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06/18/09, 9:18 PM
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#1561
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Glass Joe
Worgen Priest
Burning Legion
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Empowered Touch as it is now says "Your Healing Touch spell gains an additional 40% of your bonus healing effects," and the way the talent currently works is that the 40% is added onto the base healing coefficient of the spell. In other words, the coefficient for HT goes from 161.1% to 201.1%; from there, the healing is multiplied by talents and other effects.
Presumably, in 3.2, the talent will read as "Your Healing Touch spell gains an additional 40% and your Nourish gains and additional 20% of your bonus healing effects," which would increase Nourish's coefficient from 67.305% to 87.305%.
Equations I'm using:
((((3000 SP * coefficient) + (Min Base Heal + Max Base Heal)/2)) * (1 + (crit% * (Normal Crit bonus + Living Seed))) * Gift of Nature * Master Shapeshifter * ToL Aura * 20% HoT bonus * 18% HoT bonus from Glyph * 15% HoT bonus from 4pc T7) / Cast Time = Average HPS
(((3000 SP * coefficient) + (Min Base Heal + Max Base Heal)/2)) * Gift of Nature * Master Shapeshifter * ToL Aura * 20% HoT bonus * 18% 3 HoT bonus from Glyph * 15% 3 HoT bonus from 4pc T7 = Average Non-Crit Heal
(((3000 SP * coefficient) + (Min Base Heal + Max Base Heal)/2)) * (1 + (Normal Crit bonus + Living Seed)) * Gift of Nature * Master Shapeshifter * ToL Aura * 20% HoT bonus * 18% HoT bonus from Glyph * 15% HoT bonus from 4pc T7 = Average Crit Heal
Patch 3.1 Nourish:
((((3000 * 0.67305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * (1 + (0.50 * (0.50 + 0.30))) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18 * 1.15) / 1 = 11208 Average HPS
(((3000 * 0.67305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18 * 1.15 = 8006 Average Non-Crit Heal
(((3000 * 0.67305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * (1 + (0.50 + 0.30)) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18 * 1.15 = 14411 Average Crit Heal
Patch 3.2 Nourish:
((((3000 * 0.87305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * (1 + (0.50 * (0.50 + 0.30))) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18 * 1.15) / 1 = 12867 Average HPS
(((3000 * 0.87305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18 * 1.15 = 9191 Average Non-Crit Heal
(((3000 * 0.87305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * (1 + (0.50 + 0.30)) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18 * 1.15 = 16543 Average Crit Heal
The 20% increase to the coefficient is a 14.8% increase overall; Nourish in 3.2 will put out impressive healing on a tank, and will increase Nourish's effectiveness on non-HoTed targets as well.
I was hoping for more good changes, but at least there weren't any serious nerfs. I'm unsure about the Innervate change, however; on short fights it could be a 50% nerf, and on long fights it could be a 150% buff, but I do like the extra flexibility.
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06/18/09, 9:33 PM
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#1562
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Don Flamenco
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The nourish change is excellent, it now gives us 1 direct healing spell that is good both on the tank and on the raid (perhaps too good overall with the crit talent and living seed). Before, glyphed healing touch was better on the raid than nourish in every way, while nourish was better on the tank in every way. It felt silly to glyph 2 direct healing spells on a hot healer.
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06/19/09, 2:46 AM
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#1563
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Von Kaiser
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Does the Warbringer's aura of celerity stack with Nature's Grace? The WoWHead comment says no, but that was before the aura change.
For those of you who didn't know, by mind controlling a Warbringer it gives 20% raid wide haste (in addition to doing roughly 6K DPS). This alters the values of RG to become competitive with RJ while also having the added benefit of half the heal being front loaded. Thorim is all about unpredictable burst damage on the raid, as a raid healer its your top priority to get those folks topped off ASAP. I can't help but feel blanketing RJ is not going to make the difference between those infamous double/triple nuke deaths, while a front loaded hot like RG gets the job done. It actually doesn't come out that far behind depending on if the aura stacks...
