• uliko

The GotEM change was this last patch (3.0.8). It had been .3s off before haste ever since the talent got introduced until latest patch. Since it's now multiplicative it doesn't matter if its before or after haste any longer, it's simply a *0.80 mod on the GCD.

Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."

 

Zoltair

(*0.80 is only if 5/5 GotEM)

Good point, you can do the *(G%-1) at any point in the equation. Thanks Uliko!

Regardless, new Haste GCD Caps with GotEM are here:

http://elitistjerks.com/1079250-post270.html

 

Mithip

For Loatheb I try to time my lifebloom to make it bloom when the aura goes off. Can generally do it on 3-4 target


I use Lifebloom 3 stacks all the time on the tank as well with Rejuv and Regrowth if needed. But sometimes i do Regrowth to make it even easier to heal. Swiftmend when needed and regrowth crits with a Living Seed is always good for any fights.

 

Dendrek

I've been looking at the numbers for Healing Touch (unglyphed), and I must say it's looking awfully interesting. These are purely theory crafted numbers, as I like to play around with the numbers before making any spec/glyph changes.

Important Notes:
1. "Effective HPS" is the amount of healing per second a spell is potentially able to do over time given its global cooldown. Some spells, like a glyphed/talented HT, glyphed HT with Nature's Grace proc, or Nourish with Nature's Grace proc, can have a cast time that is less than its global cooldown. But in order to cast another spell afterwards, or to recast that same spell, the player would first have to wait for the GCD.
2. "Average heal" is the expected average amount healed between all critting and non-critting casts of the spell. For the purposes of these calculations, the amount of critting casts that are expected is based on the total crit percent chance of the spell being cast (which is the total between crit % from talents (Improved Regrowth, Natural Perfection, and/or Nature's Majesty) and gear. "Average HPS" is calculated using this same principle.
3. "Values with Living Seed estimates" are values for Average heal and Average HPS assuming Living Seed procs a percent of the time equal to the spell's crit percent, and that all procs are fully used (which is obviously not a very realistic assumption). These values should not be taken as accurate predictions but rather as "best case" scenarios. Likewise, "Values with Living Seed and Nature's Grace estimates" include Nature's Grace procs in the Living Seed calculations for HPS, which again are ideal (assuming all Nature's Grace procs are used to their full potential) but not very realistic. Even though these are not realistic, they can be used to give an idea of the maximum potential of each spell (and weigh more heavily in favor of Regrowth, with its high crit %, than any of the other spells).

I'm going to compare HT (talented, unglyphed), Regrowth (talented, glyphed), Nourish (t7, 3 HoTs on target), and HT (talented, glyphed).

Base Stats to work with:
Bonus Healing (in ToL): 2000
Haste from gear = 10%
Crit from gear = 10%


Healing Touch (unglyphed)
Talented: 18/0/53 (Talents chosen to maximize HT's effectiveness. This is not an ideal HoT build, as it takes no points in GotEM, instead putting those points in Tranquil Spirit for improved mana efficiency.)

Non-crit heal = 9438 - 10261 (average = 9850)
Crit heal = 14157 - 15392 (average = 14775)
Living Seed =~ 4432
Average heal =~ 10687
Average HPS =~ 4845 hps
Average HPM =~ 11.5 hpm
Average HPM (without Tranquil Spirit) =~ 10.2 hpm

Values with Living Seed estimates:
Average heal =~ 11440
Average HPS =~ 5186

Values with Living Seed and Nature's Grace estimates:
Average HPS =~ 5407


Regrowth (glyphed)
Talented: 18/0/50 (Again, these talents were chosen to maximize Regrowth's effectiveness. Some points are optional and some points were left unspent.)

Non-crit heal = 5160 - 5540 (average = 5350)
Crit heal = 7740 - 8309 (average = 8024)
Living Seed =~ 2407
Average heal =~ 7035
Average HPS =~ 3986 hps
Average HPM =~ 9.8 hpm

Values with Living Seed estimates:
Average heal =~ 8551
Average HPS =~ 4846

Values with Living Seed and Nature's Grace estimates:
Average HPS =~ 5863


Nourish (t7 4 set, 3 HoTs on target)
Talented: 18/0/50 (A pretty standard build for resto druids, but with points in Tranquil Spirit to increase Nourish's mana efficiency.)

