The way that the changes currently look, I am pretty sure that I will be replacing my Regrowth glyph with the Nourish glyph. With Regrowth having 25% less crit, it loses a lot of its HPS, as a generous portion of the throughput was due to the large cast-time reduction given by crits. It simply won't be as good of a spell. So, I will say goodbye to the 20% bonus for casting it in an inefficient manner.
With the 4-piece bonus and the glyph, we will be getting an 11% healing bonus per HoT on the target. That's pretty solid. Add to that the extra 25% crit rating from Nature's Bounty, and we have a spell that would seriously content with 3.0.9 Regrowth, let alone 3.1.
The one major snag is that this will make haste even less attractive, because with Nature's grace, crits on Nourish will drop us below a 1 second cast time and we will be getting clipped by the GCD. If the gear keeps scaling the way it currently is, as gear improves I'll be able to drop Celestial Focus and Nature's Grace and put those talent points elsewhere.
Regarding the Innervate change, I will wait and see how mana regeneration plays out before replacing my Lifebloom glyph. With Nourish efficiency depending on active HoTs, that extra second of grace for Lifebloom may come in handy.
I just tested on PTR. I healed myself for 4k with 1.7k overheal Nourish. Next, Living Seed healed me for 1.7k after I got hit by a fire in IF. Meaning Living Seed always heals for 30% of the heal; it doesn't matter how much you overhealed.
You didn't prove anything. You had 100% ineffective on that heal, and thats what seed hit for. If you get some effective and some overheal, we need to see if seeds going off just the overheal amount as the patch notes seem to say, or if it's off the total heal regardless.
You didn't prove anything. You had 100% ineffective on that heal, and thats what seed hit for. If you get some effective and some overheal, we need to see if seeds going off just the overheal amount as the patch notes seem to say, or if it's off the total heal regardless.
Let us know, I'd appreciate it.
Doesn't his test show the full heal amount? (assuming his numbers are good estimations)
4k + 1.7k = 5.7k
5.7 / 3 = 1.9
His living seed healed for 1.7. If you account for some obvious rounding, it sounds like the full heal, no? Otherwise I'd expect his living seed to only heal for 1.3.
I'd like to see more solid number, but this seems in line with the logical thinking behind buffing living seed to offset the nurf to Regrowth crit.
As a side question; Does a Regrowth Crit change the amount of the HOT? (I dont think it does, but I've never tested)
Last edited by bandophahita : 02/24/09 at 5:08 PM.
As a side question; Does a Regrowth Crit change the amount of the HOT? (I dont think it does, but I've never tested)
No it does not.
PTR numbers for people who still cling to some silly note like limpets:
Nourish heal 781 (4684 overhealing)
Living Seed heals for 346 (1293 overhealing)
Nourish heal 0 (6388 overhealing)
Living Seed heals for 375 (1542 overhealing)
Nourish heal 5480 (0 overhealing)
Living Seed heals for 1644 (0 overhealing)
I would math out that they are 30% but honestly the mix of no overhealing, all overhealing and mix of both is enough to satisfy the requirement that it doesn't matter and that it is based on total healing, enjoy.
EDIT: ignore below, playered did a real test and answered our worries.
The patch notes say that living seed now uses our INEFFECTIVE amount.
He healed for 100% overheal, 100% ineffective, so according to the patch notes, of course it's the full amount and his math is correct.
The worry is that it isn't based off total heal, just ineffective. We need to see heals that are partially effective/partially overheal, and if the seed is still based off the TOTAL heal amount (and not how much was effective like now, or how much was ineffective like the notes seem to indicate) we're ok.
His test confirmed that the patch note is correct, but it didn't confirm whether it's a typo or not and whether we're all getting what we want.
EDIT: ignore below, playered did a real test and answered our worries.
The patch notes say that living seed now uses our INEFFECTIVE amount.
He healed for 100% overheal, 100% ineffective, so according to the patch notes, of course it's the full amount and his math is correct.
The worry is that it isn't based off total heal, just ineffective. We need to see heals that are partially effective/partially overheal, and if the seed is still based off the TOTAL heal amount (and not how much was effective like now, or how much was ineffective like the notes seem to indicate) we're ok.
His test confirmed that the patch note is correct, but it didn't confirm whether it's a typo or not and whether we're all getting what we want.
"I healed myself for 4k with 1.7k overheal Nourish."
Granted, the wording isn't perfect, but I really don't get how you get "100% overheal" from that sentence. Even if you didn't get it right away, at least go figure that a 1.7k Living Seed can only come from a 5.7k heal, which should make it clear that I meant 4k effective healing and 1.7k overhealing on Nourish.
This is a communication failure from mmo-champion. The notes on the third party site state, "Living Seed: This talent now accounts for your ineffective healing, rather than effective" which indicates that the seed is 30% of overheal whereas the official patch notes state, "Living Seed: This talent now accounts for total healing including overhealing" which indicates that living seed is 30% of the total crit heal regardless of overhealing/effective healing. This is supported by BOTH Nofair and Playered. Nofair's test had both overhealing and effective. The moral of the story: third party sites are not always accurate.