In my gear fulling raid buffed:
16,842 = RJ HPC
16,391 = RG /w aura and NG HPC
14,268 = RG /w aura or NG HPC
12,319 = RG
Here's the log of our kill tonight. Unfortunately, I had my heal blinders on and didn't even think to look at the cast time of my RG. My numbers are a bit inflated since I was solo healing the tunnel, but I can't help but feel that this heal strategy worked out. The issue I ran into was that it was an absolute mana hog and I had to steal an innervate from one of our ferals. Overall though, it was much more fun than the snorefest healing has become on most hard fights with RJ spam, however I am becoming rather good at seeing through my tears of boredom to swiftmend when needed  .
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06/19/09, 5:34 AM
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#1564
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by calis
Does anyone have some experience in resto druid performances at vezax hard mode, as well as how many / what kind of healers should be in the raid?
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My guild has only done the hard mode on 10-man, and we've had an off-spec Enhancement Shaman and a Disc Priest. I normally melee the boss for clearcasts, and once Animous spawns, I heal ~90% of my mana... By the time Animos is dead, in essence, General Vezax should be about <10% of health, so the rest of my mana isn't so bad. The off-spec Shaman uses Shamanistic Rage, and another spell I can't quite remember, but basically casts free heals everywhere.
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06/19/09, 10:04 AM
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#1565
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Von Kaiser
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I don't have any problem sparing 2 points for the new Empowered Touch. Here's my build.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I have well over 520 haste and I"m hardly BIS ulduar. It's easy to drop a point in GOTEM before the next patch. If you need the haste, consider dropping NG.
I laughed when I saw lifebloom nerfed again. I guess the 1300 HPS was too OP! One thing that will surprise me is how they expect t9 to be an upgrade if they don't make the instant rejuv baseline. Tier upgrades were very modest statwise as it was, so unless they have a new clever mechanic I don't want to give up 7-12% extra frontloaded healing.
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06/19/09, 11:56 AM
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#1566
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Mannoroth
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Originally Posted by The Inevitable
Equations I'm using:
((((3000 SP * coefficient) + (Min Base Heal + Max Base Heal)/2)) * (1 + (crit% * (Normal Crit bonus + Living Seed))) * Gift of Nature * Master Shapeshifter * ToL Aura * 20% HoT bonus * 18% HoT bonus from Glyph * 15% HoT bonus from 4pc T7) / Cast Time = Average HPS
(((3000 SP * coefficient) + (Min Base Heal + Max Base Heal)/2)) * Gift of Nature * Master Shapeshifter * ToL Aura * 20% HoT bonus * 18% 3 HoT bonus from Glyph * 15% 3 HoT bonus from 4pc T7 = Average Non-Crit Heal
(((3000 SP * coefficient) + (Min Base Heal + Max Base Heal)/2)) * (1 + (Normal Crit bonus + Living Seed)) * Gift of Nature * Master Shapeshifter * ToL Aura * 20% HoT bonus * 18% HoT bonus from Glyph * 15% HoT bonus from 4pc T7 = Average Crit Heal
Patch 3.1 Nourish:
((((3000 * 0.67305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * (1 + (0.50 * (0.50 + 0.30))) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18 * 1.15) / 1 = 11208 Average HPS
(((3000 * 0.67305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18 * 1.15 = 8006 Average Non-Crit Heal
(((3000 * 0.67305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * (1 + (0.50 + 0.30)) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18 * 1.15 = 14411 Average Crit Heal
Patch 3.2 Nourish:
((((3000 * 0.87305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * (1 + (0.50 * (0.50 + 0.30))) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18 * 1.15) / 1 = 12867 Average HPS
(((3000 * 0.87305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18 * 1.15 = 9191 Average Non-Crit Heal
(((3000 * 0.87305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * (1 + (0.50 + 0.30)) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18 * 1.15 = 16543 Average Crit Heal
The 20% increase to the coefficient is a 14.8% increase overall; Nourish in 3.2 will put out impressive healing on a tank, and will increase Nourish's effectiveness on non-HoTed targets as well.
