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Old 12/20/09, 11:08 PM   #2371
MegaVolt
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Turalyon (EU)
What about replacing Nourish completely by Regrowth?
The direct heal of a glyphed Regrowth should be higher than an untalented (ET) and unglyphed Nourish. If Regrowth is a viable go-to heal in case of an emergency (of course not for "real" tank healing) it wouldn't hurt as much to spec out of ET.

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Old 12/20/09, 11:27 PM   #2372
Tebasile
Glass Joe
 
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Human Priest
 
Icecrown
Originally Posted by Iamamras View Post

P.s is it just me or is the [Idol of the Black Willow] just almost the same as the one we already have [Idol of Flaring Growth].
Black Willow = 256 SP once you get it up and keep it up, Flaring = 234

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Old 12/21/09, 7:04 AM   #2373
wileyclaw
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Stormreaver
3) Give up 2 points from Living Spirit. I left this out of my big post, but I think it might be the best option. 2 points of LS adds maybe 20 spellpower at most, so by anyone's accounting is less valuable than CF. It adds a decent (but not enormous) amount of regen as well--given the ease with which most of us are sacrificing Regen for stronger heals, I don't think that's going to bother anyone too much.
I'm going to try this out for our ICC raid tomorrow night. I think that its a good place to sacrifice 2 talent points for the benefit of picking up ET for a stronger Nourish.

I don't have any mana issues now, so I doubt the loss in regen will make that big of a difference.

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Old 12/21/09, 8:34 AM   #2374
Iamamras
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
<MCO>
Shadowsong (EU)
Black Willow = 256 SP once you get it up and keep it up, Flaring = 234

Yes but paying 30 frost emblems for 22 spellpower is kinda the last item i want

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Old 12/21/09, 8:57 AM   #2375
Fallenangel
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Chromaggus (EU)
It's also a very safe buy - you won't find upgrades to this slot in ICC.
Personally I'm saving my badges for now, content is too easy and badges are still scarce. The value of 4T10 is quite questionable, although picking up the 2 haste pieces is probably a decent purchase as well.

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Old 12/21/09, 9:48 AM   #2376
Demagogue
Glass Joe
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Sen'jin
The two haste pieces, and if you're in a case where you have a weak trinket the three of those are all relatively quick and easy grabs.

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Old 12/21/09, 11:22 AM   #2377
Kirbie44
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Magtheridon
Originally Posted by Fallenangel View Post
It's also a very safe buy - you won't find upgrades to this slot in ICC.
Personally I'm saving my badges for now, content is too easy and badges are still scarce. The value of 4T10 is quite questionable, although picking up the 2 haste pieces is probably a decent purchase as well.
It is if you have broken 4PC T9 already. Plug numbers into Wrath Calcs and how much healing the 2PC T10 does. You read the bonus and think "wow, that really looks good!". Then you actually see the numbers. It was about a 3.3% healing upgrade to WG alone, if I would have replaced my gloves and shoulders with T10, 251.

Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity.

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Old 12/21/09, 11:41 AM   #2378
Fallenangel
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Chromaggus (EU)
Are you saying 2T10 is bad cause it breaks 4T9? I tend to agree, and I think 4T9 will not be replaced in 5X1 fights at all.
Thing is that while Rejuv healing tends to vary a lot from fight to fight, WG hovers around the 20-25% mark. The added stats from wearing 2 277 items plus the set bonus may outperform 4T9 when healing is more evened out.
In the end, you have the buy SOMETHING. The idol is good because it's a sure bet, a clear upgrade that won't be replaced. [Belt of Petrified Ivy] is a very good choice if you're keeping 4T9. Trinket on the other hand is weak if you're sporting 2 solaces - which was the clear go-to item from the ToC loot lists before 3.2 was released (it's nearly always wise to go for the trinkets because you have 2).
Like I said, I don't feel particularly inclined to buy anything right now. Too many open questions - how useful will 4T9 continue to be? Did they really not fix 4T10 (and yes, I consider a POM-like rejuv to be a bug)? What slots did you manage to upgrade to 264 before the hardmodes are out? These will affect what pieces give the best upgrade when you need it.

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Old 12/21/09, 1:03 PM   #2379
Kirbie44
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Night Elf Druid
 
Magtheridon
Originally Posted by Fallenangel View Post
Are you saying 2T10 is bad cause it breaks 4T9? I tend to agree, and I think 4T9 will not be replaced in 5X1 fights at all.
Thing is that while Rejuv healing tends to vary a lot from fight to fight, WG hovers around the 20-25% mark. The added stats from wearing 2 277 items plus the set bonus may outperform 4T9 when healing is more evened out.
In the end, you have the buy SOMETHING. The idol is good because it's a sure bet, a clear upgrade that won't be replaced. [Belt of Petrified Ivy] is a very good choice if you're keeping 4T9. Trinket on the other hand is weak if you're sporting 2 solaces - which was the clear go-to item from the ToC loot lists before 3.2 was released (it's nearly always wise to go for the trinkets because you have 2).
Like I said, I don't feel particularly inclined to buy anything right now. Too many open questions - how useful will 4T9 continue to be? Did they really not fix 4T10 (and yes, I consider a POM-like rejuv to be a bug)? What slots did you manage to upgrade to 264 before the hardmodes are out? These will affect what pieces give the best upgrade when you need it.
I was also looking into more Haste/Crit items instead of spirit. It would lower my SP by a very little bit, and with 2x Solace, the regen is not an issue. I mentioned that I was keeping 4PC T9, so the extra boost in crit is more than enough to make up for Spirit loss. As for badges, I'll say it again. 310 Badges to get 4PC T10 without a major piece such as the Chest/Helm/Leggings. I also suggest on holding on badges before you make the move to T10. I wouldn't buy the first piece you get, because it may just be aweful, and you would just go with 5PC random drops, and only 2PC Haste T10.

Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity.

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Old 12/21/09, 1:34 PM   #2380
Mahalo
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Arygos
Originally Posted by MegaVolt View Post
So with the Rejuv/RG build you would value Revitaliz higher than Living Seed?

The problem we had on Saurfang was that if we get like 6 or more marks and Druids "buffer" then healing becomes chaotic, some people start to be overhealed and others die. Assigning fixed targets to individual healers solved that problem for us. Yes, it does not play towards a Druids strength ... but it was the only way to avoid confusion and it worked quite well.
With all due respect, if you have 6 marks on Saurfang, healing is the least of your raid's issues. You need to make sure that you have ranged focusing and kiting effectively on the adds and if there's a melee kill target designated, they need to stunlock it quickly. We killed Saurfang with 3 marks and we are hardly a bleeding-edge guild. Our first few attempts we got to 5 marks and it was impossible to heal through. So if you execute the strategy correctly, the healing should be a lot easier.

For a normal attempt my role in that fight is to rapid rejuv each boiling blood target and keep HOTs up on the tanks to smooth damage. I will rotate wild growth in on the tanks to chip in with melee.

As for the current debate re specs, I just took a CF and a non-CF build and swap between them as needed. I need to play around with my glyphs a bit, though. I really like the Battlemaster trinket idea as a way to cheaply get up to the haste cap - excellent point that I'll be looking into.

EDIT - re: belts (not to derail with a gear discussion in the wrong thread too much) I was dead sold on Petrified Ivy until I glimpsed at the loot tables in ICC - there are several different belt options it seems in both 10s and 25s - one of which I snagged last night to replace the Belt of the Eternal. I haven't seen a ton of cloak upgrades in the loot lists (I could just be blind, too) but my biggest gap is an offset leg slot that I'll be replacing with T10 as statistically it's a huge upgrade.

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Old 12/21/09, 2:26 PM   #2381
Kirbie44
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Magtheridon
Originally Posted by Mahalo View Post
With all due respect, if you have 6 marks on Saurfang, healing is the least of your raid's issues. You need to make sure that you have ranged focusing and kiting effectively on the adds and if there's a melee kill target designated, they need to stunlock it quickly. We killed Saurfang with 3 marks and we are hardly a bleeding-edge guild. Our first few attempts we got to 5 marks and it was impossible to heal through. So if you execute the strategy correctly, the healing should be a lot easier.
To the contrary. The healers job is 2 things. Keep up the raid from regular boss mechanics, IE - Damage. The second is to pick up other players mistakes, IE - Void zones and fires and add aggro etc. There are preventative measures of not getting 6 marks, like increased DPS, increase range spread, more disc priests, etc. BUT 6 marks does make healing the biggest of the raids issue. One of them dies - 2 million health. More Mark uptime etc.

If all strategies are executed correctly, content would be farm from day zero. My guild got 7 marks our first Saurfang Pull, and 6 marks and like 85 energy on our 2nd kill. My guild is great, we have a lot of strong players and strategies. We have had insanity, and not by luck, but more than a few times. I lost our Immortality run myself on Faction Champions, the only person dieing the entire instance. I am not bragging my guild up, I am just saying even well progressed guilds make mistakes and don't execute strategies 100% efficiently. It is the whole raids job to make up for inefficiency, but more often than not, it is put on the healers in the end to keep up, like 2 mistress's or a long volcano up-time, or two black orbs in the white group, etc.

In situations like this, it is NOT our fault that we would wipe, but we CAN prevent it by stepping it up. If you get 7-8 marks here, or even more than that, no it is not ideal and not good, but at that moment in time, healing is the greatest of the raid's issues. It will continue to be this way until the end of the expansion.

Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity.

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Old 12/21/09, 2:55 PM   #2382
FlynxBB
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by Fallenangel View Post
14/0/57 is certainly the most flexible spec as it gives you NG and possibly ET. I'd drop 1 point from Living Spirit to fill up Relitalize thought, as it's only a lose of ~10SP and regen that is more than made up by Revitalize. If I had to pick one resto spec it would probably be that, depending on the actual cost of CF in terms of spellpower as carebear said. If you're going for 2 resto specs, however, there's little reason not to go with the CF and 11/0/60.
Another little addressed issue is 4T9. In aura fights, I'm seeing this as worth an excess of 400SP. Regen aside, a 4T9 setup with crit/haste items where available and NP over Living Spirit should prove to be hard to replace on 5X1 fights.

