice yourself needing it or not, cannot be denied.

Thinking I'm only dropping it for Essence of Gossamer, Defender's Code or the Greatness card. Strike the Essence, for a hard-hitting boss I'd say the Commendation wins. Counterarguments?


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Old 12/17/08, 3:12 PM   #6
Smartiepants
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I would say that keeping commendation is a very reasonable choice considering the upcoming nerf to the usefulness of defender’s code.

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Old 12/17/08, 3:19 PM   #7
kalbear
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Balnazzar
I think that even with the nerf, I'd rather have 850 armor all the time and 11% dodge every 2 minutes on a hard-hitting boss than 57 stamina and 4% dodge every so often. I'd also rather have 2% dodge all the time with occasionally 4% dodge and more armor than Commendation.

If something like Brutallus comes up again - where you can regularly expect to be low health in significant amounts of the fight and the fight is largely physical - commendation may be useful. It's especially decent given the high stamina that bears already have; having the threshold for this triggering being close to 20k is good. But I don't think it beats current tanking trinkets. 57 stam is just not that good relative to the others.

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Old 12/17/08, 4:40 PM   #8
killets
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Originally Posted by Pzychotix View Post
Darkmoon Cards should be around +100 for the proc stat.

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37112-t...4/#post1005085

Rogues found it to be around a 45s ICD, and with a 35% proc rate, it's going to proc whenever it's up. In other words, it's going to average a 33% uptime, which gives +100 to the stat that it procs.
As far as I know, it cannot average 33% uptime, b/c doing so would imply that you could have it proc in less than 45 seconds, unless the game queues procs for as soon as the ICD is up.

At a 35% proc rate, you should see it proc, theoretically speaking, every 48 seconds or so, correct? Unless it can proc off a DoT tick or specials. But even if it could proc with specials, you're looking at probably 46.5 or so?

Either way, neither affect the fact that it's #1, it's just arguing minute details regarding proc rate.

Originally Posted by coldbear View Post
Think the list is missing [Commendation of Kael'thas]

3.8% +Dodge whenever you need it, whether you notice yourself needing it or not, cannot be denied.

Thinking I'm only dropping it for Essence of Gossamer, Defender's Code or the Greatness card. Strike the Essence, for a hard-hitting boss I'd say the Commendation wins. Counterarguments?
I was honestly surprised that Defender's Code held up so well. The dodge rating is actually quite high, when averaged out over 2 min. So is the armor bonus from it. While it's not overpowered like before, it does impact survivability + mitigation.

As far as Commendation goes, how can you accurately model Commendation in Rawr? Just assume that you always have +152 dodge rating? Based on 57stam alone, it doesn't rank very high, when there are trinkets out there that have double that from a heroic instance. Mathematically speaking, assuming an unrealistically optimistic 33% uptime (assuming you were short healers allowing your health to fluctuate quite rapidly, I would still only assume maybe a 25% uptime at best, b/c you'll simply see long avoidance streaks on occasion, and it simply takes more than 1 sec on avg to drop a tank from high to near death health after that 30s ICD is over), you're only looking at 57stam + 50 dodge rating. Which is good, but not amazing, esp when compared to trinkets such as Alchemist's Stone, which already (at least according to Rawr), fall behind post-nerf Defender's Code + Essence of Gossamer.

Right now, I believe the hardest boss fight for us would be Sartharion 3, requiring the massive # of hit points after the 25% hp debuff to avoid dying to spikes in damage, especially given the split healing you would have between all tanks. I don't think it's fair to discount the stam bonus.

As for the proc, it's actually not that bad. This is also discounting say, the proc on Essence of Gossamer which when procs, would probably provide about 1.5-5% mitigation (including magic dmg mitigation, with probably a 15-20% uptime, depending on the # of mobs you're tanking, and how hard they're hitting). Remember that even 140 dmg off a 9000 damage breath is over 1.5% mitigation.

Again though, as I prefaced there, tanking trinkets are much more a subjective decision, and ultimately, min/maxing the tanking gearing, provided some minimum level of survivability always proves to be inconclusive (it's kind of hard to compare tank gearing successes by statistics between kills, esp when survivability is a metric that has real worth, yet will not appear on a WWS which only tracks mitigation and avoidance).

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Old 12/17/08, 5:30 PM   #9
Mijae
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Originally Posted by killets View Post
As far as Commendation goes, how can you accurately model Commendation in Rawr? Just assume that you always have +152 dodge rating? Based on 57stam alone, it doesn't rank very high, when there are trinkets out there that have double that from a heroic instance. Mathematically speaking, assuming an unrealistically optimistic 33% uptime (assuming you were short healers allowing your health to fluctuate quite rapidly, I would still only assume maybe a 25% uptime at best, b/c you'll simply see long avoidance streaks on occasion, and it simply takes more than 1 sec on avg to drop a tank from high to near death health after that 30s ICD is over), you're only looking at 57stam + 50 dodge rating. Which is good, but not amazing, esp when compared to trinkets such as Alchemist's Stone, which already (at least according to Rawr), fall behind post-nerf Defender's Code + Essence of Gossamer.