Non-crit heal = 5280 - 5777 (average = 5528)
Crit heal = 7919 - 8666 (average = 8293)
Living Seed =~ 2488
Average heal =~ 5998
Average HPS =~ 4532 hps
Average HPM =~ 11.7 hpm
Average HPM (without Tranquil Spirit) =~ 10.5 hpm

Values with Living Seed estimates:
Average heal =~ 6421
Average HPS =~ 4851

Values with Living Seed and Nature's Grace estimates:
Average HPS =~ 5264 (Note: Nourish's effective HPS (when spammed) with LS and NG is 4851)


Healing Touch (glyphed)
Talented: 18/0/53 (Talents chosen to maximize HT's effectiveness. NOTE: Though HT's single-cast HPS is improved by Naturalist, it's "effective" HPS (when spammed) is not affected by Naturalist because HT's cast time is made less than its global cooldown.)

Non-crit heal = 4281 - 4654 (average = 4467)
Crit heal = 6421 - 6981 (average = 6701)
Living Seed =~ 2010
Average heal =~ 4847
Average HPS =~ 5493 hps (Note: HT's effective Average HPS (when spammed) is 3662)
Average HPM =~ 7.5 hpm
Average HPM (without Tranquil Spirit) =~ 6.3 hpm

Values with Living Seed estimates:
Average heal =~ 5189
Average HPS =~ 5881 (Note: HT's effective Average HPS (when spammed) with LS is 3920)

Values with Living Seed and Nature's Grace estimates:
Average HPS =~ 6880 (Note: HT's effective Average HPS (when spammed) with LS and NG is 4254)

-----------------------------------------

If these calculations are accurate, I think the following conclusions can be made:
1. Unglyphed Healing Touch has the greatest HPS and HPM of a resto druid's available direct healing spells.
2. When ignoring the impacts of Nature's Grace and Living Seed, Nourish with t7 bonus and several HoTs on the target is the second best spell for HPS and HPM.
3. When including the "best case scenario" calculations for Living Seed and Nature's Grace, Regowth's HPS surpasses that of Nourish.
4. Glyphed Healing Touch has the highest *single cast* HPS of all the spells (though it's effective HPS (when spammed) is less than Regrowth and Nourish). However, its HPM is by far the worst of all other options.

-------------------------------------------
If you guys notice any miscalculations, please let me know. With this many numbers, it's not unlikely I mistyped something.

[edit] I'm going to experiment with an unglyphed HT-oriented build and see how well it works.
[edit] I noticed some errors in my HT calculations (I misplaced one of the talent coefficients in the formula and it gave inaccurate results). There is, as far as I know, no error in my other calculations. My conclusions still appear to be accurate, but by a less significant margin.

 

Averna2

Phaelia, as usual, has a really great article about this on Resto4life, which you can find here:
Resto4Life» Blog Archive » Living Seed, Replenish, and Gift of the Earthmother

She also goes into detail about Living Seed and GotEM.

The TL;DR version (quoted from her website): "Replenish is bad for Paladin, Warrior, and Bear Tanks and good for mana users with sizeable mana pools. Its value is questionable to Death Knights with the possible exception of those who are Frost-specced."

So replenish is good for players with large mana pools. The thing is, most players with large mana pools aren't going to be having mana issues anyway (with the exception of someone who's really undergeared, I suppose). Replenish is also so dependent on the situation: 1. You have to be healing the person (and if the person is a dps caster or a healer, you're most likely not going to be throwing a ton of heals on them), and 2. you *have* to use rejuv for it to proc.

 

GTtheBard

Personally, I haven't had any issues with Replenish. The Death Knights and Rogues I've spoken to love it, even though over the course of a five minute fight it might only give them something like 3-7 extra attacks. It could certainly be buffed, but if you use Rejuv a lot then it's just free DPS. I somehow feel like Phae is off with the DK bit - yes, they have a certain rotation, but Gargoyle eats up a lot of RP and any extra that they can get has always been welcome from the DKs I've spoken with. Though admittedly, my game card expired a few weeks ago, and the DK I consistently rolled Rejuv on was DW Spec, which I understand is all but dead as of 3.08.