As for paladins and Saurfang, Hand of Reckoning - Spell - World of Warcraft works wonders once the beasts get close to one of the ranged.

I agree that the value of 4T9 has been little addressed. I, like many others, chose to lose 4T9 in order to reach the new haste soft-cap using a 18/0/53 build. I'm particularly interested in the prioritization of early ICC gear upgrades with respect to re-gaining 4T9 vs. 14/0/57. Hamlet's spreadsheet and my past combat logs (pre-3,2 with 4T9) confirms that re-gaining 4T9 (at least for my past healing roles) significantly outweighs the buffs to Nourish from ET, but 14/0/57 also brings a significant raid buff, which is difficult to compare & contrast. My gut says that re-gaining 4T9 should be my 1st priority... anyone else give some thought to this?

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Old 12/21/09, 3:31 PM   #2383
Mahalo
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Arygos
Originally Posted by Kirbie44 View Post
To the contrary. The healers job is 2 things. Keep up the raid from regular boss mechanics, IE - Damage. The second is to pick up other players mistakes, IE - Void zones and fires and add aggro etc. There are preventative measures of not getting 6 marks, like increased DPS, increase range spread, more disc priests, etc. BUT 6 marks does make healing the biggest of the raids issue. One of them dies - 2 million health. More Mark uptime etc.

If all strategies are executed correctly, content would be farm from day zero. My guild got 7 marks our first Saurfang Pull, and 6 marks and like 85 energy on our 2nd kill. My guild is great, we have a lot of strong players and strategies. We have had insanity, and not by luck, but more than a few times. I lost our Immortality run myself on Faction Champions, the only person dieing the entire instance. I am not bragging my guild up, I am just saying even well progressed guilds make mistakes and don't execute strategies 100% efficiently. It is the whole raids job to make up for inefficiency, but more often than not, it is put on the healers in the end to keep up, like 2 mistress's or a long volcano up-time, or two black orbs in the white group, etc.

In situations like this, it is NOT our fault that we would wipe, but we CAN prevent it by stepping it up. If you get 7-8 marks here, or even more than that, no it is not ideal and not good, but at that moment in time, healing is the greatest of the raid's issues. It will continue to be this way until the end of the expansion.
I see your point entirely, but coming from a guild that got its face raped by the encounter week 1 with an average of 5 marks and then stomped all over it in 2 attempts week 2 with a 3 mark kill, there was such a difference made by ranged not getting hit by the adds / mobs being kited properly that the extra healing required by Mark was not needed. Great healers can certainly give you an edge in a fight where you're not executing (and trust me, as a member of a guild that made no attempts into deep heroic ToC25 I don't really consider us top-end executors but rather fun-loving consumers of content), but the Mark mechanic is one that really penalizes healing marked targets. As a healer my job in that fight is to maximize my throughput while limiting whatever incidental damage I can get by drawing blood beast aggro and not running away from them properly. The healing component of the fight is pretty straightforward for a tree - HoT the DoT and stack the tanks. True you can brute-force the fight by just healing through marks, but there's a reason you get an achievement for killing him in under 5, because the primary mechanic of how the fight gets out of control is due to poor management of Saurfang's energy.

All guilds progress through mistakes - the last thing I'm doing is lambasting that. But the original question was how to handle the massive amount of healing in the Saurfang encounter when you're at 6+ marks, and the honest answer there is to have your ranged DPS and healers get the hell out of the way of those damn beasts, not "heal through it", although you certainly can do so. I just don't want to see the guy beat up and rip apart his spec / gear when what's really killing his raid is a DPS who is getting lit up by blood beasts, creating quicker marks, healing Saurfang more, and making a healer's life miserable.

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Old 12/21/09, 5:36 PM   #2384
MegaVolt
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by Fallenangel View Post
[Belt of Petrified Ivy] is a very good choice if you're keeping 4T9.
Why would I want that belt over [Item not found!]?

@Mahalo:
I know that my guild is doing things wrong by getting so many marks. But it's just the way it is ... I can do nothing more but not get hit by fiends which is what I do. If others get hit there is nothing I can do about it so I have to make the best out of the situation.
We have a few slacking dps and people always get hit. It just happens and if we wouldn't bring the ones that get hit to the raid then we wouldn't be able to field a team for 25mans.
I guess over the next few weeks we will get less and less marks. But for now I as healer simply have to find a way to deal with 6 of them. And it is kind of working ... we one shotted him this week, despite 6 marks (by letting one guy with a mark die on purpose before his enrage hits).

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Old 12/21/09, 5:58 PM   #2385
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by MegaVolt View Post
Why would I want that belt over [Item not found!]?
There's leather version: Professor's Bloodied Smock - Items - Sigrie ; you shouldn't fight over the cloth one.

e: ok, just noticed that was a badge item. In that case, "there's a leather drop you don't have to compete for, so you probably shouldn't spend precious badges on that."

Last edited by Hamlet : 12/21/09 at 6:06 PM.


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