Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion - Page 153

Fallenangel · 12/07/09, 8:18 AM

Icehowl's knockback is a pretty bad example since the glyph is clearly just stealing healing from other sources, since there's a lot of time to heal up the raid. I am assuming you're talking about the wall throw he does just before a charge, as the other sweep can and should be outranged by melee. Not sure how a rejuv will help to stop knockback deaths since it's a single hit.
The glyph is nice for fights such as twins which has a aura and a a strong direct damage component (wrong-colored balls). In general it will show up on healing for aura fights simply because rejuv is 70-80% of the healing done. I find it most attractive for raid nukes such as Freya's tremor or exploding stars on Algalon.

MegaVolt · 12/07/09, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

Icehowl's knockback is a pretty bad example since the glyph is clearly just stealing healing from other sources, since there's a lot of time to heal up the raid. I am assuming you're talking about the wall throw he does just before a charge, as the other sweep can and should be outranged by melee. Not sure how a rejuv will help to stop knockback deaths since it's a single hit.
The glyph is nice for fights such as twins which has a aura and a a strong direct damage component (wrong-colored balls). In general it will show up on healing for aura fights simply because rejuv is 70-80% of the healing done. I find it most attractive for raid nukes such as Freya's tremor or exploding stars on Algalon.

Yes I was referring to the wall knockback thingy that hits the whole raid, not the frequent and actually pretty harmless melee knockback.
What I've seen in our hard mode fight is this: Icehowl will do the wall knockback 3 times. He will also use his ice breath a few more times. The thing is that usually he will use one ice breath right before he does his 2nd knockback. The first few times half the raid got killed and we wiped simply because there was no way to heal them up enough between the ice breath (if one or even both our Druid healers got caught in it) and the wall knockback which comes only seconds later. Then the 2nd Druid healer and me glyphed Rejuv and we were extra vigilant with pre-HoTing people before the ice breath. That solved the problem.
This only is a problem for the one knockback since the ice breath and wall knockback timers seem to collide there, leaving only little time for healing. All the other knockbacks usually don't have an ice breath right before them so there is no real danger. The one time where both happen in rapid succession however is quite dangerous and the glyph helps a lot in that situation.

Kirbie44 · 12/07/09, 5:28 PM

During Progression Twins, and our first 1-2 kills, this glyph saw about 5-10% of healing done. Everyone's heals were weaker, coming in 226 and limited 232-245 gear, and slower (haste) and etc. So the less overall HPS done by all healers, this glyph increased my HPS and EHPS by quite a bit, with about 95% Effective Healing (no overheal).

From our first Twins kill:
Running Spell - EHealing - % of total - Total Healing - % Overheal

(+) Rejuvenation 278,473 9.7% 317,040 12.7%

Latest Twins kill:

(+) Rejuvenation 39,276 1.5% 42,216 6.9%

From close to 10% healing down to only 1.5% healing. Maybe that 10% healing helped save people from dying from the DoT the first kill. It helps when a lot of damage is being taken. It also proved a giant help on IC Hardmode during it's progression days, especially when we 5 healed it on our first kill. But, again, as more healing output comes, the less effective this glyph becomes, but its value is still rather high when it does get used.

grimtage · 12/08/09, 8:26 AM

Originally Posted by MegaVolt

He will also use his ice breath a few more times. The thing is that usually he will use one ice breath right before he does his 2nd knockback.
...
In hard mode guild progression I find the glyph at about 4% of my healing done

He will always use a breath just before the 2nd and 3rd knockback. Just get a paladin to spec into improved BoF (the thing that removes the stun) and just remove it before it does much damage on the second breath after a stun. The paladin can literally make a macro to cast BoF on the boss' target.

