Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion - Page 107

Vazu · 06/23/09, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Funkychicken

This is the spec I have found to be the most successful for healing hardmodes in a 25 man setting, and barring additional patch notes I intend to use it going into 3.2:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

It focuses on all the necessary buffs to HoTs while skipping all the direct heal talents aside from Nature's Bounty. It also includes both 3/3 Revitalize and 2/2 Improved Barkskin. Keep in mind that at lower gear levels 5/5 GoTEM is mandatory, I would probably remove one point from Nature's Grace to pick that up. Also, bear in mind that for 10 man hardmodes the value of direct heals is increased and points in the new Empowered Touch and possibly Tranquil Spirit will be more beneficial in that setting.

Yeah, that will be my build as well with a few minor changes. I'd like to comment on Nourish though and perhaps give you a different perspective.

Let's use Iron Council hard mode as an example.

You just started P3 with Steelbreaker being the only add left alive. Your tank is now getting hit for a TON of damage. I always leave at LEAST a Rejuvenation up on tanks. Primarily because (in addition to being Swiftmendable) if he/she dips below 50%, my glyph kicks in for another 1200-1300 healing. Your tank suddenly takes a huge hit and you want to throw a quick Nourish on them. What are the odds you're going to stand there and spam Nourish? If you aren't spamming it, why take Nature's Grace? You wouldn't get the full effect of that talent unless you are direct healing a ton. Isn't that something you want to avoid? So in terms of speccing for the "lesser of two evils" if all you do is raid heal, Empowered Touch I think will be better in 3.2. I want that single spot heal I throw on a tank to hit for 20% more. I care much less that if it crits suddenly my NEXT Nourish has a reduced casting time. I shouldn't have to spam it. That's why we have Priests and Paladins. I'm just "helping" them. So, if you won't be spamming Nourish, wouldn't you want your spot heals to be 20% more effective?

Again as I've said before, this decision depends on your raid. If you really DO need to use Nourish a lot, Nature's Grace is amazing. But if your WWS logs show Nourish at < 5%, Nature's Grace is really underwhelming.

ttyl · 06/23/09, 6:08 PM

From mmo-champion:

Druid T9 Restoration 2P Bonus (Nourish) (Class: Druid) -- Increases the critical strike chance of your Nourish spell by 5%.
Druid T9 Restoration 4P Bonus (Rejuvenation) (Class: Druid) -- Your Rejuvenation ability now has a chance for its healing to be critical strikes.

Druid T9 Restoration Relic (Rejuvenation) (Class: Druid) -- Each time your Rejuvenation spell deals periodic healing, you have a chance to gain 234 spell power for 9 sec.

Interesting... Mathematically, wouldn't t9 4P be only a bit more healing done, on average, then t8 4P? Napkin math: 6x 2000 RJ ticks w/ 20% chance to crit = 14400 healing done on average versus 6x 2000 RJ ticks + 1500 insta tick = 13500 healing done. 900 more uncontrollable healing? :\ At least Relic will be awesome for some fights.

Arentios · 06/23/09, 6:54 PM

Originally Posted by ttyl

From mmo-champion:
Interesting... Mathematically, wouldn't t9 4P be only a bit more healing done, on average, then t8 4P? Napkin math: 6x 2000 RJ ticks w/ 20% chance to crit = 14400 healing done on average versus 6x 2000 RJ ticks + 1500 insta tick = 13500 healing done. 900 more uncontrollable healing? :\ At least Relic will be awesome for some fights.

Your math is assuming that the set bonus heals are 100% crits, while all other heals in the game are 50% crits (excluding Prot Paladins). You'd be looking at 13200 expected healing in that case.

It's also a question of front loaded and controllable versus random chance, which spread out over 18 seconds is somewhat significant.

Toadfoot · 06/23/09, 6:59 PM

Originally Posted by ttyl

From mmo-champion:
Interesting... Mathematically, wouldn't t9 4P be only a bit more healing done, on average, then t8 4P? Napkin math: 6x 2000 RJ ticks w/ 20% chance to crit = 14400 healing done on average versus 6x 2000 RJ ticks + 1500 insta tick = 13500 healing done. 900 more uncontrollable healing? :\ At least Relic will be awesome for some fights.

Yeah these bonuses seem like they stink. I would much prefer the insta tick than the chance for crit I think. The 2 piece bonus seems like the really bad one. I use SM all the time and was pretty happy with that bonus, but the 5% crit bonus to Nourish?? Sure seems like they are trying like hell to get us to us Nourish. Maybe the new instance will give us a reason to do that.