Currently, Wild Growth isn't included on Revitalize's tooltip, but it is affected by it now. Each 1s tick can proc, I saw a few back-to-back ones. Both Rejuv and WG can proc Revitalize at 100% hp. It's nice, but I'm thinking I would rather put those points into Tranquil Spirit now.
Currently, Wild Growth isn't included on Revitalize's tooltip, but it is affected by it now. Each 1s tick can proc, I saw a few back-to-back ones. Both Rejuv and WG can proc Revitalize at 100% hp. It's nice, but I'm thinking I would rather put those points into Tranquil Spirit now.
I do not think you realize just how incredibly overpowered the Wild Growth aspect of Revitalize is at the current % (same as RJ?)
I want it nerfed as soon as possible because it will put us in a situation where we are 'forced' to use Wild Growth on cooldown every cooldown AoE damage or not.
Something like 15% on RJ/RG and 5% on Wild Growth (and possibly Lifebloom too) would be a much better situation to be in as it turns things back to "perk of using ability x when needed" rather than "reason to use ability x as often as possible".
I do not think you realize just how incredibly overpowered the Wild Growth aspect of Revitalize is at the current % (same as RJ?)
Personally, I'm just not a fan of procs while healing. I like steady/controllable bonuses. But, yeah, it could create some gross situations of stacking Trees just to roll as many WGs on the DPS as possible. Perhaps a higher % but with a shared ICD on the target?
it could create some gross situations of stacking Trees just to roll as many WGs on the DPS as possible. Perhaps a higher % but with a shared ICD on the target?
I doubt there will be stacking. Maybe druids stacking sounds good for progress fights (Rebirth/Innervates) but Wild Growth revitalize being the reason for it is far from reasonable. The power regen from this ability is not huge for some DPS and it can't be controlled sometimes (pets/minions), plus, Wild Growth isn't a cheap ability to use, specially considering the new mana changes.
I hope they completely redesign Replenish, and give us something like they gave warlocks; a chance to crit with our hots, probably something based on our current crit so it doesn't sounds like an OP talent.
If left at the current rate, each wild growth cast will get on average, 105% of the revitalize effect. With the glyph, this can hit six people.
If used on six casters with mana pools of 20,000, this would restore an average total of 1260 mana, more than the cost of the actual spell. Distrubuted among 6 players of course.
Doesn't quite seem right.
Revitalize on live, on rejuvenation gives you 90% of the revitalize effect on a single target. With wild growth, it gets about 7x the total effect.
I would think it would make more sense to have rejuvenation be 20-25% per tick, and wild growth be 5%. Something like that.
edit: At the risk of having a thousand posts just saying "I'll use x, y, and z glyph" I will say the new restoration glyphs make for some interesting choices.
Essentially I'll have four glyphs: Swiftmend, Regrowth, Wild Growth, and Nourish glyphs competing for three slots. Others may value the lifebloom glyph as well.
I doubt I could live without swiftmend, Regrowth, wild growth, and nourish glyphs are all nearly 20% situational boosts to the respective spells. I think it would all come down to the content I'm doing. A sixth target on wild growth may not be terribly useful in a 10 man for example.
I can actually see ending up with two resto specs using the dual spec system just to cover two different glyph combinations for different encounter styles. We have Nourish/Regrowth/Wild Growth/Innervate/Lifebloom/Swiftmend for potentially very useful glyphs. There's a significant amount of headache trying to pick just three for general use.
I doubt I could live without swiftmend, Regrowth, wild growth, and nourish glyphs are all nearly 20% situational boosts to the respective spells. I think it would all come down to the content I'm doing. A sixth target on wild growth may not be terribly useful in a 10 man for example.
I am having a hard time seeing why one would want the Regrowth and Nourish glyphs together such that one would get substantial use out of both -- they seem almost mutually exclusive.
edit: 6th WG target would work well with Revitalize, obviously (even if it's nerfed to 5% chance per WG tick, as it should).
I can actually see ending up with two resto specs using the dual spec system just to cover two different glyph combinations for different encounter styles. We have Nourish/Regrowth/Wild Growth/Innervate/Lifebloom/Swiftmend for potentially very useful glyphs. There's a significant amount of headache trying to pick just three for general use.
We haven't seen the item that Inscription will produce to allow on the fly Dual spec changes, but considering you can do it at a Lexicon of Power in town, it's not outside the realm of possibility that the item will also allow Glyph changes in the field, allowing people to use Glyphs more like consumables.
We haven't seen the item that Inscription will produce to allow on the fly Dual spec changes, but considering you can do it at a Lexicon of Power in town, it's not outside the realm of possibility that the item will also allow Glyph changes in the field, allowing people to use Glyphs more like consumables.