 

KatZa

At 3.0.8 changed build to Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Need an advice is it good, or I have made some mistakes?
In Tree form have 20.5% crit self buffed, have Regrowth (glyphed).
My guild mates told me that there is no sense to use both Regroth and Nourish.

Healing style is next -
Rejuvenation on the targets who get some damage, spam of Regroth, melee group gets Wild Growth (by CD) and they get Nourish.

Please give some recommendations, getting into mind that I do not use Lifebloom often.

 

Arkonos

I'd take natures grace since you spam regroth
If you aren't realy staved for mana I'd skip tranquill spirit (one point TS and two in Sublety)
if you really want natural perfection I recommend you this specc
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

you should check the HPM, HPS from Regroth and nourish (with glyphes, T7 bonus etc) and have a closer look when to use whitch spell
(I use regroth for dmg spikes at 1-3 dd's, lifebloom when the whole raid takes dmg (vortex) and nourish only when swiftmend is on cd and the other healers don't see the 10% at the tank (I don't have the T7 bonus)
you also should give lifebloom a try. it's nerfed but in my opinion it should be on the tank nearly the whole fight
To learn holding lifebloom up on 2+tanks I recommend Patchwork since you don't have to heal dd's)

 

KatZa

And what about 18/0/53
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

for Regrowth (glyphed)?
With 3% of haste in balance part of talants?

p.s. do not have T7 4 pieces bonus

 

Arkonos

well I'm far away of being a pro and other people here will give you more exact answers
soft hast cap is something at 200
you should check witch part of you healing lack the most. do you wish you cd was shorter? do you run out of mana? etc
I don't know what you are raiding or what gear you have, but if you started raiding with wotlk as I did, you maybe can improve your healing by playing better :)
When I was at EoE10 the first time ever, I recognized how week rejuvenation is to heal raid dmg and I'll swap to lifebloom but since I have only ~1800 SP buffed but 1100 mana regg I have to cast LB+REJ in the vortex to keep everyone alive

I don't tell you this because I wan't you to copy my style of plaing(It's far away of being perfect), I tell you this so that you get an idea how flexible healing with a Tree is (and thats the reason I love it) while there are some things that are a must-do

ps:Gift of the Earthmother is a must have since you cast instants most of the time. When you topped hast cap you can take out one point for another. Sacrificing -12% cd after hots doesn't legitimate 3% haste and you can't achieve a dreamstate-HT spamming specc anymore afaik)

 

KatZa

I am sorry that can not give link to armory, because our guild has moved armory is not showing (from 16 of Jan).
I was raiding before BC as holy priest (MC, BWL, AQ40, Naxx (4 bosses)), in BC my twink (druid) became main - was raiding a little with her (HS and BT), now raiding Naxx 25.
I have around 2080 HP (self buffed), 20,5% crit, 5% haste, about 360 mp5 when casting.
The idea why I use not often lifebloom is because the style of our healers is spamming more, and pally, shammy (with chain heals) and 3 priests overheal most of the HoTs.

Some of the fights I feel that I am on the border of the OOM, so I use Inner on myself and all is OK.

And I am not casting instants for all of the time, as 60-65% (some fights up to 80%) is Regrowth.

 

Nitz

Rejuvenation is better than Lifebloom for raid healing in any way, shape or form. Better HPS, better HPM, better H/GCD and the possibility to Swiftmend it.

 

Akomos

I feel like we've had this discussion before.

Also! If your paladins/shamans/priests are healing over your rejuvs, it's an issue with your raid's healing style. It doesn't magically make rejuv a bad raidheal, unless you're bored enough to be racing whack-a-mole raidheals to top the meters because healing is so freaking easy right now. Which is not a terribly useful discussion to be having, tbh. Go do Patch and laugh at how badly you crush the meters if that's your thing. Sheesh.

Personally, I've switched over to RG for raidheals simply because I do have an issue with healing style with RJ For the life of me I can't get my priest counterpart to pay attention to my HoTs on the raid, so they're relatively useless since he heals over them all the time anyway. If I use RG, OTOH, he goes raidheal-light with just keeping PoM bouncing around and hitting CoH at useful times. Since I have fewer mana issues than he does, this works out well for us since as I've geared into raiding equipment, mana has become more or less a total nonissue (even gemming and enchanting 95% for throughput), using RG/WG almost exclusively for raidhealing is easily supportable.