I had no idea people were getting these numbers from that Glyph. That's an amazing glyph I've been missing out on if the numbers are true. The best thing about it is the healing is almost always not overheal. The best I've ever had it do is 1% of my healing and that was on Twins (we run with 2-3 rdruids and a holy priest on raid)

Kirbie44 · 12/08/09, 9:10 AM

Our raid consists of me, and 2 holy priests during our progression and first few Twins kills. (as raid healers) That is the reason you could be seeing bigger numbers from me. With one other druid instead of a holy priest, you could expect the same number, but the 3rd tree would literally almost always be "overhotting" one of the other two.

Queue · 12/08/09, 5:07 PM

Personally I love the glyph of rapid rejuv. Not because I think it's going to be the be all end all of pve resto, but because it gives us a little more style flexibility. As someone mentioned, the glyph gives us an option of focus over spread. And it's just that... an option.

I'll try it out for a while. I'll glyph rapid rejuv + rejuv + swiftmend glyphs, and I'm betting it'll be nice in those "HO SHIT'S GOING DOWN" situations.

I feel like as a druid, a lot of our job is non-reactive healing, which can be pretty boring. You sit there and rejuv as much of the raid as you can hit at once (see twins, 25h), making tanks and people you can predict will get hit (melee in a lot of fights) a priority. Heck, I've spec'd into revitalize and I make kitties, DK's, and rogues a priority, just for the minor dps increase.

The rapid rejuv + rejuv glyph combination gives us an option for a more active style of play. I'm not sure yet how valid it will actually be, or how common the situations it applies to will be. But I want to try it, because it sounds exciting. In 25 mans we almost always run with 2 trees, and it seems like having one of each "style" could be very nice.

For that matter... I wonder how much of a dps boost it is to have revitalize proc'ing more often. Does anyone know the ICD on that? or the proc rate? Will a rejuv tic spacing of 2 sec over 3 mean a 30% increase in the procs of revitalize? Has this been discussed already and I missed it?

Queue · 12/08/09, 5:11 PM

Originally Posted by grimtage

About Rejuv glyph: it just seems lackluster, if it made the rejuv crit instead of adding an extra heal whenever the target was under 50%, I'd probably use it but whenever I've had it on and looked at deathlogs that had rejuvs tick on them just before dying, the Glyph of Rejuvenation has very rarely proc'd before the person has died, kinda defeats the purpose in having it if it takes that long to proc imo.

This is why I feel the combination of rejuv and rapid rejuv could be very strong. The reduced time for the tic means that it could actually hit even a couple of times before 50%, especially if several people are low and therefor direct heals are being directed elsewhere for a few seconds. I feel this glyph combination could easily save someone's life.

• Hamlet · 12/08/09, 5:20 PM

You won't proc any more Revitalize with the Glyph than without--same number of total Rejuv ticks in either case.

Queue · 12/08/09, 5:43 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

You won't proc any more Revitalize with the Glyph than without--same number of total Rejuv ticks in either case.

o.O No. I'm not usually this blunt, but you are wrong.

Say I am single target healing a rogue for 60 seconds. Let's say with the glyph, I have a 12 second rejuv. One tick every 2 seconds, 6 ticks per rejuv. The targets gets 30 chances for the revitalize proc (if I time perfectly, and never lose the last tick).

If I don't have the glyph, I have an 18 second rejuv. One tick every 3 seconds, 6 ticks per rejuv. The target gets 20 chances for the revitalize proc.

30 chances per minute > 20 chances per minute.

Edit - now... if you are simply spamming rejuv on the entire raid with as much uptime as possible, I suppose you're correct. The number of total rejuv procs for the whole raid will be about the same. But that's usually an unrealistic situation, because there aren't that many fights where the entire raid is taking constant damage. Also, it's assuming that the benefits of revitalize are equal for all classes, and they're most definitely not.

In reality, when the whole raid isn't taking constant damage, I'm going to make it a minor priority (aka when I really don't have anything else pressing to do) to keep rejuv up specifically on rogues, kitties, and dk's. That's where it will make a difference. 100% uptime on those classes w/glyph >>> 100% uptime on those classes w/o glyph.