In the current incarnation of dual spec it is just a 5s cast time and does not require a lexicon. Apparently the mobile lexicon is still up in the air if they plan to keep it. Blue post source
The main glyphs, in the current state, would be Swiftmend (which I think is pretty much mandatory, especially if you have more than one restoration druid in your raid), Regrowth, Nourish, Wild Growth, Lifebloom and Innervate (on very mana constrained encounters maybe ?). Regrowth and Nourish I find pretty antithetical and will be mainly used on a tank healing assignment. Wild Growth is pretty straightforward, and will be used for any encounter where raid damage outweighs tank damage. I personnally like Lifebloom but it's the one that I think we will free us from. Innervate on very constrained mana situation maybe, the maths will decide the fall or the rise of this one.
All in all, I'm pretty happy with what they did so far, if I don't glance at priests' changes too much.
The choice of glyphs depends on what your role is, as dictated by raid composition and the encounter. Barring exteme cases, I don't really see druids as spamming a tank constantly. The classic healing method is hot cushion on the tanks and raid healing the rest of the gcds. As such, my default glyphs will probably be lifebloom and WG, both of which support the raid healer approach. Swiftmend will probably stay as well since our healing is so gcd-dependent. The nourish glyph, on the other hand, looks strong in theory but I don't feel like it supports what I do in raids normally.
I do hope glyph switching in the field will be implemented. Switching to the nourish glyph, especially if it stacks with the 4t7 bonus (my guess is that it doesn't, but we'll see), is situationally very powerful. I probably won't waste my off-spec on it, though, as being able to switch to a different role althogether with a click on a button sounds more attractive. I'm still not sold on nourish as a raid heal. The gain you get from NG is minimal and having 40+ % crit on both nourish and RG means that the casting time will be pretty close a lot of the time.
The choice of glyphs depends on what your role is, as dictated by raid composition and the encounter. Barring exteme cases, I don't really see druids as spamming a tank constantly. The classic healing method is hot cushion on the tanks and raid healing the rest of the gcds. As such, my default glyphs will probably be lifebloom and WG, both of which support the raid healer approach. Swiftmend will probably stay as well since our healing is so gcd-dependent. The nourish glyph, on the other hand, looks strong in theory but I don't feel like it supports what I do in raids normally.
I do hope glyph switching in the field will be implemented. Switching to the nourish glyph, especially if it stacks with the 4t7 bonus (my guess is that it doesn't, but we'll see), is situationally very powerful. I probably won't waste my off-spec on it, though, as being able to switch to a different role althogether with a click on a button sounds more attractive. I'm still not sold on nourish as a raid heal. The gain you get from NG is minimal and having 40+ % crit on both nourish and RG means that the casting time will be pretty close a lot of the time.
Blizzard has stated that in order to use dual spec, players should use a Lexicon of Power, which can be created by inscribers and used by anyone. Therefore it is safe to assume that changing glyphs in the field will be a possiblity.
From my experience with Regrowth and Nourish is that Regrowth glyph is bad for raid healing since most people you'd heal with a regrowth won't have it before, and if they have it and you're using 4x T7 it's much better and faster to use Nourish. However, Nourish could work for raid healing since you will be spreading Wild Growths around as well as Lifeblooms and Rejuvinations.
And for MT healing, Nourish wins by far, not just that it works greatly with T7 bonus, but it's also much more HPM if we take into account the talents reducing Nourish mana cost. Plus, if you're using Nourish for MT healing, you can ditch Nature's Grace since with Nourish you'll still be limited by the GCD.
Add to that Nourish gets 4% more critical strike rating from Nature's Majesty, and that's more Living Seed procs and more healing in general.
I think you are underestimating the regrowth hot though. Even if you're not getting the 20% bonus you are leaving a hot to tick which can also be swiftmended if damage continues. And you can't rely on wild growth as your nourish bonus when its not always going to end up on the targets you want.
I just don't feel like nourish is a good 25 man raid heal. For 10 mans/Heroics when you don't have a pally/priest it might be worthwhile, but in 25 man's you should have a pally/priest to fulfill that direct healing role, leaving the druids to do what they do best, spam hots/wg's on the raid. Even on a fight like patchwerk I'm rolling hots on all the tanks rather than picking one to spam heal. Thats what the other healers are for.
Last edited by kywirelessguy : 02/25/09 at 10:51 AM.
Blizzard has stated that in order to use dual spec, players should use a Lexicon of Power, which can be created by inscribers and used by anyone. Therefore it is safe to assume that changing glyphs in the field will be a possiblity.
This is no longer true. Switching from spec to spec now only requires a 5 second casttime spell, that can only be used out-of-combat. They also made other changes such as it being available as of level 40.
The lexicon of power is not yet introduced, but Blizzard is still considering implementing it. But it will not be a requirement for switching specs.
This is no longer true. Switching from spec to spec now only requires a 5 second casttime spell, that can only be used out-of-combat. They also made other changes such as it being available as of level 40.
The lexicon of power is not yet introduced, but Blizzard is still considering implementing it. But it will not be a requirement for switching specs.
I think this is an exclusive PTR situation, since they want you to test the dual specs and have fewer restrictions for more intense testing.
02/24/09, 4:15 PM