Right now, I believe the hardest boss fight for us would be Sartharion 3, requiring the massive # of hit points after the 25% hp debuff to avoid dying to spikes in damage, especially given the split healing you would have between all tanks. I don't think it's fair to discount the stam bonus.

As for the proc, it's actually not that bad. This is also discounting say, the proc on Essence of Gossamer which when procs, would probably provide about 1.5-5% mitigation (including magic dmg mitigation, with probably a 15-20% uptime, depending on the # of mobs you're tanking, and how hard they're hitting). Remember that even 140 dmg off a 9000 damage breath is over 1.5% mitigation.

Again though, as I prefaced there, tanking trinkets are much more a subjective decision, and ultimately, min/maxing the tanking gearing, provided some minimum level of survivability always proves to be inconclusive (it's kind of hard to compare tank gearing successes by statistics between kills, esp when survivability is a metric that has real worth, yet will not appear on a WWS which only tracks mitigation and avoidance).
Commendation really is subjective and difficult to model. It's one of those items you need to customize to an encounter. I wouldn't use it in a default set.

With good healers and just an average difficulty fight, it might never proc. 33% uptime is probably a good estimate for something like off-tanking on Patchwerk where the health fluctuation is large and consistent. However, for large and inconsistent bursts it could have even more value since it kicks in exactly when you need it rather than when the healing is easy.


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Old 12/17/08, 6:33 PM   #10
killets
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Originally Posted by Mijae View Post
Commendation really is subjective and difficult to model. It's one of those items you need to customize to an encounter. I wouldn't use it in a default set.

With good healers and just an average difficulty fight, it might never proc. 33% uptime is probably a good estimate for something like off-tanking on Patchwerk where the health fluctuation is large and consistent. However, for large and inconsistent bursts it could have even more value since it kicks in exactly when you need it rather than when the healing is easy.
Even if you were to look at it as automatic "oh-crap" button, you would think that something like [Defender's Code] would simply be better. Given that "oh-crap" situations should be rare, and not the norm, 152 dodge rating isn't THAT much if you're depending on it to save your life. It translates to only 3.86% dodge, in the rare moment that you face death. [Defender's Code], when used is 11.56% dodge, which is a slightly better "oh-crap" button, provided that it will only have half the uptime of [Commendation of Kael'thas].

You could probably achieve ~30% uptime for Commendation on Patchwerk, but for every other fight, you'd probably be looking at something much worse than 33% uptime.

My personal opinion on this trinket matter though, is that Commendation is really only good if you haven't gotten lucky with drops and are not one of the preferred professions. It might be better than Offering post-patch, but I'm not sure it will help survival more than most of the other available trinkets right now.


Tank Trinkets aside, I forgot to put Mark of Norgannon there. It's actually not THAT great a DPS trinket, as far as Rawr.Cat is concerned, but I suppose if you are severely under the expertise cap (it feels difficult to do these days, with the plethora of expertise on many pieces of druid leather), it wouldn't be that horrible.

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Old 12/22/08, 5:06 AM   #11
ErrantSpark
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For DPS you're missing [Ashtongue Talisman of Equilibrium], with my DPS tests report anywhere between 50 - 60% uptime on the buff when using a mangle rotation, thus it should not be overlooked.

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Old 12/22/08, 11:09 AM   #12
Duilliath
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Duilliath
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That'd depend on your spec. If you're still running 2t6 and a Mangle spec, then yes, it's worthwhile. I ran with it for a while. But by the time you 'graduate' to a full on shred spec, with Mangle glyph, you just don't mangle often enough for it to be interesting.

Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.

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Old 12/22/08, 12:14 PM   #13
Yaha
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Archimonde
Curious why you didn't include [Figurine - Emerald Boar] in your DPS list. Is the boar pet too unreliable?

Not sure if it was intentional but you didn't specify which gems you socketed for the Ruby Hare.

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Old 12/23/08, 8:09 AM   #14
manapaws
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I'm trying to decide between the strength and agility version of the Greatness deck. I have all but 2 numbers. Rawr (and my class knowledge/intuition) tell me the strength version is currently better, but I'm assuming we'll reach a point in the next raid patch or two where agility overtakes strength. The bonus of the agility one is it could double as part of my stacked avoidance set if one becomes needed.

Just looking at Toskk's graph, it only takes about 14.5k ap for agility to be better than strength at my current crit chance; this doesn't sound unreasonable.

I guess, all said and done, by time we do reach this point there will probably be new trinkets dropping / available.

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Old 12/23/08, 12:56 PM   #15
coldbear
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They're messing with the decks currently, so watch out. I have mine, completed recently (for ~4-5000g), and will be picking up the Str version for pvp/dps purposes - though I'm unsure if I'll use it all the time in pvp. If you tank very much at all it's a no-brainer, ofc, but there's a fun factor involved too. I would go for whatever is more fun for you right after the next patch, which should drop soon enough with it being on the PTR already for a week or so.


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