• Hamlet · 12/08/09, 5:48 PM

Originally Posted by Queue

o.O No. I'm not usually this blunt, but you are wrong.

Say I am single target healing a rogue for 60 seconds. Let's say with the glyph, I have a 12 second rejuv. One tick every 2 seconds, 6 ticks per rejuv. The targets gets 30 chances for the revitalize proc (if I time perfectly, and never lose the last tick).

If I don't have the glyph, I have an 18 second rejuv. One tick every 3 seconds, 6 ticks per rejuv. The target gets 20 chances for the revitalize proc.

30 chances per minute > 20 chances per minute.

Yes, but you have correspondingly fewer procs on someone else then. You'll still generate 6 chances to proc Revitalize every time you click Rejuv, once per GCD.

Queue · 12/08/09, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Yes, but you have correspondingly fewer procs on someone else then. You'll still generate 6 chances to proc Revitalize every time you click Rejuv, once per GCD.

Yeah, see my edit in the last post. I'm saying the potential dps increase is definitely not just outright dismissible just because a single gcd will still net result the same number of procs.

Carnathagia · 12/08/09, 6:02 PM

The total number of rejuvenations you can have on the raid is equal to the duration of your rejuvenation with the glyph, assuming a 1 sec GCD. If you are only hotting 10 people, then you will have more ticks over time, resulting in more chances for revitalize procs. When the amount of people you are hotting equals or exceeds the duration, your total number of ticks is constant.

MegaVolt · 12/08/09, 6:39 PM

Originally Posted by Carnathagia

The total number of rejuvenations you can have on the raid is equal to the duration of your rejuvenation with the glyph, assuming a 1 sec GCD. If you are only hotting 10 people, then you will have more ticks over time, resulting in more chances for revitalize procs. When the amount of people you are hotting equals or exceeds the duration, your total number of ticks is constant.

This is correct.
It is just pointless to look at a single target and check for procs on that one. You will never only heal one target as Druid or you are doing something seriously wrong.
If Rejuvenation ticks faster then you will have fewer active on the raid. Each one will produce procs faster but since there are overall less Rejuvenations ticking there are also fewer raid members that benefit from a proc.

The actually relevant number here is the amount of procs per cast. And that number is in no way changed by the Glyph of Swift Rejuvenation.

Queue · 12/08/09, 7:00 PM

Originally Posted by MegaVolt

The actually relevant number here is the amount of procs per cast.

I completely disagree.

Originally Posted by MegaVolt

This is correct.
It is just pointless to look at a single target and check for procs on that one. You will never only heal one target as Druid or you are doing something seriously wrong.

This is correct. However, it's completely reasonable to assume that you might have near 100% uptime on several targets - especially melee.

You guys are completely ignoring my point. I'm not saying that constant rejuv spam is going to net more revitalize procs. I'm saying that constant rejuv uptime on SPECIFIC TARGETS is going to increase the procs on THOSE TARGETS.

I'm also saying that as a resto druid, we do concentrate heals on those targets already, and if you glyph rapid rejuv, there will be a dps increase for them if you continue to prioritize the melee, who benefit most from revitalize.

Fallenangel · 12/08/09, 8:34 PM

Revitalize is only a DPS boost for a few classes - rogues and feral druids for sure, and possibly DKs and warriors (not too familiar with rage/DR situation). Since there aren't typically that many targets, keeping a rejuv on someone for the sake of DPS boost will be better with the glyph. You will spend more GCDs getting that boost, so the DPCT is the same with or without the glyph.
This is a rather minor benefit most likely, although I think no one (unless they tried it on the PTR anyway) can really understand what it means for rejuv to go from 3s ticks to 2s without hands-on experience. We're talking about, in this case, extra 50% procs within a given time frame which might be useful for burst damage situations.
Don't really see myself parting from WG, so the other 2 will be taken from the 2 rejuv ones and SM. Probably start without SM since the 2 rejuv glyph interacting sounds interesting.