With the proposed changes to spirit regen (which I noticed in the Restoration Trinkets thread linking to mmo-champion.com), which will decrease spirit regen and increase the effects of intensity and other similar talents, will this decrease the effect on Innervate significantly?

It depends how much they will nerf spirit, but yes it will have an impact on Innervate. Probably it means no more full mana bar.

Pretty much everything else regeneration based off Spirit has been announced to be compensated for the change to keep things relatively equal to pre-3.1.
Hopefully not mentioning Innervate was just a mistake and it is intended to be updated too, assuming that is done then we have no change to any of our stats from this effect but if Innervate is left alone then it will be crippling to Spirit and a very small nerf to Intellect too.

It's just a tad odd if their intention was to nerf Innervate with the logic that it is overpowered, if this is the case then a baseline nerf for all Druids is understandable so that Moonkins and Ferals do not have such a strong Utility to give away but if that is the case I hope they can add in a self only improvement from it deep in Resto so we are not really effected.

The other portion of the purposed nerf is changing the way that clearcasting procs work which could also be a dangerous change for ferals if they decide to mess with their gains from it.

The hidden silver lining could be from this bullet point...

"We are also taking a close look at clearcasting procs themselves. One likely outcome is to change them to an Innervate-like surge of mana so that the net benefit is the same, but healers won’t shift to out-of-casting regeneration so often."

They particularly mention an innervate like effect for clearcasting so that the net benefit is the same without the ooc regen shift. If they know how to play with the values to balance it out to its previous bonus then hopefully they will do the same with innervate itself. I'm not sure how they will be able to do this though with the wide range in mana costs because I know I'm not the only one that uses that OoC proc for expensive stuff when I can.

They don't want to keep the things the same, they want to nerf overall healer regen (except Shamans, the only healer than can still have mana problems). I don't think they will adjust Innervate up or anything.

They want to remove the ability to game the 5 second rule which is why they have decided to compensate other areas which get hit by this change in order to keep them relatively the same while doing this, Innervate restoring a fixed amount of mana has little to do with this.

Yes reading that post is good, I will point out the two important parts for us here:

A) Regeneration while not casting (outside of the “five second rule”) will be decreased. We think that (1) the ability to cast heal over time spells and then sit back and (2) benefitting from a clearcasting proc that also gets you out of the five second rule both provide too much mana regeneration, even over short time periods.

B) To make this change, we are reducing mana regeneration granted by Spirit across the board. However we are also boosting the effects of talents such as Meditation that increase regeneration while casting. The net result should be that your regeneration while casting will stay about the same, but your not-casting regeneration will be reduced. This change will have little impact on dps casters, since they are basically always casting.


As you can see this is not a "we must nerf mana regeneration in huge ways" change, just one which reduces the gains for managing your 5SR which we could get and as for the most part we did not do this that often so it's a small loss for us. Innervate however has nothing to do with this mechanic and while even if it was buffed to say 800% (assuming regeneration got halved) we would still see a slight reduction in mana returned but nothing near the huge amount it could end up being if left unchanged.

All we have at this point are intentions, not numbers. But the intentions are clearly stated: nerf mana regen. Nearly across the board. Spirit nerfing is part of it, aimed principally at druids and holy priests. Paladins are covered elsewhere. Shamans, who needed some help already, are left out, as are apparently disc priests. But imagine for a moment that 3.1 hits and mana was nerfed in a very flat manner instead, say 20% reduction to regen by all means. You find yourself as a tree in Sapphiron 2.0, undergeared, hurting for mana cuz the fight is taking much longer than it should. You know exactly what you would do, you'd fight for OoC procs every way you could and grasp desperately at every possible second outside the FSR. This is exactly what I had been busy gearing for up until this announcement. Druids were uniquely equipped to use this as a viable technique to skirt around mana issues and Blizz knows it, especially in Sapph-style fights that feature constant steady raid damage with no crazy spikes. The fact that we don't do it now is hardly important. This is a preemptive nerf at a technique that would have immediately gained popularity. In this context, I do not really expect Innervate to be compensated, as this change appears to be aimed largely at spirit-stacking druids. I also wonder if they'll avoid putting out an alch trinket upgrade right now for fear that all healers will feel it to be mandatory. I also expect to start seeing druids talk about dreamstate more. I look forward to getting some numbers to crunch, but for now, I'm putting a list together of gem and enchants and pieces I'll need to switch over to high int.

I highly doubt there will be any positive conversation about Dreamstate from an intelligent Resto Druid because that is a contradictory statement, go spec Moonkin if you want the talent so badly.