 

Protto

I ran into the same problem as you have; the priests have failed to recognize what a HoT even is. I toss WG and usually use Regrowth. That way, you can still use SM, and you have already healed the target for more from the get-go. LB is nice for fights like Loatheb or Maly before a few seconds before the vortex; I guess you just need to know when to use it. All spells have their own area.

My two cents.

 

• Playered

Why does it matter if other healers heal over your HoTs? by that logic there is no point putting them on tanks because other healers are providing so much direct healing to them that honestly not that many of your ticks go off per cast.
Now that CoH is gone* you have such a smaller chance of things being overhealed that you shouldn't really complain, not to mention that if you keep hitting issues with other healers consistantly healing over your HoTs to a significant degree then you have too many healers.

HoTs are cheap and they are disposable, you should not be expecting to anything like 75% effective healing from them in anything beyond tailored fights to which they shine (Sapphiron, Felmyst..) and if you really care about things being overhealed then use Regrowth or Nourish for the direct heal before other healers 'steal' your healing.

There is going to be <x> amount of healing to be done on certain jobs, if one of you does 60% and the other 40% then it still gets done and you could justify that two people were needed. If one did 90% and another 10% you would be worth considering dropping one of those healers because it's obvious both are not needed.

 

George

I have to agree with Playered. There are some fights that lend very well to HoT raid healing (e.g. Malygos vortex phase, Sapphiron, etc) where HoT spells alone can keep someone alive without the help of direct heals. If raid damage is bursty though (e.g. Sarth flame crashes, Arcane Barrage during Malygos P2 and the majority of raid damage) you can't expect a priest in that moment of healing to micro-analyze the health situation of each player relative to your HoT spells. You can't forget that your HoT spells have a duration, if a player on 3D sarth has just been hit with a 12k flame crash there might not be time for a priest to even look for a HoT spell let alone analyze whether the remaining duration will apply enough healing or apply the healing fast enough for the situation.

That isn't to say that HoT spells are useless in these situations. I think there is a lot of validity to using HoT spells on the raid in a variety of situations including situations like 3D sarth. I feel that "my HoTs get overhealed by bad priests who don't listen" is an excuse. It could be an excuse to not take a closer look at the healing assignments, an excuse for poor spell choices in a particular situation, or even an excuse for not understanding that it is OK (and even necessary) for HoT spells to be healed over sometimes. I don't think its fair to place blame on other healing classes for what in many cases isn't really an issue at all. When it comes to current raiding content it is more than likely a symptom of healing being too easy/having more healers than are really needed.

 

Averna2

I do agree with you, Playered, but one point to bring up is that if that priest, for example, realizes that there's a HoT on a player, they could hypothetically save some of their mana by just letting it tick and not healing the player up to full.

Granted, this is a completely hypothetical situation. When you see someone at low health, you don't want to just sit there and wait for tick heals, because they could take more damage and die. Also, what priest (or anyone, really, other than a fellow resto druid who has an addon for it) would take the time to look and see if there's a HoT on someone? Takes too much time unless you have an add-on configured.

Unfortunately, the fun of coordinating healing isn't necessary right now. No one really runs out of mana, so why would non-HoT healers save their heals for HoTs to tick? Maybe once we get into an actual mana intensive, difficult instance, this will change.

 

Akomos

I absolutely agree with Playered. However, my point is that by using RG (or Nourish, e.g. on KT frostbolt volleys) rather than RJ in this situation, the priest or paladin who's looking at his healbot or xperl or grid or whatever will (much of the time) skip over that target and heal someone else or save his mana. In a perfect world, yeah, my healing buddies would recognize my hots and leave those targets alone (which is occasionally the case, e.g. Sapphiron). But RJ is a totally wasted cast in a fair number of raidhealing situations -- for me.

Also yeah, my 25man group consistently brings too many healers. Dual specs can't come soon enough.

 

Baranak

1) Why're you worried about wasted heals in a healer heavy environment? Do you have mana issues? If your raid depended on your 8k - 2k every 3 second heal, they'd be long dead. That's the nature of HoTing, a lot of it will not fire or get healed over.