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I reran your numbers for those of us who have ditched 4pc T7 in favor of T8:
Patch 3.1 Nourish:
((((3000 * 0.67305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * (1 + (0.50 * (0.50 + 0.30))) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18) / 1 = 9746 Average HPS
(((3000 * 0.67305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18 = 6961 Average Non-Crit Heal
(((3000 * 0.67305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * (1 + (0.50 + 0.30)) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18 = 12530 Average Crit Heal
Patch 3.2 Nourish:
((((3000 * 0.87305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * (1 + (0.50 * (0.50 + 0.30))) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18) / 1 = 11188 Average HPS
(((3000 * 0.87305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18 = 7992 Average Non-Crit Heal
(((3000 * 0.87305) + (1883+2187)/2)) * (1 + (0.50 + 0.30)) * 1.10 * 1.04 * 1.06 * 1.20 * 1.18 = 14385 Average Crit Heal
The overall increase in this case is 12.9%. The increase for non-HoTed targets is 9.1%
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06/19/09, 1:02 PM
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#1567
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Aman'Thul
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Originally Posted by Maraili
"Empowered Touch: Now also increases the amount of bonus healing effects for Nourish by 10/20%."
This change, as Arentios mentioned, will help to reduce the number of floater points that we have left over after taking all of the really good talents in the Resto tree. After picking up 2/2 Empowered Touch we will have one extra points, which I personally will be putting in Revitalize after the recent discussion about the raid benefits that it brings. The problem I have with this though is that to bring the most benefit to the raid that we can, we ideally want 3/3 Revitalize, but we don't have enough points to get that without stealing from other talents. The easiest place to take out that point from is to just do 4/5 GotEM, unless I'm missing some other talent.
Using the numbers found earlier in this thread for the haste soft cap: Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion which I believe are still current/correct, this would mean that for a normal 25 man raid (Wrath of Air and Moonkin/Ret Auras) we need to have 541 haste rating to stay at the soft cap. This should not only make us start GCD clipping Nourish casts while under the effects of Nature's Grace ( Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion) but it also pushes us even more heavily towards a very haste heavy itemization strategy. While I like this change for the buffs to Nourish that it gives (I use Nourish quite a bit) and 541 haste rating is definitely obtainable in Ulduar gear I'm worried that it's pigeonholing us even more into using haste instead of crit on every piece of gear.
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Well, I am not sure that taking points from GoTEM or revitalize is a good idea. Isn't each point in GoTEM worth over 100 haste? Revitalize is just an outstanding talent now and with %20 nerf to replenishment is even more important. I suppose you could take a point out of NG. Is the new ET really something we need to have? I don't really see it changing the current situation. I of course would put my 1 floater point into it, but I don't see taking points from other places to buff something that is a small percentage of my healing. I suppose if you use Nourish alot then maybe it might be worth it.
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06/19/09, 1:40 PM
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#1568
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Don Flamenco
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I'm able to free up one junk point fairly easily (sitting in Tranquility for the sake of being someplace atm) and move it over to a revised Empowered Touch talent. I also wouldn't mind moving a point out of Subtlety but those points are stuck in upper tier talents as pre-req points to get to deeper tiers. I'm not likely to move a point out of deeper talents (Revitalize, GoteM, Living Seed) to get 2/2 in Empowered Touch. I'll likely be 1/2 based on what I see/know now -- subject to change on new information.
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06/19/09, 4:21 PM
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#1569
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Von Kaiser
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Well, for those who care about what these proposed changes will do to our gear, I've taken the liberty of of adjusting my latest loot rankings to reflect the 25% increased to mp5, and the minor nerf to int.
I've simply replaced 1 mp5 with 1.25 mp5 also
I've taken the .210 mp5 that 100% uptime on replenish gives us, multiplied that by .8 (to reflect 80% uptime) and then multiplied it again by .8 (to reflect the upcoming nerf. It ends up being a .0336 reduction in Int as a stat value.
Loot ranking based on upcoming changes
This link wont be accurate after 3.2 hits, but it should give us a good peak into the future.
Loot Ranking Values Used:
Int: .523
Spirit: .548
Mp5: 1.25
SP: .8
Haste: .35
Crit: .152
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06/19/09, 11:43 PM
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#1570
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Toadfoot
Well, I am not sure that taking points from GoTEM or revitalize is a good idea. Isn't each point in GoTEM worth over 100 haste? Revitalize is just an outstanding talent now and with %20 nerf to replenishment is even more important. I suppose you could take a point out of NG. Is the new ET really something we need to have? I don't really see it changing the current situation. I of course would put my 1 floater point into it, but I don't see taking points from other places to buff something that is a small percentage of my healing. I suppose if you use Nourish alot then maybe it might be worth it.