Grizabella · 06/23/09, 7:28 PM

I feel like the T8 4pc bonus is the kind of thing you shouldn't take away once you've let druids get addicted to it.

I'm hoping they'll make a glyph out of it or change the current RJ glyph. I mean, being able to say "my hots crit!" is cool and all, but being able to prioritize your RJ targets to the ones with at least a little less than 100% health is much more controlled.

We'll probably still be a little OP with the T9 bonus, so I doubt my wishes will come true, but I know I'll be clinging on to my 4pc for a while.

And yes, it does seem they are trying to validate the existence of Nourish more and more, but crit isn't the answer. They should just put a small HoT or speed increase on it. Of course then gHT would be obsolete.

uliko · 06/23/09, 7:28 PM

You have to factor in how many ticks you actually get from a rejuvenation cast to get an idea of how good/bad 4t9 is. Using Freya +3 as an example there were 202 rejuvenations cast and as expected 202 4t8 procs averaging ~20% overheal while there were only 502 ticks out of a possible 1320 leading to ~2,50 ticks/cast. Math assumes 3272sp and 18% crit at which point you'll have 2600 ticks and 2000 4t8 procs.

So given that a rejuvenation cast with 4t8 only ticks 2,50 times you could argue that 4t8 "steals" some of the tick healing, probably true, so I'll give 4t9 3 ticks to work with.

4t8 gives an extra 1600 healing/cast with overhealing factored in and rejuvenation itself gives 2,50*2600=6500 healing, a boost of 24,6%. Again, some might be "stolen" from the ticks but being instant and frontloaded outweighs that in my opinion.

4t9 is assumed to crit at 150% like all other healing spells. So we get an extra 1300 healing 18% of the time on ticks. Now on 3 ticks we'll get 3*0,18 procs or 0,54 procs/cast meaning 702 extra healing per cast or 6,4%.

Freya may not be a fair comparison due to the spikyness of damage so lets look at Council instead where it's more sustained.

207 casts and 907 ticks gives 4,40 ticks/cast. 4t8 overhealing has increased to 30%.

4t8 now gives 1400 healing/cast while the ticks itself gives 2600*4,40=11400 healing reducing the benefit down to 12,3%.

4t9 gets no extra ticks in this scenario since the damage is so frequent that it is unlikely that 4t8 instant heal takes away a significant portion. 18%*4,40=0,79 procs/cast for a total benefit of 1029 or 9%.

While this shows 4t9 as being pretty weak remember my sample size is extremely small, only two fights. It also disregards the stat gain from using t9 instead of t8 as well as the nature of the fights in the Coliseum. However 4t8 is always there and reliable while 4t9 is random and unless we start seeing spi/crit/haste pieces in t9 it will be hard to push crit to ~25% or higher.

Jurik · 06/23/09, 7:36 PM

I think an important component is whether crit ticks will proc Nature's Grace. With ~4-5 rejuvenations active and ticking, this could lead to uptimes of ~80% or more of the 20% spell haste buff.

Kreoss · 06/23/09, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by Grizabella

Of course then gHT would be obsolete.

Glyphed Healing Touch will never be obsolete because it's on of the best combos to level till 80 (healing that is...) till you get Nourish.

If you check all other classes 4Pieces bonus most of them increases Spell X Critical Strike by Z% Crit, so we can assume that at least part of them are placeholders.

The List of new glyphs (if there is going to be any) is yet to know, one can only hope that a T84P RJ bonus is coming to a Glyph, since the bonus changed quite a bit the way we use one of our core spells. They did it with Nourish, but then Nourish has been a bit "pushed" into us, rejuvenation had already a strong position on our spell arsenal before T8 came into play.

Omen · 06/24/09, 5:17 AM

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Remember, we are also nerfing Penance, Prayer of Healing and Lifebloom. The latter won't be felt as much in PvE, but also realize we are talking about 3.2 changes here and the current druid set bonuses (which might be slightly overpowered) won't be around. (source)

I'm not sure if GC is talking about the PvP set bonuses or T8 (I don't know anything about PvP), but if he's referring to the T8 bonuses then we probably won't see the RJ bonus turned into a glyph/talent any time soon.

