Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion - Page 17

Lemanakmelo · 01/28/09, 8:24 AM

Originally Posted by druicifer

Can anyone confirm this? I'm going to live test it right now.

Try testing on druids and non-druids. A couple times I've tested it seemed that druid tanks didn't get the effect of my thorns but their own, but other classes got my thorns.

mesullivan · 01/28/09, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by druicifer

Assuming ~2000 SP, My hots tick for about 1200/sec 1800/3sec 600/sec and I have no idea what regrowth ticks for 8) Lets say about 800/tick ? that's a grand total of 1200 + 600 + 600 + 400 = 2800 HPS.

What's that fourth HoT there? Wild Growth? 600 seems like a pretty big tick for WG.

Pownstaronfizz · 01/28/09, 11:46 AM

[quote=Sioned;1074562]

With 5/5 GotEm, you would need 655 haste rating to get to the 1.0 GCD.

Celestial Focus gives you 98 more.
Imp Moonkin Aura gives you 98 more.
Wrath of Air Totem gives you 163 more.
+ However much haste you have from gear.

[quote]

Was wondering where you got your numbers?
"32.79 haste rating increases your haste by 1%. If you have Gift of the Earthmother, you need 15.38% haste to get to a 1 second global cooldown, or 505 haste rating. Wrath of Air totem provides 5% haste and improved Moonkin aura provides 3% haste."
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t37578-restoration_itemization/

Was a bit confused with that, and I spec'd into Cel. Focus yesterday and it took .03 seconds off which seems a little low for 98 haste.

Was wondering if anyone had the forumla figured:
32.79 haste rating increases your haste by 1% which equals .0X seconds off of a cast.

Any imput will be appreciated!

Akomos · 01/28/09, 12:27 PM

600 is a perfectly reasonable tick for WG in decent gear.

Vazu · 01/28/09, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Sioned

In those cases, our long hots won't count for much and you're almost stuck spamming either RG or Nourish at full speed. It is in this situation I was contemplating if Living Seed or if Celestial Focus would be better. Living Seed "effectively" only works on RG whereas CF works on both.

I guess my main question was is the haste wasted since I'm at a haste soft-cap already? I currently have 325 Haste Rating. Has anyone here ever been in that situation and was wishing that they got an extra RG or Nourish off?

If you aren't healing with glyphed Regrowth (talented 5/5) exclusively as your main heal, Living Seed is worthless. You lose 50% crit rating every single time you cast Nourish. The math isn't all the complicated. The more you cast Nourish, the less effective Living Seed as a talent is for you personally. To be honest, it's not a great talent and you will always get more mileage out of CF instead.

Akomos · 01/28/09, 1:03 PM

I can not imagine 3% haste making much difference, ever. Yes, technically it would be 3% throughput if you were chain-casting the whole time, but that's a damn rare case. Even so, the times when 3% throughput are going to save the day are rare, to say the least.

OTOH, times when you absolutely need to bust throughput as fast as possible -- Patch or Maexxna enrages, for instance -- LS is amazing with spammed glyphed Imp Regrowth. Yeah it's inefficient, and yeah it's not something you do often. But in my experience, having the option to do so is worth far more than a passive 3% haste could ever aspire to be.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that CF is an awful talent or that 3% haste is a useless thing to have. LS, however, is another tool in our toolbox. As a healer, I'd rather take that than a trivial passive boost.

Zoltair · 01/28/09, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Pownstaronfizz

Originally Posted by Sioned

With 5/5 GotEm, you would need 655 haste rating to get to the 1.0 GCD.

Celestial Focus gives you 98 more.
Imp Moonkin Aura gives you 98 more.
Wrath of Air Totem gives you 163 more.
+ However much haste you have from gear.

Was wondering where you got your numbers?
"32.79 haste rating increases your haste by 1%. If you have Gift of the Earthmother, you need 15.38% haste to get to a 1 second global cooldown, or 505 haste rating. Wrath of Air totem provides 5% haste and improved Moonkin aura provides 3% haste."
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t37578-restoration_itemization/

Was a bit confused with that, and I spec'd into Cel. Focus yesterday and it took .03 seconds off which seems a little low for 98 haste.

Was wondering if anyone had the forumla figured:
32.79 haste rating increases your haste by 1% which equals .0X seconds off of a cast.