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Unless you're purposefully avoiding haste, and I have no idea why you would, you'll have no problem dropping a point in GOTEM by the time you finish Ulduar. As far as dropping Revitalize, I don't know any other talent that would justify it. You've already got full Living Seed, Nature's Grace (if that's your thing), just no Natural Perfection. Dropping Nature's Grace is most likely a decision one would make to pick up Improved Barkskin for a fight like Freya +3.
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06/22/09, 12:03 PM
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#1571
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Glass Joe
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I'm personally excited about the nourish buff because like many have said I have the wandering point that ends up in tranquility(which i never use). It also appeals to me because I glyph and use nourish more often than regrowth for spot healing and what not(only use regrowth for the hot). I know alot of people disagree with this tactic (mostly druids that became dependent on regrowth in bc) but if you look at the amount of extra healing that can be done when glyphed with hots and now this bonus in IT I think it will be the undisputed direct affect heal for druids. At least i'm sure thats what blizz is striving for so that their fancy new spell doesn't get overlooked.
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06/22/09, 12:23 PM
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#1572
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Don Flamenco
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I was thinking of getting the second point for Empowered Touch from Nature's Swiftness actually. I know it sounds crazy, but out of all the other stuff I could drop, it sounds the least useful (for a raid healer).
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06/22/09, 12:39 PM
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#1573
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Rijndael
I was thinking of getting the second point for Empowered Touch from Nature's Swiftness actually. I know it sounds crazy, but out of all the other stuff I could drop, it sounds the least useful (for a raid healer).
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Curious. Why would you drop NS instead of say... a point in Nature's Grace? Losing 33% chance for a 20% hasted cast seems like a much more reasonable trade off than losing one of our best utility spells-- even for raid healing.
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The nice thing about being a pessimistic, is that you're constantly proven right, or pleasantly surprised.
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06/22/09, 12:59 PM
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#1574
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Oktan
Curious. Why would you drop NS instead of say... a point in Nature's Grace? Losing 33% chance for a 20% hasted cast seems like a much more reasonable trade off than losing one of our best utility spells-- even for raid healing.
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Nature's Swiftness isn't as good as it once was. If you use it on cooldown you will maybe use it 2-3 times on a long fight. But people save it for when it's needed which means the vast majority of the time it's used either never or once per fight. The problem is, in the vast majority of cases it's used on the tank, and it is almost never the case that tier 8 boosted swiftmend isn't up for that. Nature's Swiftness is a lot more useful for Shamans than for us (which is why they are getting the cooldown reduction in 3.2).
I mean you give up *something* but to me it's very little. Maybe that means I am not using NS as much as I should. (Of course I was also one of those crazy people who played with glyphed healing touch for a long while).
3/3 Nature's Grace allows you to spam Nourish at about 1 second cast times once you get the first crit. This is why it's a lot more useful than 2/3 Nature's Grace. I would *like* to give up a point in GotEM but as people earlier in the thread pointed out, I would need a bit more haste than I thought. Of course by the time 3.2 rolls around that much haste may be available.
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06/22/09, 1:36 PM
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#1575
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Aman'Thul
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Originally Posted by goodolarchie
Unless you're purposefully avoiding haste, and I have no idea why you would, you'll have no problem dropping a point in GOTEM by the time you finish Ulduar. As far as dropping Revitalize, I don't know any other talent that would justify it. You've already got full Living Seed, Nature's Grace (if that's your thing), just no Natural Perfection. Dropping Nature's Grace is most likely a decision one would make to pick up Improved Barkskin for a fight like Freya +3.
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Well, I was under the impression that with 4/5 gotem you will need 541 haste to maintain your 1 second GCD on hots. At over 510 haste(please correct me if I am wrong) you start clipping Nourish anyway(with NG up). So the extra 4-5% from the second point might not actualy be worth that much. I am no expert, but it seems like hasting up to 510, keeping 5/5 gotem and then going after crit or something might be a better idea. But then again we are talking about something that is only a small percentage of our healing anyway.
Edit-I think this method also has the added benefit of helping to keep your GCD on hots at close to 1 second, if something decides to eat your moonkin, ret or shammy.
Last edited by Toadfoot : 06/22/09 at 1:55 PM.
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