Regarding your regemming and enchanting? if you correctly socketed you would have used a 9/8 gem for the bonus (if it was worth it) in blue sockets and at worst you might change that to a 9/3 gem, else you would have just used a runed gem. Red sockets should have been runed in the first place and your yellow sockets should be 9/8 or runed if the bonus was bad. The only enchant which could have been Spirit in the first place would be your boot enchant and as there is no Intellect or Spell Power enchant to be used there you cannot really change it to anything meaningful.

Good luck in your search for gear with "high int" to swap over because almost nothing which sacrifices Spirit will spend that budget on Intellect (it goes on MP5 or Haste/Crit) and any of the items with notably higher Intellect were already the best ([Life-Binder's Locket]) in slot so you should have used it in the first place.

Since the change to Replenish will probably happen at the same time as the change to mana, I might keep Tranquil Spirit... but if mana really doesn't stress me out so much even after that, I'm finally considering picking up Replenish with this build:

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Druid -> Talent Calculator

Currently I use no Replenish: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Druid -> Talent Calculator

The thought is that I wild growth people more often than I rejuv random people, and that talent adds some nice utility. Still... not that excited about it. Also, w/o 4set t7 I might not be using nourish as much as I do now:

WoW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

Anyone else thinking the same thing?

Was actualy thinking about the same specc seeing the change to replenish

Wild growth will hit more targets and since it is ticking every second it will give faster mana then rejuv.

-_- nvm about that missread.

Ofc its all speculations, but I read that someone had done some calculations for WG

Mana cost per Wild Growth Cast = 643

Wild Growth Casts per Minute = 60 / 7 = 8.57

Avg. PPM per Target = 8.57 * 1.05 = 9.0

Mana Cost per Target per Minute = (643 * 8.57)/5 = 1102.102*

Here they have divided the total cost by five targets to avoid overstating the mana cost per target.

We can then apply this new PPM value to our previous calculations by individual class:

Avg. Return per Minute DK = 9 * 16 = 144 Runic Power/Minute

Avg. Return per Minute Warrior = 9 * 4 = 36 Rage/Minute

Avg. Return per Minute Rogue = 9 * 8 = 72 Energy/Minute

I generally use Regrowth over Nourish like most of you have mentioned here. However, there are situations where that .5 second cast time is important. One situation is the Loatheb fight, where we need to get as much healing done in those 4 second windows as we can. When I need to heal my tank during that fight, I use nourish (twice, if I time it right).

You can prep Nature's Grace before the debuff is close to expiring then get two Regrowths off too with the probable chance of a Living Seed proc or two. Granted tank healing on that fight should really consist of 1) pre-load RJ, 2) make RG land after the debuff expires, 3) cast Swiftmend - if the tank is really that desperate for healing.

[e] You could add in an earlier LB to get the bloom after the debuff expired if you want but I said pre-load RJ because it gives you a higher Swiftmend than the one you would have from the Regrowth.

Sure you didn't mean "pre-load LB" there, Playered? =P

Also, is there an easier fight to heal than Loatheb? I mean, once you understand the mechanics of it? Maybe I'm just spoiled in that I have a very competent complementary priest with me, but still.

I have seen many different healing styles amongst many different druids. Thus I have also seen many different listings of styles of healing. I am here to discuss healing rotations healing abilities and most effective heals for the Mana, First let’s take a look at how the druid heals. Druids have never been a fast healer instead we build up to our effective healing. A simple lifebloom on a main tank with rejuvenation will give almost a buffer for other healers to heal through Doing this is making healing immensely easier on the rest of the healers in the raid. But there has to be more than just rolling life blooms and rejuvenation. We have three other raid worthy heals. Let’s talk a bit about them.