With the new RJ Idol, I do hope that there is no ICD -- especially not 45s like most other items -- because that would make it incredibly weak compared to Harold's Rejuvenating Broach. On long fights with intense periodic damage, it would also be hard to justify trading up to 375mp5 from Idol of Awakening with the extra sp. However, for fights where mana is not an issue, I do like that we'll potentially have a new throughput idol.

Can someone calculate the probabilities of getting various amounts of crits per cast and the average bonus health per cast for 4T9? (I'm horrible at stats.) I'm interested in how 4T9 average compares to the 1900+ hits we're seeing from 4T8. It would be awesome if the crits procced LS, but I'm highly doubting it.

Edit: Stat deltas using Legs, Shoulders, Gloves, and Helm from 226 T8 to x iLevel T9 should anyone be interested.

T8-232: 20 Int | -2 Spi | 17 SP | -13 Cri | 24 Has
T8-245: 60 Int | 32 Spi | 79 SP | 4 Cri | 41 Has
T8-258: 104 Int | 74 Spi | 149 SP | 25 Cri | 62 Has
Sockets: 1 Red | -1 Blue
Socket Bonuses: -12 Spi | 14 SP

Rijndael · 06/24/09, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Omen

Can someone calculate the probabilities of getting various amounts of crits per cast and the average bonus health per cast for 4T9? (I'm horrible at stats.)

You don't need to do any of that. Here's what you do:

(a) Record a typical fight with any mod that differentiates healing done by Rejuv itself from healing done by the Rejuv tier 8 bonus (I use EHFS).

(b) Consider your critical strike percentage with raid buffs, and multiply Rejuv healing done by that number (discounting by the 150% value of crit). In other words, if you do 75% healing with Rejuv (without the tier 8 bonus), and you have 20% crit chance, you will do: 75% * (0.2 * 1.5 + 0.8 * 1) = 82.5%, for an increase of 7.5%. (This is an approximation because Rejuv crits will increase Rejuv overhealing so the real number would be a little smaller).

You can compare the number you got in (b) with the tier 8 bonus healing number and decide which is better for what fights. I think Rejuv needs to crit at 200% for the tier 9 bonus to be better than the tier 8 bonus. Perhaps if Living Seed affected Rejuv crits things would be ok.

Arentios · 06/24/09, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Rijndael

You don't need to do any of that. Here's what you do:

(a) Record a typical fight with any mod that differentiates healing done by Rejuv itself from healing done by the Rejuv tier 8 bonus (I use EHFS).

(b) Consider your critical strike percentage with raid buffs, and multiply Rejuv healing done by that number.

You can compare the number you got in (b) with the tier 8 bonus healing number and decide which is better for what fights.
For me, on Rejuv heavy fights, 4 piece tier 9 is better than 4 piece tier 8 to the tune of 4-5% healing done (e.g. I would do about 10% healing done with tier 8 and about 14-15% with tier 9).

Always, always remember to multiply your number from B by 0.5. Heals are only 50% crits. Simply multiplying by crit percentage assumes 100% crits. Also remember to factor in overheal from the crits. Obviously this would be offset a bit if the set bonus procs Living Seed.

Norfair · 06/24/09, 11:51 AM

Also, it's not certain if the crit chance is the same as on our paper doll. It might be that there is a fixed crit chance that does not scale with gear as the wording is different than for example the Rupture set bonus. It says there is "a chance for its healing to be critical strikes" and not like the Rupture bonus that "it can now be critical strikes".

heldrath · 06/24/09, 12:21 PM

Any thoughts on whether or not the T9 4PC will have an internal CD? Would be fun to see a lucky string crits off every tick, although the chances of RNG loving you that much...

Lurchington · 06/24/09, 12:25 PM

FeralbyNight (Cat & Bear simulation tool)

Is showing Idol of Mutilation as having no ICD, so maybe resto idols and set bonuses will luck out as well. It's not much to go on though.

Toadfoot · 06/24/09, 1:31 PM

Ok, I am going to take a stab at calculating the difference from my raid today. Somebody plz tell me if I did this correctly. WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay. Just picked 2 random fights.

Kolg: Rejuv 595,697, T8 154,292 so the T9 would be 595,697x.2(just assume 20% crit rate)x.5=59,570. Is that correct?
Hodir: Rejuv 848,069, T8 191.938 so the T9=848,069x.2x.5=84,806.

If those numbers are somewhat correct that seems like a pretty big nerf. I understand that the T9 has some pretty sexy stats and will actually cause rejuv total healing to go up, but I wonder if it makes up the difference?