2) For KT's frost bolts, why not just Prejuv 10 and heal for 6k a second instead of spamming regrowth? The class is versatile enough that it's a great raid healer and a single target healer. If you're that wary about someone overhealing your HoTs (lol), why not just glyph HT and then spec appropriately?

 

Akomos

I dunno where you're getting the "omg my hots r getin heald over i ned 2 have btr meter scores!!!1" out of this thread, but that's not the issue.

My point is that with the people I heal with, RJ is in a lot of cases an entirely wasted cast as a raidheal. Using Nourish or RG is a far better solution because it results in much less wasted mana, GCDs, and overheal for the raid as a whole since my co-healers will cancel or skip their casts if they see the healthbar go back up. Prejuving the hell out of the raid is a valid strategy, I guess, but pretty unnecessary for KT frostbolts -- my experience is that I'd be wasting a ton of mana for a fairly low return, given that raid damage in that fight isn't terribly bursty so we're not in danger of losing anyone if it takes 5-10 seconds for someone to get around to dropping a CoH/WG/flash heal/nourish/flash of light on them.

And yeah, my raid brings way too many healers. It's lame and boring =P

 

smeargle

I don't think it's as much an issue of "zomg meters why cant i beat the pally >.<", but rather a "hmm, where are my heals going and what is actually benefiting the raid?"

I agree with your idea concerning other healers stopping their heal once they see the bar go up, but in the long run it just depends on the fight really. But should anyone really be concerned about "wasted mana" right now? There have even been blue posts about OOM-ness being an almost complete non-issue.

Generally I think, "Ok, is rolling lifebloom on tanks (or lifebloom in general) something important for this fight? Or is spamming RJ on the raid somewhat more viable?" Based on those questions, I'll switch idols and heal accordingly. Since our guild is striving for immortal title, generally it's the RJ relic simply because it's easier to spam RJ for the raid heal and swiftmend possibility. However that doesn't mean RGs don't go out on a relatively every other 2 cast rotation.

At this point, it's just waiting til Ulduar for new healing challenges.

 

Rhaegal

All this really means is that right now, your other healers are just as bored as you are. (Or they don't understand the fight mechanics, but I'm hoping that's less likely.) If Gluth tank healing, for example, was a much longer, mana intensive process, your disc priest(s) wouldn't be running around spamming Flash Heals on everyone right after a decimate--they'd know they had to budget their mana and they'd trust your HoTs to bring people up, because it's not at all crucial that they be healed in a timely manner. Similarly, I'd trust my tank healers to do their job, and run around throwing Rejuvs like it was going out of style. I fully expect there to be fights in Ulduar where healers have to actually have assignments and stick to them again, or run the risk of failing at their primary function either because they were distracted or OOM. The fact that that's not the case now doesn't mean one or more of our spells are bad, just what people have been saying since November--the content is easy, don't worry about it. Re-evaluate come 3.1.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

Strydar

IMO, healing as a druid, or as any class is all about reaction time and a sense of good judgment (using the right skill when needed). I personally think WWS / Recount can successfully tell you who has faster reaction time. Every class has the potential to "top healing charts" on every boss fight (give or take a few exceptions like Patchwerk, where the Paladins *should* top). It just comes from the healer himself.

That being said, I think the best way to differentiate if a healer is "good" or "bad" is to isolate the healer from the others. For example, PvP / Heroics is a good way to tell if a healer has good reaction time or not, and also to see if the healer understands that keeping him/herself alive is really important. (A dead druid during Malygos is a dead druid no matter how well you "could" heal if you were alive).

/2cents

 

Mazzarus

I agree. Comparing across classes using recount or WWS seems silly to me. Healing is so much more than who had the most effective healing. A druid like myself topping off people above 75% health may be able to top the charts and totally miss key healing situations (like KT ice blocks for example).

However, I do feel that recount/WWS is a good way to measure similar classes/specs. If you have two pallies and one is doing 20% more effective healing consistently, then I would say that is a good indication of the pallies skill.

p.s. Pallies can't beat me on Patchwerk rolling three full stacks of HoTs ;P

 

malthrin

It's a good thing that log parsers (particularly Stasis) offer a lot more than just a "Total Effective Healing" chart.