Any imput will be appreciated!

Couple of things here:

First off, the poster you are quoting has incorrect information. You cannot think of CF, Moonkin Aura, or Wrath of Air Totem as having Haste Rating Values. These values will change based upon what buffs and talents you have. Unlike your gear, CF and Buffs are mutiplicative NOT additive. This can be somewhat confusing at first.

Say for example you have 12% Haste from your gear and you spec 3/3 CF equaling an additional 3% Haste. At first you would think this equals 15% Haste... WRONG. It actually equals 15.36% Haste (assuming no other buffs or talents).

Base Cast Time / (Haste%Gear*Talent*Buff*Buff*etc) = New Cast Time
Base Cast Time / (112%*103%) = New Cast Time
Base Cast Time / (1.12*1.03) = New Cast Time
Base Cast Time / (1.1536) = New Cast Time

Assume 2 sec Regrowth / 1.1536 = ~1.73 sec New Cast Time... So each 1% (cumulative... NOT Haste rating alone) shaves off ~.0175 off a 2 sec cast. May seem like a little but it adds up quickly.

This scales with each cast length and buff/talent.

Edit: changed term from Talents to CF for clarification not to include GotEM as a mutiplicative action.

Pownstaronfizz · 01/28/09, 2:52 PM

Wow, thank you. That was an amazing post. Zoltair is the man

To the person that said 3 points in CF wasn't worth it over having 3 points in living seed, the way I actually spec'd was 3/5 GotEM since I'm well over the 1.0 GCD timer and then put only 1 point into Living Seed. The way I think of it, if it has 33% chance to proc (which is only with that one point in it) per crit. It last 15 seconds. In 15 seconds with the haste provided, I can cast at most 10 Regrowths (spamming which is rare), so lets drop the number to 6. I have a 50% chance to crit, so drop the number to 3. I have three chances to proc living seed which is (3 chances at a 33% proc rate) close to having one up for most of the time. Perhaps I'm just looking at it wrong, but I thought it made sense.

Fallenangel · 01/28/09, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by Akomos

I can not imagine 3% haste making much difference, ever. Yes, technically it would be 3% throughput if you were chain-casting the whole time, but that's a damn rare case. Even so, the times when 3% throughput are going to save the day are rare, to say the least.

OTOH, times when you absolutely need to bust throughput as fast as possible -- Patch or Maexxna enrages, for instance -- LS is amazing with spammed glyphed Imp Regrowth. Yeah it's inefficient, and yeah it's not something you do often. But in my experience, having the option to do so is worth far more than a passive 3% haste could ever aspire to be.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that CF is an awful talent or that 3% haste is a useless thing to have. LS, however, is another tool in our toolbox. As a healer, I'd rather take that than a trivial passive boost.

Why not spec both? 18/0/53 can easily accommodate LS. Until they fix tranquil spirit, crit scaling and/or replenish, there is little reason not to pick both of them.

@vazu: do you really prefer 2 points in brambles over emp touch? I think emp touch is getting such a bad rep and I'm not sure why. Yes, we don't cast HT often, but if we do we want it to hit big. According to wowiki, it bumps the coefficient of HT from 1.6 to 2.2 (I felt like I was getting a higher coefficient in my short sample). With end-game gear, this is at least 1.5k boost. I'd say that's worth it over some thorns damage at least

Fallenangel · 01/28/09, 2:57 PM

Originally Posted by Pownstaronfizz

Wow, thank you. That was an amazing post. Zoltair is the man

To the person that said 3 points in CF wasn't worth it over having 3 points in living seed, the way I actually spec'd was 3/5 GotEM since I'm well over the 1.0 GCD timer and then put only 1 point into Living Seed. The way I think of it, if it has 33% chance to proc (which is only with that one point in it) per crit. It last 15 seconds. In 15 seconds with the haste provided, I can cast at most 10 Regrowths (spamming which is rare), so lets drop the number to 6. I have a 50% chance to crit, so drop the number to 3. I have three chances to proc living seed which is (3 chances at a 33% proc rate) close to having one up for most of the time. Perhaps I'm just looking at it wrong, but I thought it made sense.

It only lasts 15 seconds if your target doesn't actually get it by anything. If your tank can dodge for 15 seconds straight, consider yourself pretty lucky.
Yes, LS does have diminishing returns on points 2 and 3 if you spam it. But if you're regrowth spamming, you probably want every bit of healing you can get.