Regrowth Heals a friendly target for 2257 to 2518 and then another 3015 for either 20 or 27 seconds depending on your healing build. There is a glyph the Glyph of Regrowth which increases healing of your regrowth spell by 20% if your Regrowth effect is still active on the target. The cast time of this spell is on a 2 second cast with a mana cost of 719 while in tree form base. The Idol of the Crescent Goddess from SSC off hydros would make this cast cost 65 less Mana which would take it to 673 mana if used.
Nourish Heals a friendly target for 1883 to 2187 and heals for an additional 20% if you have a rejuvenation regrowth or lifebloom effect active on the target. To increase this ability the 4 piece t7 is your nourish ability heals for an Additional 5% for each of your heal over time effects present on the target. What this means is on top of the 20% that could be on the target with rejuvenation regrowth and lifebloom present you could have an additional 20% on the heal. At This time I believe wild growth does not count toward this bonus. Wild Growth: Heals up to 5 friendly party or raid members within 15 yards of the target for 1442 over 7 sec.
Healing touch heals a friendly target for 3761 to 4440 with a 3 second cast timer. You can reduce this to 2.5 with talents and if you get the glyph you can reduce it to a 1.5 sec cast. What is the most effective healing rotation and what is the best for the mana. Let’s take a look at a few things and how they affect the druids healing. Regrowth it heals for just over that of Nourish yet it leaves a hot behind healing for an additional 3015. Nourish it heals for an additional 20% if a hot is already on the target. Regrowth heals for 20% more if you have the glyph. Assuming 1800 + heals the crit of your nourish with regrowth affect would be between 7600-8000. the regrowth will crit between 7600-8000 as well. Nourish non crit assuming a hot is present on the target is around 5k without a hot around 4k. With Talents you can spec 50% crit chance on your regrowth ability. Considering talent builds in the balance tree if you spec down to it you can get Natures Grace. What will Natures Grace do take .5 sec off your next spell cast after a crit. This would in a raid situation leave a druid with about 60-70% Chance to crit with regrowth reducing the cast time by .5 sec making the regrowth a base 1.5 second cast after a crit. As for nourish you have your base crit chance and it’s a 1.5 sec heal base which would be a 1 sec cast after a crit.
With this being said Nourish would seem to be a fair heal for a fair amount of mana but wait Nourish only costs about 47 mana less then regrowth if you use the ssc idol. HMM. 47 mana 70% chance to be the same cast speed and leaves an Additional 3015 hot on the person hands down at this point Regrowth seems to be the more affective heal.... <BUT>>> let’s take a look at our talents and see what we can do. Assuming you has 400 haste rating that would be 12% haste.
EVERY DRUID has Gift of the Earth mother let’s take a look at that talent right there Reduces GCD by 20% making the GCD 10 points off base. Haste can offset GCD if you have 400 haste that about 12% haste increase if you add 20% from GOTM
And 12% from 400 spell haste you will get 32%.
This same formula also tells me that I want to hit 32.79% which is 12.79% hast with all 5 points put into Gift Of The Earth Mother or GOTM. Also might want to look at the possibility of stacking enough haste that you can free points up out of GOTM

Trinkets... These are probably the most difficult thing to decide which is best to wear. Considering… I use one regen base trinket with large spirit considering spirit directly correlates into bonus healing for a druid. I Would also use one spell power trinket with chance on proc. I have four trinkets I like to use personally. [The Egg of Mortal Essence] increases spell power by 98 and your direct healing and heal over time spells have a chance to increase Haste by 505 for 10 sec. The other trinkets I like to use are [Darkmoon Card: Blue Dragon] equip 2% chance on spell cast to allow 100% mana regeneration to continue while casting. I also have been finding that the [Je'Tze's Bell] Each time you cast a spell there is a chance you will gain up to 100 mana per 5 for 15 sec Equip increases spell power by 106. This is actually a very nice trinket that I recently aquired and find it procs fairly frequently and gives a good amount of mana back Either get lucky or its about 13,000g on the ah if your lucky enough to see one. Last [Majestic Dragon Figurine]: each time you cast a spell you would gain 18 spirit for 10 sec stacking up to 10 times which means you have a constant 180 spirit and that breaks down to 31 bonus healing in tree form. On very long fights you could use two regen trinkets or one regen and one proc Trinket with spell power. As a druid while spell power is important having your mana regen is more important. There are two ways to gear haste and crit. Haste is better because you can negate GCD. My personal healing preference is rolling regrowths with occasional Nourish over regrowth just because of the idea of keeping a constant hot going on the entire raid between all of my abilities. Regrowth is very simply followed up with
Either a rejuvenation or lifebloom, Depending on damage being taken would call for different healing. If everybody in the raid gets dropped to let’s say 5% health a simple rejuvenation with rejuvenation glyph would heal for just as much as a single Lifebloom yet cost less mana assuming you’re using Idol of Awakening reducing mana cost by 106 while casting a rejuvenation yet on the tanks a rolling 3 stack of lifebloom is still to date one of the druids signature heals. Simply put for raid healing a simple rotation such as regrowth rejuvenation regrowth rejuvenation lifebloom tank Nourish Regrowth Rejuvenation with this rejuvenation affect being stacked its now bringing raid utility also making so if you go back with a nourish within 17 seconds now The nourish would do 30% more based on the 20% from having a hot active and your 4 piece t7 bonus of 5% per hot. Simply Put main heal as a druid especially with the wild growth nurf coming up would be the regrowth followed closely by Lifebloom because of constant stack on tanks and then rejuvenation and nourish. Nourish is a mana conservation tool. Rejuvenation is raid utility. Lifebloom is fast tick on tanks. Regrowth is all around general heal. Don’t forget once every 6 Seconds might as well push a wild growth off keeps the cool down going. Swift mend I use the glyph as well and would advise anybody to do so that it won’t consume the affect. Again swift mend is your oh no heal. Some druids like always Keeping it down. I must confess to me that is the last resort button to anybody who goes below 50% hp.