Rijndael · 01/28/09, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

Why not spec both? 18/0/53 can easily accommodate LS. Until they fix tranquil spirit, crit scaling and/or replenish, there is little reason not to pick both of them.

I made a post about this already, but perhaps I am missing something. What exactly is wrong with Replenish? Yes I know Ghostcrawler said it is bad, I mean aside from that

. For me it returns more mana raidwide than talents like improved blessing of wisdom which holy paladins generally take, along with a small dps gain for rogues/death knights/feral druids.

Fallenangel · 01/28/09, 3:25 PM

Two problems:
1. On that post you said you spammed rejuv. Rejuv is a bad raid healing spell in 25 men raids since it'll likely be healed over. It only shines in specific circumstances like damage aura fights (sapphiron, vortex healing).
2. Holy pally 53/0/18 build doesn't have very attractive options besides imp BoW.

Sioned · 01/28/09, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Zoltair

Couple of things here:

First off, the poster you are quoting has incorrect information. You cannot think of CF, Moonkin Aura, or Wrath of Air Totem as having Haste Rating Values. These values will change based upon what buffs and talents you have. Unlike your gear, Talents and Buffs are mutiplicative NOT additive.

Ahh, thanks for the clarification. I got my numbers from W4lker's post on wowhead: Gift of the Earthmother - Spell - World of Warcraft

I did not know the talent was applied mutiplicatively.

So at 5/5 GotEM and 3/3 CF with 325 haste rating, what is my GCD and cast time on Regrowth and Nourish?

Rijndael · 01/28/09, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

Two problems:
1. On that post you said you spammed rejuv. Rejuv is a bad raid healing spell in 25 men raids since it'll likely be healed over. It only shines in specific circumstances like damage aura fights (sapphiron, vortex healing).
2. Holy pally 53/0/18 build doesn't have very attractive options besides imp BoW.

Re: 1. I don't understand your logic. Almost every good healing spell has a lot of overheal. This is true of chain heal, this is true of holy light, and it's certainly true of every hot druids cast (even though a lot of overheal doesn't show up on the meter tools like WWS). The fact is, if you need to provide more HPS to the raid than a 6 second Wild Growth can provide your only real option as a druid is to proactively stack hots, regardless of mana cost. Rejuv is the best hot for this purpose because it's efficient, lasts a long time, and can be applied to one person per second. In 25 man runs these days Rejuv does 40-50% of my healing, and I am more than keeping up with resto shamans and holy priests (in fact in many fights it's very easy to do well on meters as a druid). Rejuv isn't bad, it's awesome, especially with the mana reduction idol.

Re: 2. The fact that people argue where to put the last few points in a resto druid build shows that there isn't a single dominant spec, and most of the choices are marginal (with the exception of celestial focus if you are under the softcap). In other words, druids face the same situation as holy paladins -- there aren't really very good places for the last few points. It's down to some combination of 3% crit on direct heals, 3% haste on direct heals, 1-3% healing (living seed), minor raidwide mp5/energy/runic power boost, or powering up healing touch (which most druids rarely use).

If you are hot heavy and at soft cap, it seems living seed and the small raidwide boost is what you would take.

Ynox · 01/28/09, 4:36 PM

Fallen Angel Healing is not about topping the meters, Healing is about having everyones life toped. Rej is super for this, because sustained dmg income is healed sustained and spike dmg income is healed with swiftmend. In every Fight situatin where you have to expect high spiky raid dmg you should have a raid full with RJ, example Malygos P2 when changing the Bubbles. Or Kel'Thuzad throw it on the healers for Frosttombs, in addition if you have replenish the have more mana to waste on what ever needs heal or will need heal. In addition RJ will often heal the aoe Frost dmg. With the RJ idol you can heal with RJ while almost loosing no mana.

And RJ does heal a lot more now than before the 6 sec cd on WG, you heal the targets CoH cant anymore. And if you talk to your healing mates, they will configure their Grid to see your hots, and wont overheal them.

Rej is the most mana efficient Heal for raid heal, and when other healers do the job you dont need to do, then you got to many healers with you. You could try to dps. 2k dps is more than useless.

Even if i wrote on the top that Healing is not about topping the meters, it is easy to top the meters as a heal druid.