Finnaly I thank you for taking the time to read my post. I will not make promises but I have personally healed with this style of healing at HPS : 7503 Heals

Heals to friends : 1,680,701 (18 %) to foes : 0 HPS time : 3'44'' (99 % of presence) HPS : 7503

Dmg. In from all : 184,774 (3 %) from friends : 0 DTPS time : 3'42'' (98 % of presence) DTPS : 832

Regrowth 958 240 57 % 26 5386 356 1227 1420 65 % 9035 41 %

Wild Growth 255 371 15 % 367 695 813 11 %

Lifebloom 207 866 12 % 18 3446 190 547 1387 31 % 5612 39 %

Rejuvenation 201 014 12 % 95 2115 2198 30 %

Oh my, what can I say. I am a bit amazed how blizzard is handling this regen issue. I find it odd though, a few weeks back, there was a large thread about the OPness of replenish in raids, It was true, cuz lets face it, with replenish you can basically faceroll to a large degree, and without it, you are going to hurt on longer fights, and its a BIG difference.
So with that said, they decide to nerf oo5sr, and are giving more classes replenish..... (frost mages will have, but i believe its mute because i dont think mages raid frost? Correct me if im wrong >.<) And considering giving it to other classes, pushing it farther up the list of Must Haves.. I wonder how regen will be after patch, im hoping our mp5 will go up, and oo5sr going down probably a couple hundred, that wouldnt be bad.

Though, blizzard is usually pretty good about patches, they havent broken the game yet (some would disagree =P).

The problem Blizzard faces is that unlike most other raid buffs, Replenish is very definitely factored into balancing the specs that give it, and weakening Replenish significantly very much hurts the prospects of those specs in PvE. Blizzard is loathe to do this (and have stated that they have no problems assuming Replenish in 10/25 mans), especially given that two of the four specs are their classes only true full DPS spec (shadow and ret), another is very obviously the low man on its class's DPS totem pole (frost) and the others have been all over the board in terms of DPS (Survival, Destruction).

Right--giving Replenishment to more classes doesn't somehow exacerbate the problem; it's a temporary (potentially permanent) fix. Like pre-TBC consumables or any one of a number of other things in the history of the raid game that preclude simultaneous good balance between raids with X and raids without X, it has to be weakened, given to everyone, or taken away from anyone. Sure, giving it to everyone (by this I mean "to every raid") adds another entry on list of "required" things in a raid, but that's entirely consonant with the new WLK model of raid composition.

Adding it to healers would have made things so much easier rather than having to cater to a raid assuming having specific specs of specific classes there.
All raids need at least 2 healers so having each healer providing it allows them to always assume it is there while raiding and to balance regeneration easier for non raiding content.

We need to see how mana regen changes are actually implemented on the PTR. Only afterward will we be able to have a meaningful discussion about the mechanics.

That said, I have a prediction -- though I suspect some will say this is obvious. My guess is that Blizzard will link the proposed mana regen changes in Patch 3.1 to a modest reitemization of gear, including resto druid gear, dropping from Ulduar.

Most of us will be able to head into Ulduar without re-geming, re-enchanting, or re-glyphing. We'll encounter some mana intensive fights, due in part to changes in the mechanics of regenation as well as the fact that everyone will, initially, be "undergeared" for the new content.

Better gear will begin to drop, some of which will be healing leather with a modest change in overall itemization. I am guessing that the gear will typically have less spirit and more spellpower. We'll get more bang for our spells, but we will need to be careful not to spam our HoTs. (What? I need to pay attention to the HoT timer again?)

As is always the case, the fights will become easier to heal each week as more gear drops. Tanks will build more health and defensive stats, dps classes will do higher damage more quickly to shorten the fights, and our heals will hit harder, requiring less mana overall.

In short, I suspect our new gear will allow us to grow into the new mana regen model.

I believe Nourish will become very OP in 3.1. Heres why: Right now, in a raid setting i can get around 520 mp5 give or take diff buffs. Nourish costs 572 mana (specced moonglow, not in tranq. spirit). This means i can literrally spam this heal, for an incredibly long time, it literrally causes no dent in mana whatsoever. This i believe will b e our next go to heal. BC= LB, now=regrowth(up to debate) 3.1= nourish. This is also considering intensity will be buffed (im thinking a couple percent, but still it would still boost our mp5 considerablly)

I currently dont have 4pc set bonus, nor specced into tranq spirit (then making it 10% cheaper, sorry math evades me)

I dont condone spamming, but this heal will be a massive part of our healing. And an easy spell to use between casting hots. Fast cast time + Low mana cost + 4xxx-8xxx heal range = win.
In upcoming Ulduar we will get more gear, with more haste, lowering our GCD even more, making it even better than a HT glyphed direct heal.

But i am just speculating.